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Archive => CV Classics - The Best of... => Topic started by: 22 Yards on April 29, 2006, 07:41:18 PM

Title: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on April 29, 2006, 07:41:18 PM
Let me introduce myself to the forum a little. I came to know about this group a while ago through my nephew. When I checked out this forum, I was completely surprised to see the intensified intelligent conversations which is a rarity. So, I thought may be jump in and share my old time thoughts a bit here. (To see how we do the posting and all that stuff, I posted an article of Jones earlier today)

Raju Bharatan, a while ago, sometime during last year during our ZIM tour said this. I dont have his quote but he said something like this. "Its easy to sack Sourav, break with VVS, sneak past Anil, dump Zaheer. But straightaway, how you can find substitutes for these proven performers. We are doing the same mistake as we did with Sourav, with Greg. Putting all eggs in one basket. World Cup is not too far. If a team is sick at heart, youth can be no medicine"

So after that we watched India do a 6-1,4-1,2-2 and 6-1 to their opponents, is it safe for us to assume Raju's question has been answered? Or we have to wait for WI and SA? What if something goes against us, would we have enough time for the World Cup? So would it been fine to keep the above mentioned players in the circle? The same question that bothered Aussies in the late 80's.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Blwe_torch on April 29, 2006, 07:52:49 PM
The problem ( I hope there is none!), I feel, is that GC thinks, with him around, whats the big need of other super-stars?!
A egoistic super-star like GC normally believes that he can do with raw youth and talent, with him providing the experience!
Lets hope, this concoction works for India! :)

As for me, I miss India's Golden brigade...SG, SRT, RD, VVS, AK..........although Dravid is still there and a few others are just about hanging around. SG has been sadly shoved into the dark corner.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on April 29, 2006, 08:04:41 PM
Blwe_torch,
Even if we ignore the super star status of the individuals involved, would youth alone can bring us the WC and go further. If we observe all the World Cups, battle hardened noses like Vivian,Allan,Jones,Graham,Imran,Sachin(twice or thrice),Steve,Aravind, Ricky etc. were the ones who helped their teams in succeeding/succeeding to a level at the biggest stage. If we go by history, we would most likely put pressure on Sachin. Will he able to repeat the magic once again at this point? Or On a positive note, will the youngsters (now) become slightly experienced by that time?
Sourav and John did the same mistake by putting emphasis on youth. All they got was Zaheer bowling everywhere in the Final.
I read one of the discussions earlier today (thats a pretty long one) about Venkat Sai. His case relates to the same question.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Blwe_torch on April 29, 2006, 08:15:47 PM
I agree, in the name of inducting youth we have short-changed quite a few careers of great players.
Unfortunately, we can just watch and debate. And hope, that things go right for India!

When Juergen Klinsmann, the German coach prefers Jens Lehmann over Oliver Kahn, I can smell a formula for success. But when GC does the same with SG ( my favorite player), my sentiments are different!
Are we clouded by prejudice...or is it that GC is clouded by prejudice?! :)
Only time will tell.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on April 29, 2006, 08:44:10 PM
Blwe_torch,
Sourav's case is a slightly different one. I was priviliged to meet him twice so that will make my opinion partial. But whatever route Greg has taken, he has to deal with it. I think Sourav's oneday and test credentials were mixed for some pure non cricketing reason. Keeping Sourav aside, what bothers me is the cases of Venkat Sai and Anil. Having said that, I am pretty sure Greg knows what he is doing. Ofcourse he was one of the Aussie selectors who went against traditional selections and made Aussies what they have been. I hope there is some valid reason for him ignoring somethings he said in his book "Making of Champions".But as you said, lets hope for the better.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Blwe_torch on April 29, 2006, 08:54:02 PM
To introduce fresh blood in a system........to eradicate old ways and value.......to get rid of 'cancer'..( chop it off incase of gangrene)..........all the above is one way of achieving success.
Everyone knows this, and it is not as if, GC is showing us the way.
But what I am watching with interest is that GC is going abt doing this......
Well, that takes some doing no doubt!
In the process he has upset a whole lot of people, and if he doesn't succeed, he will make an ass of himself!
I am sure, he is very much aware of the down-side!
It is like the grand old man's Final Gamble!
Lets see...what comes through.
The problem is that the victims of this Grand Gamble won't get much time to recover, once He is done and over! :)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: prfsr on April 29, 2006, 09:07:08 PM

I think an important question is -- if India wins the WC, will that make all of GC's moves correct? Conversely, if we do not have a good result, does that alone imply GC did many or all things wrong? In other words, to what extent does the ends (to be known in future) justify the (current) means?

-P
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: ramshorns on April 29, 2006, 09:12:35 PM
22 Yards:Welcome to this DG on behalf of everyone.  I liked the first few of your posts.  Hence I sent down a applause already for that.  Looking forward to good debates in the future.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on April 29, 2006, 09:14:32 PM
Blwe_torch,
Very true indeed. To a person,like me, who has been a great admirer of Greg's batting and who puts Sourav in between David and Brian in grace, its really quite 'no way to decide' situation.
Prfsr,
Whatever the future holds for us, Greg or Sourav, it will be good as long as the people involved are taking calculating risks. Sometimes, ends wont justify the means but I am pretty sure, we,fans, will be in a position at that time to understand that.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Blwe_torch on April 29, 2006, 09:14:51 PM
Ends need not justify classy means.
I was arguing in another thread on G R Vishwanath, about an innings of his in the 1979 WC...against WI...in which he played brilliantly but for a lost cause. That loss, I believe don't take the sheen away from his class.
But here GC' s ways are cutting short important careers, proven track-records, etc. His success or failure aside, what do we make of SG/VVS/AK's career?
Do  they have a right to justice?
Can we sacrifice them in the name of India's well-being following GC's belief?
Are GC's personal bias/agendas bigger than India's cause ( luckily, they are on the same direction as of now)?
What if GC's personal bias/agendas clash with India's interests? :)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on April 29, 2006, 09:16:46 PM
Thank you Ramshorns and everyone else on this forum. I hope I can be of some help in giving my old thoughts to this energetic fan base :)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on April 29, 2006, 09:21:18 PM
Blwe_torch,
If the team gains more than what they sacrifice, then its all well and good. But as you said, its a gamble. May be one of the biggest gambles cricket has seen.
I think it would have been a lot better if someone tells Anil and VVS, that they are only in one scheme of things (Anil must have got it already). VVS is a great test batsman. I hope these things don't affect his career.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Blwe_torch on April 29, 2006, 09:24:46 PM
Blwe_torch,
If the team gains more than what they sacrifice, then its all well and good. But as you said, its a gamble. May be one of the biggest gambles cricket has seen

I have highlighted your phrase.....one of the biggest gambles cricket has seen.
Rings very ominous!
Unfortunately, I hope, one of my favorite players do not make it to the history book...thanks to this gamble! :)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: pieterSAN on April 29, 2006, 10:28:52 PM
I had been enjoying the comments made by everyone until of course, people decided their points needed to emphasized with some superlatives.

BEFORE                        AFTER
V Sehwag                     V Sehwag
SR Tendulkar                 R Dravid
MS Dhoni                      MS Dhoni
S Ganguly                    Yvuraj Singh
R Dravid                       Y Venugpal Rao
Yuvraj Singh                 SK Raina
D Mongia                      IK Pathan
AB Agarkar                     R Powar
Harbhajan Singh             AB Agarkar
Z Khan                         Harbhajan Singh
A Nehra.                       S Sreesanth

(As you know Sachin is out because of injury and there are concerns that he may not be able to make the WC.Sehwag has also struggled of late. As a result, we have tried options like Uthappa)

Notice that VVS was never really a part of the picture - Kaif was favored to him. Kumble too was rarely a part of the ODI format for reason that are very similar. It has to be noted that in the last 20 ODIs Kumble averaged 48 as opposed to 30 for his career.

The only exclusion that seriously affects team experience is the exclusion of Ganguly. This is definitely a negative. The other possible exclusion is Tendulkar. It will be interesting to see if Ganguly comes into the picture if Tendulkar has to pull out.However, if Ganguly is the only one of these two not on the plane to West Indies, then it would be difficult to call it a gamble. I think it would be sensible.

Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on April 29, 2006, 10:43:06 PM
Jiet,
As you said, VVS and Anil were never in our regular ODI set up. But the recent statements by these two players gives us an impression that they are still hopeful of making it to the ODI squad.Rightly so. As I said earlier, someone concerned should tell them what the management thinks about them and where they stand with respect to ODIs. Coming to Sourav, the reason why I think it is a gamble is, he was excluded from the team under highly sensitive situations. It seems like the cricketing base is divided into two parts. So whatever the futures holds for Indian team, Sourav and Greg, would have to pay the price. If India wins the WC, then the calls for Sourav's inclusion will deteriorate. Otherwise happens, Greg will be the one who has to decide on his future. Very high stakes involved in here. Only a few incidents like this happened before as far as my watching cricket is concerned.
Keeping everything aside, experience or no experience, the only person who has to be on the plane is Sachin. He deserves a World Cup medal for all his efforts.
By the way Jiet, your comparison is very interesting. I want to share my thoughts on that later today.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: justforkix on April 29, 2006, 11:03:37 PM
So whatever the futures holds for Indian team, Sourav and Greg, would have to pay the price. If India wins the WC, then the calls for Sourav's inclusion will deteriorate. Otherwise happens, Greg will be the one who has to decide on his future. Very high stakes involved in here.

I dunno. with or without SG, VVS, AK, I don't think we can't beat Australia. So, winning WC07 is a moot pt IMO  :) :).

The Aussie XI for WC07 possibly could be Hayden/Katich, Gilly, Punter, Martyn, Symonds, Hussey, Clarke, Warne/Hogg, Lee, Dizzy, McGrath. Another name for this squad is The Invincibles  :( :(. Good luck to whichever team wants to beat this XI ;)

Maybe ICC should introduce a new rule, which restricts teams to have only 4-5 match winners, and not 11 !!!!!
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on April 29, 2006, 11:13:16 PM
While winning WC-07 would be more than thrilling, that is not the yardstick to measure the success of the ODI team - that is done over quite a few series and how we play in different conditions against diff teams. If we do well in WC (semis is prob min we expect, entering finals will be real good), and if we do well in other series, then IMO, our ODI team can be considered improved. That would be the yardstick to judge, not just one tournament.

Cannot decide based on just one match or one series.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: pieterSAN on April 29, 2006, 11:17:09 PM
So whatever the futures holds for Indian team, Sourav and Greg, would have to pay the price. If India wins the WC, then the calls for Sourav's inclusion will deteriorate. Otherwise happens, Greg will be the one who has to decide on his future. Very high stakes involved in here.

I dunno. with or without SG, VVS, AK, I don't think we can't beat Australia. So, winning WC07 is a moot pt IMO  :) :).

The Aussie XI for WC07 possibly could be Hayden/Katich, Gilly, Punter, Martyn, Symonds, Hussey, Clarke, Warne/Hogg, Lee, Dizzy, McGrath. Another name for this squad is The Invincibles  :( :(. Good luck to whichever team wants to beat this XI ;)

Maybe ICC should introduce a new rule, which restricts teams to have only 4-5 match winners, and not 11 !!!!!

Excellent, Excellent post!

I said this a while back when Hussey started off with a bang. The Aussies are going to be real tough to beat. Having Symonds, Clarke and Hussey at 5,6,7 is simply mind-boggling. I mean it is just sick.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: flute202020 on April 29, 2006, 11:40:34 PM
While winning WC-07 would be more than thrilling, that is not the yardstick to measure the success of the ODI team - that is done over quite a few series and how we play in different conditions against diff teams. If we do well in WC (semis is prob min we expect, entering finals will be real good), and if we do well in other series, then IMO, our ODI team can be considered improved. That would be the yardstick to judge, not just one tournament.

Cannot decide based on just one match or one series.
spot on fineleg. applause for you. While this is the ideal way of evaluating the team, I don't think it will turn out this way. There are quite a few indignant fans of former stars like SG & VVS who are waiting and ready to draw blood if we fail to perform well in WC07. There is no benefit of doubt or evaluation after WC, if we don't get WC, "I told ya" statements will be all over the place on this DG.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on April 29, 2006, 11:56:07 PM
justforkix,
I really believe this Indian ODI side can beat this Australian side. While its nice to applaud the opposition, but the same way it can be said about our team too. Symonds, Hussey and Clark are brilliant so is our own Dhoni,Yuvraj and Raina. For Adam Gilchrist, Ricky Ponting, Hayden we have our own Sachin,Rahul and Sehwag. I honestly believe our side can beat this Aussie side if we play the match tomorrow. No, this is not just some patriotic feeling but whats good about our team is the process is very well in place, they are doing the basics just right. And moreover, the Aussie ODI side has been declining in my opinion. Most of their recent ODI wins were unconvincing. Having said that,in my opinion, two players will decide which team will take the World Cup home, Irfan Pathan and Glenn McGrath.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: ramshorns on April 29, 2006, 11:58:57 PM
While winning WC-07 would be more than thrilling, that is not the yardstick to measure the success of the ODI team - that is done over quite a few series and how we play in different conditions against diff teams. If we do well in WC (semis is prob min we expect, entering finals will be real good), and if we do well in other series, then IMO, our ODI team can be considered improved. That would be the yardstick to judge, not just one tournament.

Cannot decide based on just one match or one series.
spot on fineleg. applause for you. While this is the ideal way of evaluating the team, I don't think it will turn out this way. There are quite a few indignant fans of former stars like SG & VVS who are waiting and ready to draw blood if we fail to perform well in WC07. There is no benefit of doubt or evaluation after WC, if we don't get WC, "I told ya" statements will be all over the place on this DG.
And there are some idiotic fans who have no respect for the greats and a ZIP when it comes to cricketing IQ who know nothing about the game but are only obssesed at showing guys they do not like in poor light.  For them as long as their agendas and the players they like are in the team that satisfies them.  What is fair is not important to them.   Then accuse others of wanting TEAM India to fail when probably in their rotten minds have such thoughts.  It is disgraceful to call the fans of these greats indignant when the same fans go out of the way to support this new look team.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: flute202020 on April 30, 2006, 12:26:41 AM
While winning WC-07 would be more than thrilling, that is not the yardstick to measure the success of the ODI team - that is done over quite a few series and how we play in different conditions against diff teams. If we do well in WC (semis is prob min we expect, entering finals will be real good), and if we do well in other series, then IMO, our ODI team can be considered improved. That would be the yardstick to judge, not just one tournament.

Cannot decide based on just one match or one series.
spot on fineleg. applause for you. While this is the ideal way of evaluating the team, I don't think it will turn out this way. There are quite a few indignant fans of former stars like SG & VVS who are waiting and ready to draw blood if we fail to perform well in WC07. There is no benefit of doubt or evaluation after WC, if we don't get WC, "I told ya" statements will be all over the place on this DG.
And there are some idiotic fans who have no respect for the greats and a ZIP when it comes to cricketing IQ who know nothing about the game but are only obssesed at showing guys they do not like in poor light.  For them as long as their agendas and the players they like are in the team that satisfies them.  What is fair is not important to them.   Then accuse others of wanting TEAM India to fail when probably in their rotten minds have such thoughts.  It is dsgraceful to call the fans of these greats indignant when the same fans go out of the way to support this new look team.

Here is indignant meaning from Merriam Webster dictionary. I gave you a really long rope and you keep attacking me. Time will not and did not freeze with VVS or Gundappa, things changed a lot in cricket and to win ODIs, artistry and lazy drives is not going to help. Get this into your head and you might get out of your irritable mood. BTW, before attacking people, check the meaning of words and you will know who is being an idiot.

Main Entry: in∑dig∑na∑tion
Pronunciation: "in-dig-'nA-sh&n
Function: noun
: anger aroused by something unjust, unworthy, or mean
synonym see ANGER

This is my last attempt at making you get into sensible debate. Any more personal attacks and you will get a fitting reply from me.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: justforkix on April 30, 2006, 12:32:57 AM
justforkix,
I really believe this Indian ODI side can beat this Australian side. While its nice to applaud the opposition, but the same way it can be said about our team too. Symonds, Hussey and Clark are brilliant so is our own Dhoni,Yuvraj and Raina. For Adam Gilchrist, Ricky Ponting, Hayden we have our own Sachin,Rahul and Sehwag. I honestly believe our side can beat this Aussie side if we play the match tomorrow. No, this is not just some patriotic feeling but whats good about our team is the process is very well in place, they are doing the basics just right. And moreover, the Aussie ODI side has been declining in my opinion. Most of their recent ODI wins were unconvincing. Having said that,in my opinion, two players will decide which team will take the World Cup home, Irfan Pathan and Glenn McGrath.

I applaud your upbeat outlook and optimism  :)

But, it is Indian batting vs. Aussie bowling and Aussie batting vs. Indian bowling.

For me, there are 2 main questions :

(1)  How will IP, Raina and MSD (left out the proven performers yuvi, kaif, SRT, RD and VS) respond to some disciplined and good bowling by say McGrath, Dizzy, Lee, Warne/Hogg and Symonds (IMO, Warnie will surely play in WC07 and Symo is an underrated ODI bowler).

(2) How will our bowlers IP, AA, SS, MP, RPS, HS, RP respond to some brutal onslaughts by Hayden, Gilly, Punter, Hussey, Symo.

At least Q1 is manageable because we have some experienced batters. But, I have no hope w.r.t. Q2. Our bowlers will simply succumb. Because even very good bowlers have not handled these psychos' mad hitting !!!! Hopefully they can prove me wrong  ;)

Anywayz, the ICC Champions Trophy game vs. Aus will be a good indicator  :)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: ramshorns on April 30, 2006, 12:35:43 AM
While winning WC-07 would be more than thrilling, that is not the yardstick to measure the success of the ODI team - that is done over quite a few series and how we play in different conditions against diff teams. If we do well in WC (semis is prob min we expect, entering finals will be real good), and if we do well in other series, then IMO, our ODI team can be considered improved. That would be the yardstick to judge, not just one tournament.

Cannot decide based on just one match or one series.
spot on fineleg. applause for you. While this is the ideal way of evaluating the team, I don't think it will turn out this way. There are quite a few indignant fans of former stars like SG & VVS who are waiting and ready to draw blood if we fail to perform well in WC07. There is no benefit of doubt or evaluation after WC, if we don't get WC, "I told ya" statements will be all over the place on this DG.
And there are some idiotic fans who have no respect for the greats and a ZIP when it comes to cricketing IQ who know nothing about the game but are only obssesed at showing guys they do not like in poor light.  For them as long as their agendas and the players they like are in the team that satisfies them.  What is fair is not important to them.   Then accuse others of wanting TEAM India to fail when probably in their rotten minds have such thoughts.  It is dsgraceful to call the fans of these greats indignant when the same fans go out of the way to support this new look team.

Here is indignant meaning from Merriam Webster dictionary. I gave you a really long rope and you keep attacking me. Time will not and did not freeze with VVS or Gundappa, things changed a lot in cricket and to win ODIs, artistry and lazy drives is not going to help. Get this into your head and you might get out of your irritable mood. BTW, before attacking people, check the meaning of words and you will know who is being an idiot.

Main Entry: in∑dig∑na∑tion
Pronunciation: "in-dig-'nA-sh&n
Function: noun
: anger aroused by something unjust, unworthy, or mean
synonym see ANGER

This is my last attempt at making you get into sensible debate. Any more personal attacks and you will get a fitting reply from me.
Do not try to put a spin on things Mr.English.  My reply was apt and will continue so.  Till this point I was not personal either, now if you try being indignant and take subtle jabs at DG members then may be want to take it outside.  Any how what is it is with Vishy and VVS when you want to make this personal.  I will let you take the first punch and will respond accordingly.  For the record one of the gent is still active and playing.  So that tells how you are thinking.  That explains who is in a irritable mood.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: flute202020 on April 30, 2006, 12:39:29 AM
While winning WC-07 would be more than thrilling, that is not the yardstick to measure the success of the ODI team - that is done over quite a few series and how we play in different conditions against diff teams. If we do well in WC (semis is prob min we expect, entering finals will be real good), and if we do well in other series, then IMO, our ODI team can be considered improved. That would be the yardstick to judge, not just one tournament.

Cannot decide based on just one match or one series.
spot on fineleg. applause for you. While this is the ideal way of evaluating the team, I don't think it will turn out this way. There are quite a few indignant fans of former stars like SG & VVS who are waiting and ready to draw blood if we fail to perform well in WC07. There is no benefit of doubt or evaluation after WC, if we don't get WC, "I told ya" statements will be all over the place on this DG.
And there are some idiotic fans who have no respect for the greats and a ZIP when it comes to cricketing IQ who know nothing about the game but are only obssesed at showing guys they do not like in poor light.  For them as long as their agendas and the players they like are in the team that satisfies them.  What is fair is not important to them.   Then accuse others of wanting TEAM India to fail when probably in their rotten minds have such thoughts.  It is dsgraceful to call the fans of these greats indignant when the same fans go out of the way to support this new look team.

Here is indignant meaning from Merriam Webster dictionary. I gave you a really long rope and you keep attacking me. Time will not and did not freeze with VVS or Gundappa, things changed a lot in cricket and to win ODIs, artistry and lazy drives is not going to help. Get this into your head and you might get out of your irritable mood. BTW, before attacking people, check the meaning of words and you will know who is being an idiot.

Main Entry: in∑dig∑na∑tion
Pronunciation: "in-dig-'nA-sh&n
Function: noun
: anger aroused by something unjust, unworthy, or mean
synonym see ANGER

This is my last attempt at making you get into sensible debate. Any more personal attacks and you will get a fitting reply from me.
Do not try to put a spin on things Mr.English.  My reply was apt and will continue so.  Till this point I was not personal either, now if you try being indignant and take subtle jabs at DG members then may be want to take it outside.  Any how what is it is with Vishy and VVS when you want to make this personal.  I will let you take the first punch and will respond accordingly.  For the record one of the gent is still active and playing.  So that tells how you are thinking.  That explains who is in a irritable mood.
I used a word and I gave the meaning of that word, where is the spin? Again, if you are not sure of meaning of words, plz check before calling people idiotic.

Last I checked, calling DG member idiot is a personal attack. You owe me an apology.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: ramshorns on April 30, 2006, 12:54:13 AM
While winning WC-07 would be more than thrilling, that is not the yardstick to measure the success of the ODI team - that is done over quite a few series and how we play in different conditions against diff teams. If we do well in WC (semis is prob min we expect, entering finals will be real good), and if we do well in other series, then IMO, our ODI team can be considered improved. That would be the yardstick to judge, not just one tournament.

Cannot decide based on just one match or one series.
spot on fineleg. applause for you. While this is the ideal way of evaluating the team, I don't think it will turn out this way. There are quite a few indignant fans of former stars like SG & VVS who are waiting and ready to draw blood if we fail to perform well in WC07. There is no benefit of doubt or evaluation after WC, if we don't get WC, "I told ya" statements will be all over the place on this DG.
And there are some idiotic fans who have no respect for the greats and a ZIP when it comes to cricketing IQ who know nothing about the game but are only obssesed at showing guys they do not like in poor light.  For them as long as their agendas and the players they like are in the team that satisfies them.  What is fair is not important to them.   Then accuse others of wanting TEAM India to fail when probably in their rotten minds have such thoughts.  It is dsgraceful to call the fans of these greats indignant when the same fans go out of the way to support this new look team.

Here is indignant meaning from Merriam Webster dictionary. I gave you a really long rope and you keep attacking me. Time will not and did not freeze with VVS or Gundappa, things changed a lot in cricket and to win ODIs, artistry and lazy drives is not going to help. Get this into your head and you might get out of your irritable mood. BTW, before attacking people, check the meaning of words and you will know who is being an idiot.

Main Entry: in∑dig∑na∑tion
Pronunciation: "in-dig-'nA-sh&n
Function: noun
: anger aroused by something unjust, unworthy, or mean
synonym see ANGER

This is my last attempt at making you get into sensible debate. Any more personal attacks and you will get a fitting reply from me.
Do not try to put a spin on things Mr.English.  My reply was apt and will continue so.  Till this point I was not personal either, now if you try being indignant and take subtle jabs at DG members then may be want to take it outside.  Any how what is it is with Vishy and VVS when you want to make this personal.  I will let you take the first punch and will respond accordingly.  For the record one of the gent is still active and playing.  So that tells how you are thinking.  That explains who is in a irritable mood.
I used a word and I gave the meaning of that word, where is the spin? Again, if you are not sure of meaning of words, plz check before calling people idiotic.

Last I checked, calling DG member idiot is a personal attack. You owe me an apology.
Again read your post.  When you have the guts to call the fans of other players not in the team "who are waiting and ready to draw blood if we fail" then expect a fitting reply.  That is a bigger deal to me than calling you an Idiot or whatever.  If you are willing to send me an apology for huring me personally being a VVS fan then mine will follow. I hope you reconcile and take it back first. Then see what happens.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: flute202020 on April 30, 2006, 01:08:25 AM
While winning WC-07 would be more than thrilling, that is not the yardstick to measure the success of the ODI team - that is done over quite a few series and how we play in different conditions against diff teams. If we do well in WC (semis is prob min we expect, entering finals will be real good), and if we do well in other series, then IMO, our ODI team can be considered improved. That would be the yardstick to judge, not just one tournament.

Cannot decide based on just one match or one series.
spot on fineleg. applause for you. While this is the ideal way of evaluating the team, I don't think it will turn out this way. There are quite a few indignant fans of former stars like SG & VVS who are waiting and ready to draw blood if we fail to perform well in WC07. There is no benefit of doubt or evaluation after WC, if we don't get WC, "I told ya" statements will be all over the place on this DG.
And there are some idiotic fans who have no respect for the greats and a ZIP when it comes to cricketing IQ who know nothing about the game but are only obssesed at showing guys they do not like in poor light.  For them as long as their agendas and the players they like are in the team that satisfies them.  What is fair is not important to them.   Then accuse others of wanting TEAM India to fail when probably in their rotten minds have such thoughts.  It is dsgraceful to call the fans of these greats indignant when the same fans go out of the way to support this new look team.

Here is indignant meaning from Merriam Webster dictionary. I gave you a really long rope and you keep attacking me. Time will not and did not freeze with VVS or Gundappa, things changed a lot in cricket and to win ODIs, artistry and lazy drives is not going to help. Get this into your head and you might get out of your irritable mood. BTW, before attacking people, check the meaning of words and you will know who is being an idiot.

Main Entry: in∑dig∑na∑tion
Pronunciation: "in-dig-'nA-sh&n
Function: noun
: anger aroused by something unjust, unworthy, or mean
synonym see ANGER

This is my last attempt at making you get into sensible debate. Any more personal attacks and you will get a fitting reply from me.
Do not try to put a spin on things Mr.English.  My reply was apt and will continue so.  Till this point I was not personal either, now if you try being indignant and take subtle jabs at DG members then may be want to take it outside.  Any how what is it is with Vishy and VVS when you want to make this personal.  I will let you take the first punch and will respond accordingly.  For the record one of the gent is still active and playing.  So that tells how you are thinking.  That explains who is in a irritable mood.
I used a word and I gave the meaning of that word, where is the spin? Again, if you are not sure of meaning of words, plz check before calling people idiotic.

Last I checked, calling DG member idiot is a personal attack. You owe me an apology.
Again read your post.  When you have the guts to call the fans of other players not in the team "who are waiting and ready to draw blood if we fail" then expect a fitting reply.  That is a bigger deal to me than calling you an Idiot or whatever.  If you are willing to send me an apology for huring me personally being a VVS fan then mine will follow. I hope you reconcile and take it back first. Then see what happens.
no more words with you. this is reported to the Mods. You been attacking a lot of people on this DG. Calling names is not acceptable.

And there are some idiotic fans who have no respect for the greats and a ZIP when it comes to cricketing IQ who know nothing about the game but are only obssesed at showing guys they do not like in poor light.  For them as long as their agendas and the players they like are in the team that satisfies them.  What is fair is not important to them.   Then accuse others of wanting TEAM India to fail when probably in their rotten minds have such thoughts.  It is disgraceful to call the fans of these greats indignant when the same fans go out of the way to support this new look team.

For vociferous fans to indignantly demand for his inclusion is simply out of place.
Look you idiot next time you call someones indignant watchout.  Just like you ask others to read others posts you do the same.   Don't try to be subtle about your statements and think you can get away with it.  Not with me you won't.

flute,
Like what Sahir, rams, and I have pointed out  - running between wkts is an issue for others as well (in a different style maybe, but still not all folks are judging runs very well in current squad eg. RD, Venu-does not seem particularly great in running, VS-slower than before)
Fineleg:Any person who has a decent understanding of the game will get it.  This dismissive attitude and going out of the way to prove a player is bad though not true outlines certain likes and dislikes.  Although I can go and get atleast 25 matches of RD and prove it on this forum what a pathetic ODI player he was.  I chose not to do that because I know every dog has its good and bad day.  Also if VVS has nothing left in his tank, I will come on this DG and say so.


Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: ramshorns on April 30, 2006, 01:13:04 AM
While winning WC-07 would be more than thrilling, that is not the yardstick to measure the success of the ODI team - that is done over quite a few series and how we play in different conditions against diff teams. If we do well in WC (semis is prob min we expect, entering finals will be real good), and if we do well in other series, then IMO, our ODI team can be considered improved. That would be the yardstick to judge, not just one tournament.

Cannot decide based on just one match or one series.
spot on fineleg. applause for you. While this is the ideal way of evaluating the team, I don't think it will turn out this way. There are quite a few indignant fans of former stars like SG & VVS who are waiting and ready to draw blood if we fail to perform well in WC07. There is no benefit of doubt or evaluation after WC, if we don't get WC, "I told ya" statements will be all over the place on this DG.
And there are some idiotic fans who have no respect for the greats and a ZIP when it comes to cricketing IQ who know nothing about the game but are only obssesed at showing guys they do not like in poor light.  For them as long as their agendas and the players they like are in the team that satisfies them.  What is fair is not important to them.   Then accuse others of wanting TEAM India to fail when probably in their rotten minds have such thoughts.  It is dsgraceful to call the fans of these greats indignant when the same fans go out of the way to support this new look team.

Here is indignant meaning from Merriam Webster dictionary. I gave you a really long rope and you keep attacking me. Time will not and did not freeze with VVS or Gundappa, things changed a lot in cricket and to win ODIs, artistry and lazy drives is not going to help. Get this into your head and you might get out of your irritable mood. BTW, before attacking people, check the meaning of words and you will know who is being an idiot.

Main Entry: in∑dig∑na∑tion
Pronunciation: "in-dig-'nA-sh&n
Function: noun
: anger aroused by something unjust, unworthy, or mean
synonym see ANGER

This is my last attempt at making you get into sensible debate. Any more personal attacks and you will get a fitting reply from me.
Do not try to put a spin on things Mr.English.  My reply was apt and will continue so.  Till this point I was not personal either, now if you try being indignant and take subtle jabs at DG members then may be want to take it outside.  Any how what is it is with Vishy and VVS when you want to make this personal.  I will let you take the first punch and will respond accordingly.  For the record one of the gent is still active and playing.  So that tells how you are thinking.  That explains who is in a irritable mood.
I used a word and I gave the meaning of that word, where is the spin? Again, if you are not sure of meaning of words, plz check before calling people idiotic.

Last I checked, calling DG member idiot is a personal attack. You owe me an apology.
Again read your post.  When you have the guts to call the fans of other players not in the team "who are waiting and ready to draw blood if we fail" then expect a fitting reply.  That is a bigger deal to me than calling you an Idiot or whatever.  If you are willing to send me an apology for huring me personally being a VVS fan then mine will follow. I hope you reconcile and take it back first. Then see what happens.
no more words with you. this is reported to the Mods. You been attacking a lot of people on this DG. Calling names is not acceptable.

And there are some idiotic fans who have no respect for the greats and a ZIP when it comes to cricketing IQ who know nothing about the game but are only obssesed at showing guys they do not like in poor light.  For them as long as their agendas and the players they like are in the team that satisfies them.  What is fair is not important to them.   Then accuse others of wanting TEAM India to fail when probably in their rotten minds have such thoughts.  It is disgraceful to call the fans of these greats indignant when the same fans go out of the way to support this new look team.

For vociferous fans to indignantly demand for his inclusion is simply out of place.
Look you idiot next time you call someones indignant watchout.  Just like you ask others to read others posts you do the same.   Don't try to be subtle about your statements and think you can get away with it.  Not with me you won't.

flute,
Like what Sahir, rams, and I have pointed out  - running between wkts is an issue for others as well (in a different style maybe, but still not all folks are judging runs very well in current squad eg. RD, Venu-does not seem particularly great in running, VS-slower than before)
Fineleg:Any person who has a decent understanding of the game will get it.  This dismissive attitude and going out of the way to prove a player is bad though not true outlines certain likes and dislikes.  Although I can go and get atleast 25 matches of RD and prove it on this forum what a pathetic ODI player he was.  I chose not to do that because I know every dog has its good and bad day.  Also if VVS has nothing left in his tank, I will come on this DG and say so.



While attacking and sending nasty PM's are your style, mine is purely responding to one's based on the merit.  Now again you said I have attacked others on the DG.  Let us find it out ;D ;D ;D ;D.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: flute202020 on April 30, 2006, 01:28:57 AM
Here is how you made personal remarks about anyone who din't agree with you about VVS. You simply shouted down everyone who disagreed with you, the list is long toney, stumped, senthil,flute...


coming to PMs, my first PM was to explain to you about the meaning of a word and after that it was fitting reply to your response.

I gave only your remarks to reduce length of this post. Full context can anytime be seen in the relevent thread.


Toney
Quote
Why is it so surprising?????Your other part of the statement  "If he is so confident, why isnt he in the ODI toeam to the WI in the first place?", reminds me of a basketball player named Patrick Ewing salary close to $20 mil a year, in the middle of players strike or lockdown was asked if the NBA players were not making enough money and would consider a lesser deal.  His response in those fake sunglasses and an expensive suit "We make a lot of money but we also spend a lot of money". 
As if being in the team is in VVS's hands.  That statement of yours is so comparable to Pat Ewing,

Quote
Now don't try to get too smart here and get SG into the equation and complicate matters.  I never negatively commented once on SG.  That was best left to the likes of you.   Your statement there was about VVS and I had felt that way and hence my comparision to the NBA player. 

As for your saying if you are off limits on commenting about VVS, I would ask you to read K-I-C's post immediately following mine(scroll up) and he exactly got what VVS meant. 

Quote
Now you are providing a cover up for the Ewing like statement and that does not change the erroneous nature of your take.  You putting a spin on things will not change that.  If a player who performed well is not considered then that can be attributed to the direction the team management wants to go.  Right or Wrong is up for debate.  But VVS should say and feel and do exactly what he is doing now????I commend him for that.

If you cannot differentiate between being practical and saying what I personally feel like I cannot help you.  All I can say is you are confused judging a person who is taking practical approach to things based on certian parameters to being contradictory. 

As long as you have valid takes you will not hear from me, but if I feel otherwise IMO sorry I will be a thorn in the flesh and take you on. 


Stumped
Quote
Any one who will read this thread from top to bottom will exactly know the contents, context and the nature of the takes.  So they will decide for themselves.  I am posting this one with the permission of "HIS HIGHNESS"

OK your highness I will not post on this thread any more.  I will not argue with anyone who say that Laxman should not have any realistic confidence.  I will just carry a message from this thread to VVS asking him to not  train, practice or set goals.  I will ask him not to speak to anyone and say anything about his chances. I will just ask him to quit and be a loser.  I will also ask him to get Stumped next time he shows up at the wicket as a gift to THE LORD Stumped.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: ramshorns on April 30, 2006, 01:42:41 AM
Here is how you made personal remarks about anyone who din't agree with you about VVS. You simply shouted down everyone who disagreed with you, the list is long toney, stumped, senthil,flute...


coming to PMs, my first PM was to explain to you about the meaning of a word and after that it was fitting reply to your response.

I gave only your remarks to reduce length of this post. Full context can anytime be seen in the relevent thread.


Toney
Quote
Why is it so surprising?????Your other part of the statement  "If he is so confident, why isnt he in the ODI toeam to the WI in the first place?", reminds me of a basketball player named Patrick Ewing salary close to $20 mil a year, in the middle of players strike or lockdown was asked if the NBA players were not making enough money and would consider a lesser deal.  His response in those fake sunglasses and an expensive suit "We make a lot of money but we also spend a lot of money". 
As if being in the team is in VVS's hands.  That statement of yours is so comparable to Pat Ewing,

Quote
Now don't try to get too smart here and get SG into the equation and complicate matters.  I never negatively commented once on SG.  That was best left to the likes of you.   Your statement there was about VVS and I had felt that way and hence my comparision to the NBA player. 

As for your saying if you are off limits on commenting about VVS, I would ask you to read K-I-C's post immediately following mine(scroll up) and he exactly got what VVS meant. 

Quote
Now you are providing a cover up for the Ewing like statement and that does not change the erroneous nature of your take.  You putting a spin on things will not change that.  If a player who performed well is not considered then that can be attributed to the direction the team management wants to go.  Right or Wrong is up for debate.  But VVS should say and feel and do exactly what he is doing now????I commend him for that.

If you cannot differentiate between being practical and saying what I personally feel like I cannot help you.  All I can say is you are confused judging a person who is taking practical approach to things based on certian parameters to being contradictory. 

As long as you have valid takes you will not hear from me, but if I feel otherwise IMO sorry I will be a thorn in the flesh and take you on. 


Stumped
Quote
Any one who will read this thread from top to bottom will exactly know the contents, context and the nature of the takes.  So they will decide for themselves.  I am posting this one with the permission of "HIS HIGHNESS"

OK your highness I will not post on this thread any more.  I will not argue with anyone who say that Laxman should not have any realistic confidence.  I will just carry a message from this thread to VVS asking him to not  train, practice or set goals.  I will ask him not to speak to anyone and say anything about his chances. I will just ask him to quit and be a loser.  I will also ask him to get Stumped next time he shows up at the wicket as a gift to THE LORD Stumped.
Again this is just to tarnish.  I will attach the link here.  One has to  read the posts in the order to get it. I think you doing the Mods job is wrong.  You are not one.  So let people read the thread for themselves to decide what is right or wrong.
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=2612.0

 
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: flute202020 on April 30, 2006, 02:01:21 AM
Here is how you made personal remarks about anyone who din't agree with you about VVS. You simply shouted down everyone who disagreed with you, the list is long toney, stumped, senthil,flute...


coming to PMs, my first PM was to explain to you about the meaning of a word and after that it was fitting reply to your response.

I gave only your remarks to reduce length of this post. Full context can anytime be seen in the relevent thread.


Toney
Quote
Why is it so surprising?????Your other part of the statement  "If he is so confident, why isnt he in the ODI toeam to the WI in the first place?", reminds me of a basketball player named Patrick Ewing salary close to $20 mil a year, in the middle of players strike or lockdown was asked if the NBA players were not making enough money and would consider a lesser deal.  His response in those fake sunglasses and an expensive suit "We make a lot of money but we also spend a lot of money". 
As if being in the team is in VVS's hands.  That statement of yours is so comparable to Pat Ewing,

Quote
Now don't try to get too smart here and get SG into the equation and complicate matters.  I never negatively commented once on SG.  That was best left to the likes of you.   Your statement there was about VVS and I had felt that way and hence my comparision to the NBA player. 

As for your saying if you are off limits on commenting about VVS, I would ask you to read K-I-C's post immediately following mine(scroll up) and he exactly got what VVS meant. 

Quote
Now you are providing a cover up for the Ewing like statement and that does not change the erroneous nature of your take.  You putting a spin on things will not change that.  If a player who performed well is not considered then that can be attributed to the direction the team management wants to go.  Right or Wrong is up for debate.  But VVS should say and feel and do exactly what he is doing now????I commend him for that.

If you cannot differentiate between being practical and saying what I personally feel like I cannot help you.  All I can say is you are confused judging a person who is taking practical approach to things based on certian parameters to being contradictory. 

As long as you have valid takes you will not hear from me, but if I feel otherwise IMO sorry I will be a thorn in the flesh and take you on. 


Stumped
Quote
Any one who will read this thread from top to bottom will exactly know the contents, context and the nature of the takes.  So they will decide for themselves.  I am posting this one with the permission of "HIS HIGHNESS"

OK your highness I will not post on this thread any more.  I will not argue with anyone who say that Laxman should not have any realistic confidence.  I will just carry a message from this thread to VVS asking him to not  train, practice or set goals.  I will ask him not to speak to anyone and say anything about his chances. I will just ask him to quit and be a loser.  I will also ask him to get Stumped next time he shows up at the wicket as a gift to THE LORD Stumped.
Again this is just to tarnish.  I will attach the link here.  One has to  read the posts in the order to get it. I think you doing the Mods job is wrong.  You are not one.  So let people read the thread for themselves to decide what is right or wrong.
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=2612.0

 
disjointed logic . You asked for it and I gave your quotes. How is quoting you mod's job?
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: ramshorns on April 30, 2006, 02:08:16 AM
Here is how you made personal remarks about anyone who din't agree with you about VVS. You simply shouted down everyone who disagreed with you, the list is long toney, stumped, senthil,flute...


coming to PMs, my first PM was to explain to you about the meaning of a word and after that it was fitting reply to your response.

I gave only your remarks to reduce length of this post. Full context can anytime be seen in the relevent thread.


Toney
Quote
Why is it so surprising?????Your other part of the statement  "If he is so confident, why isnt he in the ODI toeam to the WI in the first place?", reminds me of a basketball player named Patrick Ewing salary close to $20 mil a year, in the middle of players strike or lockdown was asked if the NBA players were not making enough money and would consider a lesser deal.  His response in those fake sunglasses and an expensive suit "We make a lot of money but we also spend a lot of money". 
As if being in the team is in VVS's hands.  That statement of yours is so comparable to Pat Ewing,

Quote
Now don't try to get too smart here and get SG into the equation and complicate matters.  I never negatively commented once on SG.  That was best left to the likes of you.   Your statement there was about VVS and I had felt that way and hence my comparision to the NBA player. 

As for your saying if you are off limits on commenting about VVS, I would ask you to read K-I-C's post immediately following mine(scroll up) and he exactly got what VVS meant. 

Quote
Now you are providing a cover up for the Ewing like statement and that does not change the erroneous nature of your take.  You putting a spin on things will not change that.  If a player who performed well is not considered then that can be attributed to the direction the team management wants to go.  Right or Wrong is up for debate.  But VVS should say and feel and do exactly what he is doing now????I commend him for that.

If you cannot differentiate between being practical and saying what I personally feel like I cannot help you.  All I can say is you are confused judging a person who is taking practical approach to things based on certian parameters to being contradictory. 

As long as you have valid takes you will not hear from me, but if I feel otherwise IMO sorry I will be a thorn in the flesh and take you on. 


Stumped
Quote
Any one who will read this thread from top to bottom will exactly know the contents, context and the nature of the takes.  So they will decide for themselves.  I am posting this one with the permission of "HIS HIGHNESS"

OK your highness I will not post on this thread any more.  I will not argue with anyone who say that Laxman should not have any realistic confidence.  I will just carry a message from this thread to VVS asking him to not  train, practice or set goals.  I will ask him not to speak to anyone and say anything about his chances. I will just ask him to quit and be a loser.  I will also ask him to get Stumped next time he shows up at the wicket as a gift to THE LORD Stumped.
Again this is just to tarnish.  I will attach the link here.  One has to  read the posts in the order to get it. I think you doing the Mods job is wrong.  You are not one.  So let people read the thread for themselves to decide what is right or wrong.
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=2612.0

 
disjointed logic . You asked for it and I gave your quotes. How is quoting you mod's job?
I am loving this. ;D ;D ;D ;D This is a freaking DG.  People say things as they feel like without being derogatory.  I said what I felt like.  Stop being a baby.  You don't have to quote me.  I have myself given the link for it.    People are smarter than what you think.  You don't have to knit pick as it suits you.  They will figure it out.   Don't waste your time.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: prfsr on April 30, 2006, 02:10:40 AM
While winning WC-07 would be more than thrilling, that is not the yardstick to measure the success of the ODI team - that is done over quite a few series and how we play in different conditions against diff teams. If we do well in WC (semis is prob min we expect, entering finals will be real good), and if we do well in other series, then IMO, our ODI team can be considered improved. That would be the yardstick to judge, not just one tournament.

Cannot decide based on just one match or one series.

Fair enough, but do you agree that everything that has been done by the "new BCCI", most notably More, GC, Pawar was geared towards the WC? That was the reason for all personnel changes (not just SG), and that was the reason the new coach was chosen (as has been reported on this DG). Surely you agree that the new BCCI management has set the criterion for itself?

-P
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: flute202020 on April 30, 2006, 02:38:53 AM
Here is how you made personal remarks about anyone who din't agree with you about VVS. You simply shouted down everyone who disagreed with you, the list is long toney, stumped, senthil,flute...


coming to PMs, my first PM was to explain to you about the meaning of a word and after that it was fitting reply to your response.

I gave only your remarks to reduce length of this post. Full context can anytime be seen in the relevent thread.


Toney
Quote
Why is it so surprising?????Your other part of the statement  "If he is so confident, why isnt he in the ODI toeam to the WI in the first place?", reminds me of a basketball player named Patrick Ewing salary close to $20 mil a year, in the middle of players strike or lockdown was asked if the NBA players were not making enough money and would consider a lesser deal.  His response in those fake sunglasses and an expensive suit "We make a lot of money but we also spend a lot of money". 
As if being in the team is in VVS's hands.  That statement of yours is so comparable to Pat Ewing,

Quote
Now don't try to get too smart here and get SG into the equation and complicate matters.  I never negatively commented once on SG.  That was best left to the likes of you.   Your statement there was about VVS and I had felt that way and hence my comparision to the NBA player. 

As for your saying if you are off limits on commenting about VVS, I would ask you to read K-I-C's post immediately following mine(scroll up) and he exactly got what VVS meant. 

Quote
Now you are providing a cover up for the Ewing like statement and that does not change the erroneous nature of your take.  You putting a spin on things will not change that.  If a player who performed well is not considered then that can be attributed to the direction the team management wants to go.  Right or Wrong is up for debate.  But VVS should say and feel and do exactly what he is doing now????I commend him for that.

If you cannot differentiate between being practical and saying what I personally feel like I cannot help you.  All I can say is you are confused judging a person who is taking practical approach to things based on certian parameters to being contradictory. 

As long as you have valid takes you will not hear from me, but if I feel otherwise IMO sorry I will be a thorn in the flesh and take you on. 


Stumped
Quote
Any one who will read this thread from top to bottom will exactly know the contents, context and the nature of the takes.  So they will decide for themselves.  I am posting this one with the permission of "HIS HIGHNESS"

OK your highness I will not post on this thread any more.  I will not argue with anyone who say that Laxman should not have any realistic confidence.  I will just carry a message from this thread to VVS asking him to not  train, practice or set goals.  I will ask him not to speak to anyone and say anything about his chances. I will just ask him to quit and be a loser.  I will also ask him to get Stumped next time he shows up at the wicket as a gift to THE LORD Stumped.
Again this is just to tarnish.  I will attach the link here.  One has to  read the posts in the order to get it. I think you doing the Mods job is wrong.  You are not one.  So let people read the thread for themselves to decide what is right or wrong.
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=2612.0

 
disjointed logic . You asked for it and I gave your quotes. How is quoting you mod's job?
I am loving this. ;D ;D ;D ;D This is a freaking DG.  People say things as they feel like without being derogatory.  I said what I felt like.  Stop being a baby.  You don't have to quote me.  I have myself given the link for it.    People are smarter than what you think.  You don't have to knit pick as it suits you.  They will figure it out.   Don't waste your time.
I don't know about you, but I for one, use my judgement in saying things , I just don't say what I feel like saying. get the difference.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: ramshorns on April 30, 2006, 02:53:21 AM
Here is how you made personal remarks about anyone who din't agree with you about VVS. You simply shouted down everyone who disagreed with you, the list is long toney, stumped, senthil,flute...


coming to PMs, my first PM was to explain to you about the meaning of a word and after that it was fitting reply to your response.

I gave only your remarks to reduce length of this post. Full context can anytime be seen in the relevent thread.


Toney
Quote
Why is it so surprising?????Your other part of the statement  "If he is so confident, why isnt he in the ODI toeam to the WI in the first place?", reminds me of a basketball player named Patrick Ewing salary close to $20 mil a year, in the middle of players strike or lockdown was asked if the NBA players were not making enough money and would consider a lesser deal.  His response in those fake sunglasses and an expensive suit "We make a lot of money but we also spend a lot of money". 
As if being in the team is in VVS's hands.  That statement of yours is so comparable to Pat Ewing,

Quote
Now don't try to get too smart here and get SG into the equation and complicate matters.  I never negatively commented once on SG.  That was best left to the likes of you.   Your statement there was about VVS and I had felt that way and hence my comparision to the NBA player. 

As for your saying if you are off limits on commenting about VVS, I would ask you to read K-I-C's post immediately following mine(scroll up) and he exactly got what VVS meant. 

Quote
Now you are providing a cover up for the Ewing like statement and that does not change the erroneous nature of your take.  You putting a spin on things will not change that.  If a player who performed well is not considered then that can be attributed to the direction the team management wants to go.  Right or Wrong is up for debate.  But VVS should say and feel and do exactly what he is doing now????I commend him for that.

If you cannot differentiate between being practical and saying what I personally feel like I cannot help you.  All I can say is you are confused judging a person who is taking practical approach to things based on certian parameters to being contradictory. 

As long as you have valid takes you will not hear from me, but if I feel otherwise IMO sorry I will be a thorn in the flesh and take you on. 


Stumped
Quote
Any one who will read this thread from top to bottom will exactly know the contents, context and the nature of the takes.  So they will decide for themselves.  I am posting this one with the permission of "HIS HIGHNESS"

OK your highness I will not post on this thread any more.  I will not argue with anyone who say that Laxman should not have any realistic confidence.  I will just carry a message from this thread to VVS asking him to not  train, practice or set goals.  I will ask him not to speak to anyone and say anything about his chances. I will just ask him to quit and be a loser.  I will also ask him to get Stumped next time he shows up at the wicket as a gift to THE LORD Stumped.
Again this is just to tarnish.  I will attach the link here.  One has to  read the posts in the order to get it. I think you doing the Mods job is wrong.  You are not one.  So let people read the thread for themselves to decide what is right or wrong.
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=2612.0

 
disjointed logic . You asked for it and I gave your quotes. How is quoting you mod's job?
I am loving this. ;D ;D ;D ;D This is a freaking DG.  People say things as they feel like without being derogatory.  I said what I felt like.  Stop being a baby.  You don't have to quote me.  I have myself given the link for it.    People are smarter than what you think.  You don't have to knit pick as it suits you.  They will figure it out.   Don't waste your time.
I don't know about you, but I for one, use my judgement in saying things , I just don't say what I feel like saying. get the difference.
But then call fans of VVS/SG etc are anti-india as your quote speaks from one of your posts "There are quite a few indignant fans of former stars like SG & VVS who are waiting and ready to draw blood if we fail to perform well in WC07.", as if you are antaryami who know what people think.  Sure you use your judgement.  You call players still part of TEAM INDIA as former stars and I will go looking for meanings to know what it is.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: squarecut on April 30, 2006, 03:04:41 AM
VVS didn't play WC03 and Kumble didn't play much in that one so what is this fuss about.

VVS was never a good ODI player but tests are totally diff. So make your own judgments.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: ramshorns on April 30, 2006, 03:21:23 AM
VVS didn't play WC03 and Kumble didn't play much in that one so what is this fuss about.

VVS was never a good ODI player but tests are totally diff. So make your own judgments.
No problems with that.  You are entiltled to your opinions.  But when the personal element of accusing someones motive or suggesting rooting against India because VVS is not in the team comes in sorry I will reply aptly.  No two ways about it.   I spent freakin time and money to watch Indian matches.  I hope some of the others like you see the difference.  Also I will never make fuss of anything.  This is nothing trust me.  With me it goes both ways.  I give some when it is warranted and take it when someone dishes out.  But when you accuse me of things I am not, watch out.  I will let it be known. 
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: atticus on April 30, 2006, 03:22:48 AM
VVS didn't play WC03 and Kumble didn't play much in that one so what is this fuss about.

VVS was never a good ODI player but tests are totally diff. So make your own judgments.

It is much easier to attack GC by including VVS, AK and ZK in the list of players "wronged" than just using the only 1 player who can be realistically be considered to be axed by GC for non-cricketing reasons. You know, something about "strength in numbers".
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: ramshorns on April 30, 2006, 03:25:42 AM
So that folks on this DG know I have exchanged notes with Toney, Stumped, Senthil after the said infamous quotes of mine published earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: squarecut on April 30, 2006, 04:22:54 AM
VVS didn't play WC03 and Kumble didn't play much in that one so what is this fuss about.

VVS was never a good ODI player but tests are totally diff. So make your own judgments.
No problems with that.  You are entiltled to your opinions.  But when the personal element of accusing someones motive or suggesting rooting against India because VVS is not in the team comes in sorry I will reply aptly.  No two ways about it.   I spent freakin time and money to watch Indian matches.  I hope some of the others like you see the difference.  Also I will never make fuss of anything.  This is nothing trust me.  With me it goes both ways.  I give some when it is warranted and take it when someone dishes out.  But when you accuse me of things I am not, watch out.  I will let it be known. 
accusing you. what r u talking?
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: ramshorns on April 30, 2006, 04:26:16 AM
VVS didn't play WC03 and Kumble didn't play much in that one so what is this fuss about.

VVS was never a good ODI player but tests are totally diff. So make your own judgments.
No problems with that.  You are entiltled to your opinions.  But when the personal element of accusing someones motive or suggesting rooting against India because VVS is not in the team comes in sorry I will reply aptly.  No two ways about it.   I spent freakin time and money to watch Indian matches.  I hope some of the others like you see the difference.  Also I will never make fuss of anything.  This is nothing trust me.  With me it goes both ways.  I give some when it is warranted and take it when someone dishes out.  But when you accuse me of things I am not, watch out.  I will let it be known. 
accusing you. what r u talking?
Sorry, SQCUT, if it came out that way.  The entire post excepting the portion of the first line was giving you an idea of what happended on this thread.  So if you read that again you will see my point.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: squarecut on April 30, 2006, 04:33:23 AM
VVS didn't play WC03 and Kumble didn't play much in that one so what is this fuss about.

VVS was never a good ODI player but tests are totally diff. So make your own judgments.
No problems with that.  You are entiltled to your opinions.  But when the personal element of accusing someones motive or suggesting rooting against India because VVS is not in the team comes in sorry I will reply aptly.  No two ways about it.   I spent freakin time and money to watch Indian matches.  I hope some of the others like you see the difference.  Also I will never make fuss of anything.  This is nothing trust me.  With me it goes both ways.  I give some when it is warranted and take it when someone dishes out.  But when you accuse me of things I am not, watch out.  I will let it be known. 
accusing you. what r u talking?
Sorry, SQCUT, if it came out that way.  The entire post excepting the portion of the first line was giving you an idea of what happended on this thread.  So if you read that again you will see my point.

Thats ok. I don't want to attack anybody  personally. My point was VVS was not considered for WC03 which I think was a bad call but for WC07 I don't think he himself believes that he stand a chance.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: ramshorns on April 30, 2006, 04:41:03 AM
VVS didn't play WC03 and Kumble didn't play much in that one so what is this fuss about.

VVS was never a good ODI player but tests are totally diff. So make your own judgments.
No problems with that.  You are entiltled to your opinions.  But when the personal element of accusing someones motive or suggesting rooting against India because VVS is not in the team comes in sorry I will reply aptly.  No two ways about it.   I spent freakin time and money to watch Indian matches.  I hope some of the others like you see the difference.  Also I will never make fuss of anything.  This is nothing trust me.  With me it goes both ways.  I give some when it is warranted and take it when someone dishes out.  But when you accuse me of things I am not, watch out.  I will let it be known. 
accusing you. what r u talking?
Sorry, SQCUT, if it came out that way.  The entire post excepting the portion of the first line was giving you an idea of what happended on this thread.  So if you read that again you will see my point.

Thats ok. I don't want to attack anybody  personally. My point was VVS was not considered for WC03 which I think was a bad call but for WC07 I don't think he himself believes that he stand a chance.
Don't worry about it.  I know your stand on things and how you convey your opinions.  But if you see VVS's interview off late, he still beleives in it.  Actually it is me who do not believe in it.  Being practical.  Any way there are plenty of links to that thread if you scroll up and get there.  The case has been beaten down to death.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on April 30, 2006, 06:51:53 AM
While winning WC-07 would be more than thrilling, that is not the yardstick to measure the success of the ODI team - that is done over quite a few series and how we play in different conditions against diff teams. If we do well in WC (semis is prob min we expect, entering finals will be real good), and if we do well in other series, then IMO, our ODI team can be considered improved. That would be the yardstick to judge, not just one tournament.

Cannot decide based on just one match or one series.

Fair enough, but do you agree that everything that has been done by the "new BCCI", most notably More, GC, Pawar was geared towards the WC? That was the reason for all personnel changes (not just SG), and that was the reason the new coach was chosen (as has been reported on this DG). Surely you agree that the new BCCI management has set the criterion for itself?

-P


Prfsr,
I dont agree everything was done for WC only - it was done for ODI in general - yes BCCI "public statements" laid WC emphasis, and surely focus is there, no doubt. But I have heard RD say time and again, the WC is only one tournament and there are many others. Overall improvement is what is needed.

Now, BCCI may mess up as usual, and attribute lack of a WC-win as a reason to chuck out GC - but that will be a knee-jerk reaction from them. I dont agree with that.

Long interview, but good one:
(courtesy sahir)
recent Rahul Dravid interview on "Aaj Tak"
(only complaint is that same highly irritating interviewer):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3120427701014612307&q=Dravid&pl=true
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: jaat69 on April 30, 2006, 01:00:47 PM

Here is indignant meaning from Merriam Webster dictionary. I gave you a really long rope and you keep attacking me. Time will not and did not freeze with VVS or Gundappa, things changed a lot in cricket and to win ODIs, artistry and lazy drives is not going to help. Get this into your head and you might get out of your irritable mood. BTW, before attacking people, check the meaning of words and you will know who is being an idiot.

Main Entry: in∑dig∑na∑tion
Pronunciation: "in-dig-'nA-sh&n
Function: noun
: anger aroused by something unjust, unworthy, or mean
synonym see ANGER

This is my last attempt at making you get into sensible debate. Any more personal attacks and you will get a fitting reply from me.

I wish things were as good, as you say!
Winning the WC too may happen, but I still can't help feeling that this is only an Indian -B team, playing other B-teams, with the exception of England.
That was there C-team!
I just cannot accept Uthappa, Rao, Dhawan, etc in place of SG/SRT and VVS too. They don't belong to the same class despite their recent good performances. Besides, RD was never a good ODI player and is still just abt acceptable.
The above is just my personal sentiments.
When you learn to respect other people's feelings, others will start respecting yours.
Its a 2-way deal!
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: dhruvdeepak on April 30, 2006, 03:04:40 PM

Here is indignant meaning from Merriam Webster dictionary. I gave you a really long rope and you keep attacking me. Time will not and did not freeze with VVS or Gundappa, things changed a lot in cricket and to win ODIs, artistry and lazy drives is not going to help. Get this into your head and you might get out of your irritable mood. BTW, before attacking people, check the meaning of words and you will know who is being an idiot.

Main Entry: in∑dig∑na∑tion
Pronunciation: "in-dig-'nA-sh&n
Function: noun
: anger aroused by something unjust, unworthy, or mean
synonym see ANGER

This is my last attempt at making you get into sensible debate. Any more personal attacks and you will get a fitting reply from me.

I wish things were as good, as you say!
Winning the WC too may happen, but I still can't help feeling that this is only an Indian -B team, playing other B-teams, with the exception of England.
That was there C-team!
I just cannot accept Uthappa, Rao, Dhawan, etc in place of SG/SRT and VVS too. They don't belong to the same class despite their recent good performances. Besides, RD was never a good ODI player and is still just abt acceptable.
The above is just my personal sentiments.
When you learn to respect other people's feelings, others will start respecting yours.
Its a 2-way deal!


so results dont matter it is all about your peace of mind that your favorite senior players get to play.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: bala on April 30, 2006, 03:21:47 PM
Can you repeat the queschun?  ;D
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: flute202020 on April 30, 2006, 03:25:35 PM
Can you repeat the queschun?  ;D
;D good one. In all the noise(yours Truly included), I guess we lost track of the issue under discussion..lets get back on track, what's your take?
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: bala on April 30, 2006, 03:30:33 PM
Need one or two proven performers as backup.
Need to give chances to proven performers in a few games before WC to keep them match-fit.
Need to consider overall team ethos to make sure everyone fits in (don't need someone a la N. Mongia (if allegations against him are true))

Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: flute202020 on April 30, 2006, 03:40:24 PM
Need one or two proven performers as backup.
Need to give chances to proven performers in a few games before WC to keep them match-fit.
Need to consider overall team ethos to make sure everyone fits in (don't need someone a la N. Mongia (if allegations against him are true))


bala,
1. Proven Performers backup: The problem is, our former stars are all aging and their past performances may not mean much now. I guess I favour a case by case analysis. Like I said before, SG should be tried out and given a few chances in ODIs as a back up to Kaif, since he had a wonderful ODI record. VVS since he was never a huge hit in ODIs, with his limitations in terms of batting position, fielding, running between wickets etc., he better left to tests. AK, again is the same thing, he did not impress much in SL and is also a liability in the field. All our recent ODI success came by taking young, energetic and fit players. SG also has fielding isues but he is the type of player who can win us a match on his day.

2.Overall theam ethos: Please elaborate, not sure what exactly you wanted to change.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: CLR James on April 30, 2006, 03:40:55 PM
Results do matter. We have done very very well in ODIs recently, and have performed below par in tests. But as Jaat pointed out, so far we have played second string teams in the subcontinent (except for the Pakistan series, which was an exhilerating win). Insofar as the goal to win the World Cup is concerned, quite a few questions remain.

1. Too many batsmen (VS, SRT, VVS, MK, GG,) are woefully and consistently out of form. SG of course has been kicked out without a fair chance for clearly personal reasons. Even RD's technique, with his numerous bowled through the gate or LBW dismissals in recent times, looks brittle (question: is he today capable of producing those monumental double hundreds?). The batting is our greatest reservoir of strength. If that looks worrisome, if there are just too many top order collapses, then we do have to be worried.

2. We have won too many matches with one-two-three trick ponies in the form of YS, IP, Dhoni. While these youngsters have spectacularly come of age, we need to maximize output potential from other slots too.

3. Suresh Raina has emerged as a strong contender for greatness, but it is still premature to say that he will be a worthy successor to the likes of SG or VVS. What is more worrying is that contenders like MK and Venu have failed to emerge as clear and redoubtable options to replace ODI greats like SG. It is here that the question of politics comes in. Why is it that SG or VVS cannot be rotated with these single digit scoring people on a fair basis?

4. The bowling looks spectacular to me. The rise of Santh, Munaf, RP and Powar bodes well. They have already bailed us out on numerous recent ocassions when the batsmen have failed to deliver. I just hope this young attack acquires the steel and discipline to deliver under pressure. In 2003 our pace attack destroyed a lot of teams before losing nerve in the finals completely.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: jaat69 on April 30, 2006, 03:42:10 PM
Need one or two proven performers as backup.
Need to give chances to proven performers in a few games before WC to keep them match-fit.
Need to consider overall team ethos to make sure everyone fits in (don't need someone a la N. Mongia (if allegations against him are true))



That sounds reasonable alright! Only if GC thinks likewise! :)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: jaat69 on April 30, 2006, 03:49:50 PM
Results do matter. We have done very very well in ODIs recently, and have performed below par in tests. But as Jaat pointed out, so far we have played second string teams in the subcontinent (except for the Pakistan series, which was an exhilerating win). Insofar as the goal to win the World Cup is concerned, quite a few questions remain.

1. Too many batsmen (VS, SRT, VVS, MK, GG,) are woefully and consistently out of form. SG of course has been kicked out without a fair chance for clearly personal reasons. Even RD's technique, with his numerous bowled through the gate or LBW dismissals in recent times, looks brittle (question: is he today capable of producing those monumental double hundreds?). The batting is our greatest reservoir of strength. If that looks worrisome, if there are just too many top order collapses, then we do have to be worried.

2. We have won too many matches with one-two-three trick ponies in the form of YS, IP, Dhoni. While these youngsters have spectacularly come of age, we need to maximize output potential from other slots too.

3. Suresh Raina has emerged as a strong contender for greatness, but it is still premature to say that he will be a worthy successor to the likes of SG or VVS. What is more worrying is that contenders like MK and Venu have failed to emerge as clear and redoubtable options to replace ODI greats like SG. It is here that the question of politics comes in. Why is it that SG or VVS cannot be rotated with these single digit scoring people on a fair basis?

4. The bowling looks spectacular to me. The rise of Santh, Munaf, RP and Powar bodes well. They have already bailed us out on numerous recent ocassions when the batsmen have failed to deliver. I just hope this young attack acquires the steel and discipline to deliver under pressure. In 2003 our pace attack destroyed a lot of teams before losing nerve in the finals completely.

Very fair assessment CLR!.....Applause!
Despite all these recent victories, I am not too happy about the look of Indian batting. It looks second string compared to the earlier one.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: ramshorns on April 30, 2006, 03:56:06 PM
Results do matter. We have done very very well in ODIs recently, and have performed below par in tests. But as Jaat pointed out, so far we have played second string teams in the subcontinent (except for the Pakistan series, which was an exhilerating win). Insofar as the goal to win the World Cup is concerned, quite a few questions remain.

1. Too many batsmen (VS, SRT, VVS, MK, GG,) are woefully and consistently out of form. SG of course has been kicked out without a fair chance for clearly personal reasons. Even RD's technique, with his numerous bowled through the gate or LBW dismissals in recent times, looks brittle (question: is he today capable of producing those monumental double hundreds?). The batting is our greatest reservoir of strength. If that looks worrisome, if there are just too many top order collapses, then we do have to be worried.

2. We have won too many matches with one-two-three trick ponies in the form of YS, IP, Dhoni. While these youngsters have spectacularly come of age, we need to maximize output potential from other slots too.

3. Suresh Raina has emerged as a strong contender for greatness, but it is still premature to say that he will be a worthy successor to the likes of SG or VVS. What is more worrying is that contenders like MK and Venu have failed to emerge as clear and redoubtable options to replace ODI greats like SG. It is here that the question of politics comes in. Why is it that SG or VVS cannot be rotated with these single digit scoring people on a fair basis?

4. The bowling looks spectacular to me. The rise of Santh, Munaf, RP and Powar bodes well. They have already bailed us out on numerous recent ocassions when the batsmen have failed to deliver. I just hope this young attack acquires the steel and discipline to deliver under pressure. In 2003 our pace attack destroyed a lot of teams before losing nerve in the finals completely.
Also do not forget Kaif is woefully out of form, not just out of form.  So was Sehwag out of form till that last match against Eng.  He was so embarassed that he dropped himself for couple of games.  This is where in SRT's absense they should have tried VVS/SG in the 2 places and just see if they have it in them.  If this competition has egged them on or not.  I have no idea what is going on?????It has been overlooked because of the wins in the sub-continent.  That is not fair.  Sure invest in RU or a Venu where you can, but with WC around the corner players like VVS and SG atleast should be tried on a rotational basis.  That could be done while trying out these youngsters.  It has not been done.  Very disappointing.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Blwe_torch on April 30, 2006, 04:07:12 PM
Results do matter. We have done very very well in ODIs recently, and have performed below par in tests. But as Jaat pointed out, so far we have played second string teams in the subcontinent (except for the Pakistan series, which was an exhilerating win). Insofar as the goal to win the World Cup is concerned, quite a few questions remain.

1. Too many batsmen (VS, SRT, VVS, MK, GG,) are woefully and consistently out of form. SG of course has been kicked out without a fair chance for clearly personal reasons. Even RD's technique, with his numerous bowled through the gate or LBW dismissals in recent times, looks brittle (question: is he today capable of producing those monumental double hundreds?). The batting is our greatest reservoir of strength. If that looks worrisome, if there are just too many top order collapses, then we do have to be worried.

2. We have won too many matches with one-two-three trick ponies in the form of YS, IP, Dhoni. While these youngsters have spectacularly come of age, we need to maximize output potential from other slots too.

3. Suresh Raina has emerged as a strong contender for greatness, but it is still premature to say that he will be a worthy successor to the likes of SG or VVS. What is more worrying is that contenders like MK and Venu have failed to emerge as clear and redoubtable options to replace ODI greats like SG. It is here that the question of politics comes in. Why is it that SG or VVS cannot be rotated with these single digit scoring people on a fair basis?

4. The bowling looks spectacular to me. The rise of Santh, Munaf, RP and Powar bodes well. They have already bailed us out on numerous recent ocassions when the batsmen have failed to deliver. I just hope this young attack acquires the steel and discipline to deliver under pressure. In 2003 our pace attack destroyed a lot of teams before losing nerve in the finals completely.
Also do not forget Kaif is woefully out of form, not just out of form.  So was Sehwag out of form till that last match against Eng.  He was so embarassed that he dropped himself for couple of games.  This is where in SRT's absense they should have tried VVS/SG in the 2 places and just see if they have it in them.  If this competition has egged them on or not.  I have no idea what is going on?????It has been overlooked because of the wins in the sub-continent.  That is not fair.  Sure invest in RU or a Venu where you can, but with WC around the corner players like VVS and SG atleast should be tried on a rotational basis.  That could be done while trying out these youngsters.  It has not been done.  Very disappointing.

I agree with you Rams!
Persisting with ordinary players is a recipe for fool-hardiness.
GC must remember that Team India is not up for his Grand gamble!
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on April 30, 2006, 04:14:18 PM
Thanks for getting back to the topic :)
So, atleast majority of us would agree the ODI matches in WI and SA will be very crucial as far as our WC  is concerned. All our recent wins came in subcontinent, I agree. But the manner in which they did that is amazing. I haven't see that kind of performance from an Indian time in a long long time, or let me say, never. Previously we used to have the opposition under our feet but somehow we used to give them a chance to sneak back. Thats the positive thing that can be taken from our recent performances. But the games in WI and SA will decide what our WC team will be, roughly. In my opinion, if VS and MK can regain their touch, then the chance for the other players who are left, to come back becomes almost nil. But having said that, players like VVS and AK should use the Tests in WI and SA to get in touch with the team and build their own confidence, so that if a fall back is necessary, they would be the ones getting into the squad. All in all, a proper communication channel has to be established between them and the team management.
PS: In all probability, we might win the series in WI, but I think we should take into consideration the way they win.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: ramshorns on April 30, 2006, 04:20:29 PM

I agree with you Rams!
Persisting with ordinary players is a recipe for fool-hardiness.
GC must remember that Team India is not up for his Grand gamble!
Blwe:Also I have no problems with GC/RD's mantra of looking for the future.  I am all for it.  What is little perplexing is not giving these proven performers a chance.  As an example when RD was rested they called in VRV as a replacement.  I mean that did not make any sense whatsoever.  I mean for a big event like a WC a SG or a VVS who has done very well against great teams can be handy.  Sure you can be dismissive as well.  You can do that about RD, if you choose so.  But IMO youth can be tried at the same time and play VVS or a SG as well given the number of games we have.  Then among KAIF/VENU/VVS/SG/RU etc, pick the best based on these games to the WC.  That is not all that bad an idea.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: indcricfan on April 30, 2006, 07:27:48 PM
I do think from India as a team has all potential to win world cup

why?
What GC/RD has done is changed whole approach the team is built now we have many average contributors and may be 1 or 2 exceptional(SRT and may be RD/VS). This is very much similar to australian team moto right. In one day if all the members can contribute around 30 we are set to win most games.
If u have noticed that is why we have not lost many games recently. No games lost chasing as each know if I get to my needed average the rest will contribute and win. They are yet to streamline the formula of batting first.

Earleir we would have 2 or 3 big scores in the games we win, now we see more even spread.

I would immemnsely enjoy earleir wins as 2 or 3 would score big(SG,SRT combo)

enjoyment level has gone down so I sometimes look for old high flair team

But if u look at it from team india point of view win is the most important aspect and I guess current team is making it count.

I know we have beaten many B teams. But tell me when have we so consistently beaten B teams  ;D

If I had bet money on a team I guess I will bet on current team, But if I had to pay money to watch and enjoy I would love to watch even now the old team  :D

Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: justforkix on April 30, 2006, 08:28:30 PM
What GC/RD has done is changed whole approach the team is built now we have many average contributors and may be 1 or 2 exceptional(SRT and may be RD/VS). This is very much similar to australian team moto right.

Errr..... Aussies have gilly, hayden, punter, martyn, clarke, hussey, symonds. Average contributors ?!?!?
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on April 30, 2006, 08:45:50 PM
What GC/RD has done is changed whole approach the team is built now we have many average contributors and may be 1 or 2 exceptional(SRT and may be RD/VS). This is very much similar to australian team moto right.

Errr..... Aussies have gilly, hayden, punter, martyn, clarke, hussey, symonds. Average contributors ?!?!?

For the first time I am glad to read kix *not* say "we can surely win it!" LOL :)

True - this WC-07 is going to be fiercely fought - most teams esp Aus are gonna be extremely competitive. Aussies we dont even have to guess.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: worma on April 30, 2006, 08:52:54 PM
What GC/RD has done is changed whole approach the team is built now we have many average contributors and may be 1 or 2 exceptional(SRT and may be RD/VS). This is very much similar to australian team moto right.

Errr..... Aussies have gilly, hayden, punter, martyn, clarke, hussey, symonds. Average contributors ?!?!?
This is comparable to Indian lineup...IMO. We are discussing ODIs...right?
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: justforkix on April 30, 2006, 09:00:02 PM
Errr..... Aussies have gilly, hayden, punter, martyn, clarke, hussey, symonds. Average contributors ?!?!?
This is comparable to Indian lineup...IMO. We are discussing ODIs...right?

Yeah. but the Q is Aus batting vs. Indian bowling and Indian batting vs. Astralia bowling. Plz read my earlier post on this thread (reply #22).
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: justforkix on April 30, 2006, 09:01:46 PM
True - this WC-07 is going to be fiercely fought - most teams esp Aus are gonna be extremely competitive. Aussies we dont even have to guess.

don't think so. WI, SL and Eng will be non factors. It will be a 4-way horse race between India, Pak, SA and NZ for the 2nd spot  :)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: CLR James on April 30, 2006, 09:05:39 PM
What GC/RD has done is changed whole approach the team is built now we have many average contributors and may be 1 or 2 exceptional(SRT and may be RD/VS). This is very much similar to australian team moto right.

Errr..... Aussies have gilly, hayden, punter, martyn, clarke, hussey, symonds. Average contributors ?!?!?

Actually all are below average bowlers. Especially Gilli. He positively sucks. Once he tried to effect a stumping off his own bowling.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: worma on April 30, 2006, 09:06:24 PM
Errr..... Aussies have gilly, hayden, punter, martyn, clarke, hussey, symonds. Average contributors ?!?!?
This is comparable to Indian lineup...IMO. We are discussing ODIs...right?

Yeah. but the Q is Aus batting vs. Indian bowling and Indian batting vs. Astralia bowling. Plz read my earlier post on this thread (reply #22).
kix: the indcricfan post still looks like about Indian batting vs Aussie batting to me. And your reply was to that....that Aussies dont just have average contributors.

Atleast thats how I saw it...admittedly came late into the discussion...and maybe missing the bigger pic here being discussed.....lemme get back to that hibernation mode then ;-)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on April 30, 2006, 09:11:42 PM
True - this WC-07 is going to be fiercely fought - most teams esp Aus are gonna be extremely competitive. Aussies we dont even have to guess.

don't think so. WI, SL and Eng will be non factors. It will be a 4-way horse race between India, Pak, SA and NZ for the 2nd spot  :)

Dont write off Eng - they may have been humbled in Ind but will come back and may find themselves in semis.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: justforkix on April 30, 2006, 09:37:31 PM
kix: the indcricfan post still looks like about Indian batting vs Aussie batting to me. And your reply was to that....that Aussies dont just have average contributors.

Atleast thats how I saw it...

That is true. But I still believe that even if compare Aus and Ind batter by batter, Aus have much more match winners with vast experience who have proved it on the big stage and who can adapt to any situation than India.

Symonds, Hussey, Punter, Clarke, Hayden can slog or accumulate. Gilly can slog. Martyn can accumulate. I agree we are moving in that direction. But don't have near that amound of experience that Aus have.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: justforkix on April 30, 2006, 09:38:52 PM
Dont write off Eng - they may have been humbled in Ind but will come back and may find themselves in semis.

LOL  ;D ;D ;D ;D. This joke has made my day today  :D :D :D. They are in the pool with NZ, Canada and Kenya. I think Kenya/Canada will fancy their chances against Eng  ;D
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on April 30, 2006, 09:53:04 PM
Dont write off Eng - they may have been humbled in Ind but will come back and may find themselves in semis.

LOL  ;D ;D ;D ;D. This joke has made my day today  :D :D :D. They are in the pool with NZ, Canada and Kenya. I think Kenya/Canada will fancy their chances against Eng  ;D

It does seem like overconfidence bordering on arrogance! There is 10-11 months left to go for WC. They (ENG) have good bowlers and it is not like we won convincingly all the matches - 2 or 3 matches could have gone either way...I am not sure why you are totally writing them off. KP and AF need no intro - Tresco quite good, Harmison will be back. Anyways...

Infact, I dont think we can write off teams like that - with Lara on resurgence as captain, WI at home can put up good fight.

Probability of WI/Eng/SL winning WC is less - prob of Aus/SA winning is high - Ind/Pak/NZ somewhere in the middle.
But dismissing them as a laughing stock is either too overconfident or arrogant.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on April 30, 2006, 10:08:08 PM
justforkix,
Symonds, Hussey, Punter, Clarke, Hayden can slog or accumulate. Gilly can slog. Martyn can accumulate. I agree we are moving in that direction. But don't have near that amound of experience that Aus have.
I agree Symonds, Hussey, Ponting,Clarke,Hayden,Gilchrist and Martyn are good batsman. As you said, they can slog/accumulate. Thats fine. Why dont we think of our batsmen the same way. Even if we put head to head. Gilchrist and Dhoni can slog/accumulate. As of now, they are even. Dhoni edges past Gilchrist, if Aus has to play Eng. Coming to Symonds, how about Irfan Pathan. Equals there. Aus 1 Ind 2 there. How about Hussey? I will put Yuvraj there.....Equals? Yes. 2-3. Clarke?? Raina?? Both are very good young players, but lets give this to Clarke even though Raina did no bad. 3-3. How about Ponting? We have The Man. Equals. 4-4. Hayden.....Sehwag....On current form Hayden edges past. 4-3. Martyn. How about Dravid...its 4-4 there. So, its not that easy to put our lineup aside, not so simple.
This is fun. Last time we did soemthing like this is for 1987 WCup:)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: poondu on April 30, 2006, 10:55:00 PM
justforkix,
Symonds, Hussey, Punter, Clarke, Hayden can slog or accumulate. Gilly can slog. Martyn can accumulate. I agree we are moving in that direction. But don't have near that amound of experience that Aus have.
I agree Symonds, Hussey, Ponting,Clarke,Hayden,Gilchrist and Martyn are good batsman. As you said, they can slog/accumulate. Thats fine. Why dont we think of our batsmen the same way. Even if we put head to head. Gilchrist and Dhoni can slog/accumulate. As of now, they are even. Dhoni edges past Gilchrist, if Aus has to play Eng. Coming to Symonds, how about Irfan Pathan. Equals there. Aus 1 Ind 2 there. How about Hussey? I will put Yuvraj there.....Equals? Yes. 2-3. Clarke?? Raina?? Both are very good young players, but lets give this to Clarke even though Raina did no bad. 3-3. How about Ponting? We have The Man. Equals. 4-4. Hayden.....Sehwag....On current form Hayden edges past. 4-3. Martyn. How about Dravid...its 4-4 there. So, its not that easy to put our lineup aside, not so simple.
This is fun. Last time we did soemthing like this is for 1987 WCup:)

Irfan Pathan and Symonds are equal in batting ? Even tho I like Irfan's batting Symonds wins by a mile.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on April 30, 2006, 10:56:33 PM
poondu,
I treated them as allrounders.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: kingcool1432 on April 30, 2006, 11:06:58 PM
justforkix,
Symonds, Hussey, Punter, Clarke, Hayden can slog or accumulate. Gilly can slog. Martyn can accumulate. I agree we are moving in that direction. But don't have near that amound of experience that Aus have.
I agree Symonds, Hussey, Ponting,Clarke,Hayden,Gilchrist and Martyn are good batsman. As you said, they can slog/accumulate. Thats fine. Why dont we think of our batsmen the same way. Even if we put head to head. Gilchrist and Dhoni can slog/accumulate. As of now, they are even. Dhoni edges past Gilchrist, if Aus has to play Eng. Coming to Symonds, how about Irfan Pathan. Equals there. Aus 1 Ind 2 there. How about Hussey? I will put Yuvraj there.....Equals? Yes. 2-3. Clarke?? Raina?? Both are very good young players, but lets give this to Clarke even though Raina did no bad. 3-3. How about Ponting? We have The Man. Equals. 4-4. Hayden.....Sehwag....On current form Hayden edges past. 4-3. Martyn. How about Dravid...its 4-4 there. So, its not that easy to put our lineup aside, not so simple.
This is fun. Last time we did soemthing like this is for 1987 WCup:)


I think JFKs point is Ponting vs RPSingh,Powar,Pathan != Sachin vs lee, warne, McGrath
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: justforkix on April 30, 2006, 11:29:16 PM
justforkix,
Symonds, Hussey, Punter, Clarke, Hayden can slog or accumulate. Gilly can slog. Martyn can accumulate. I agree we are moving in that direction. But don't have near that amound of experience that Aus have.
I agree Symonds, Hussey, Ponting,Clarke,Hayden,Gilchrist and Martyn are good batsman. As you said, they can slog/accumulate. Thats fine. Why dont we think of our batsmen the same way. Even if we put head to head. Gilchrist and Dhoni can slog/accumulate. As of now, they are even. Dhoni edges past Gilchrist, if Aus has to play Eng. Coming to Symonds, how about Irfan Pathan. Equals there. Aus 1 Ind 2 there. How about Hussey? I will put Yuvraj there.....Equals? Yes. 2-3. Clarke?? Raina?? Both are very good young players, but lets give this to Clarke even though Raina did no bad. 3-3. How about Ponting? We have The Man. Equals. 4-4. Hayden.....Sehwag....On current form Hayden edges past. 4-3. Martyn. How about Dravid...its 4-4 there. So, its not that easy to put our lineup aside, not so simple.
This is fun. Last time we did soemthing like this is for 1987 WCup:)

I think JFKs point is Ponting vs RPSingh,Powar,Pathan != Sachin vs lee, warne, McGrath

thanks kingcool. exactly my pt.

22 yards : what you say is reasonably true against common opponents. Although I disagree with your analysis w.r.t. following : I give the edge to Gilly. he has the advantage of having played in all conditions and has big match experience. same goes with Clarke vs. Raina. Clarke just more experience. but we are reasonably in the same page.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: justforkix on April 30, 2006, 11:38:21 PM
fineleg :

I write off WI because they are too inconsistent, write off Eng because they (players and coaches) are simply not interested in ODIs, write off SL because they are lions at home, mice abroad. It is not overconfidence or arrogance, just observations. Sure, anything can happen any day and that is why WC is played. But the fact is WI/SL/Eng are pretenders. SA/NZ/Ind/Pak are contenders. ALl for 2nd spot, mind you  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: pieterSAN on April 30, 2006, 11:46:17 PM
Gilchrist        v      Sehwag                      Gilchrist
Katich          v      Tendulkar                    Tendulkar
Ponting        v       Ganguly                      Ponting
Martyn         v       Dravid                        tie
Symonds      v       Yuvraj                        tie
Clarke          v       Raina                         Clarke
Hussey        v        Dhoni                         Hussey
Lee             v        Pathan                       Pathan

This is in all likelihood the best batting line-ups that India and Aus can field. Honestly, on paper there is little contest between the batting line-ups. Has anyone realized that Hussey has crossed 1000 runs at an average of more than 75 in both forms the game? Strike rate of 97 in ODIs.

Think I am wrong? You think the analysis is subjective and too close too call? Okay. For the moment let us assume that. Does this mean our chances in the WC are good? No. Check out our best fielders...Yuvraj, I am pained to say is not as good as Symonds and Clarke is better than Raina. And then they have Ponting, Hussey and Lee. On paper, this is no contest. This is not to say that we can rule out our chances. We are among the main contenders but Australia still remains overwhelming favorites.

England has a chance too because they will be playing in much more pleasant conditions in West Indies - the temp will be about 8-10 degrees lower and they will be a lot happier. I also saw that they can easily field a team that bats deep in the WC. And make no bones about it, Pietersen is the most dangerous batsman in the world right now, perhaps, bar Ponting. There is more than a hint of Richards in his approach with that streak of violent beauty.


Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on May 01, 2006, 12:00:23 AM
:) Well, one thing hasn't changed in my 30 years of watching cricket. The attitude of Indian Fans. I hope our team doesnt think anywhere near on those lines. As you said, anything can happen in ODIs. Forgive, but I fail to understand why not vice versa??
Symonds better than Yuvraj May I ask you how can we conclude that?
Clarke better than Raina Same again?
Indian teams over the years failed fans like me, I agree. But hope is the best thing in this world.
All it takes is a running back catch towards mid wicket....no?
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: pieterSAN on May 01, 2006, 12:18:04 AM
:) Well, one thing hasn't changed in my 30 years of watching cricket. The attitude of Indian Fans. I hope our team doesnt think anywhere near on those lines. As you said, anything can happen in ODIs. Forgive, but I fail to understand why not vice versa??
Symonds better than Yuvraj May I ask you how can we conclude that?
Clarke better than Raina Same again?
Indian teams over the years failed fans like me, I agree. But hope is the best thing in this world.
All it takes is a running back catch towards mid wicket....no?

Just being objective here. Like I said, we are contenders but clearly second to the Aussies. As far as fielding goes I give Symonds and Clarke the edge over Yuvi and Raina based on what I have seen. They seem to be quicker to the balls and also to release it and yet they seem to hit the stumps at least as often if not more.

I don't give up hope but we need to acknowledge that the Aussies are clear favorites still.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on May 01, 2006, 12:26:56 AM
Jiet,
I agree to a certain extent with you. In fact Clarke is one of two batsmen I picked to fill in Sachin and Lara. So I have very high regard in that aspect. But Raina's fielding is a joy to watch. I don't know if you ever got a chance to watch Sivaramakrishnan on the field. I saw him and saw Jonty and now seeing Raina. Please mark my words.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: pieterSAN on May 01, 2006, 12:46:44 AM
22Y, The difference in fielding is telling when we look past Yuvi and Raina. We have about half dozen good fielders but the rest of them just don't measure up to Aussie standards. I like Raina's fielding too and I hope that he works hard on his batting so that he can evolve into the World Class batsman. Perhaps it is a little early to tell whether he is as good as Clarke? We'll see.

I am being realistic rather than pessimistic about India's chances. We can never overestimate the Aussies. It is best to realize that we have to very well prepared if we want to be serious about beating them in the WC. Fineleg would tell you - I am not pessimistic by nature. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: justforkix on May 01, 2006, 01:22:37 AM
:) Well, one thing hasn't changed in my 30 years of watching cricket. The attitude of Indian Fans. I hope our team doesnt think anywhere near on those lines. As you said, anything can happen in ODIs.
Indian teams over the years failed fans like me, I agree.

Nobody is losing hope here. But the fact is India has to play nearly a flawless game and fire almost in all cylinders to beat Australia. But Australia need not to beat India. That is the difference we are trying to point out here.

All along, you have compared only the batters. What about the bowlers - AA/RPS/MP, SS, RP, HS vs. McGrath, Dizzy, Lee, Warnie/Hogg  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: ramshorns on May 01, 2006, 01:47:10 AM

All along, you have compared only the batters. What about the bowlers - AA/RPS/MP, SS, RP, HS vs. McGrath, Dizzy, Lee, Warnie/Hogg  ;D ;D
Because there is no comparision.  Keeping HS aside and AA it is not a knock on the young brigade, but it is a injustice comparing.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on May 01, 2006, 01:49:58 AM
justforkix,
I am optimistic in our bowling too :):)
Warne...less said the better
McGrath.....God only knows if he is gonna play the WCup.
Lee and Gillespie...Well we handled them before....why not again....
May be we have seen only HALF the potential of Sreesanth and Munaf, hopefully :)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on May 01, 2006, 01:53:36 AM
Sorry for being too optimistic ;)
But I just want to see a medal around Sachin's neck (if they ever give one)
I have a funny idea which we can do on this forum, let me know if you are interested (Having said that, last time I did something like that, India had a tremendous heartback experience at '87 Cup)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: justforkix on May 01, 2006, 02:40:11 AM
22 yeards :

This is what I feel (a bit of cut-paste from my earlier post - reply #22) :

How will our bowlers IP, AA, SS, MP, RPS, HS, RP respond to some brutal onslaughts by Hayden, Gilly, Punter, Hussey, Symo.

Our bowlers will simply succumb. Because even very good and experienced bowlers have not handled these psychos' mad hitting !!!! I'm not saying that our bowlers are bad, but they just lack the experience as to what to do, when these mad psychos start tonking the ball. It is scary to even think of what Punter, Hussey, Symo and Gilly can do to our bowlers :(. Hopefully they can prove me wrong :)

Anywayz, the ICC Champions Trophy game vs. Aus will be a good indicator.....
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: indcricfan on May 01, 2006, 03:21:20 AM
Batting-- Australia has 4 batsmen in Top 10, India 3 (who is Out Sachin and Sehwag not in 10). I am sure if Sachin is fit and raring he is any day top 10 so we are even.

Bowling-- Aus have 3 in Top 10 and India have 2 in Top 10. All rounders 1 each

This kind of shows we are very near being # 2. Last time we had this going so well was in 1999

But our supporting cast was bad. If Top order fails we were to lose, I think that is where we are better today I feel.

Is AUS #1 side today yes, Can india be in future-- Maybe

Remember the same great australian bowling let SA score 338 chasing ;D

Earlier if anyone asked me to bet between Aus Ind ODI I would say 70-30 and also saying Sachin or Ganguly needs to fire, but now it is probably 55 45 with no one particular player needing to fire.

Earlier if Sachin/SG/VS got out we could shut down TV and say match is done with and our chances would go from 70 30 to 90-10
Now probably it stays at 55-45 maybe 60-40 thats the key difference in the team. If we really had this kind of support cast and attitude when Sachin/SG were at the Top we would have probably won 1999. Just look at matches we lost in 1999 after  all good starts no support cast

Once Again I do say we are not best today, but we can give run for australias money on most of days.


Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on May 01, 2006, 03:42:35 AM
You are an optimistic indcricfan :) Applaud your post.
justforkix has a point too. But lets hope we have seen only half the potential of Munaf and Sreesanth.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on May 01, 2006, 04:22:21 AM
22Y, The difference in fielding is telling when we look past Yuvi and Raina. We have about half dozen good fielders but the rest of them just don't measure up to Aussie standards. I like Raina's fielding too and I hope that he works hard on his batting so that he can evolve into the World Class batsman. Perhaps it is a little early to tell whether he is as good as Clarke? We'll see.

I am being realistic rather than pessimistic about India's chances. We can never overestimate the Aussies. It is best to realize that we have to very well prepared if we want to be serious about beating them in the WC. Fineleg would tell you - I am not pessimistic by nature. ;D ;D


Yes, ur only being realistic  - I agree  :D
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Blwe_torch on May 01, 2006, 05:29:23 AM
I feel Dizzy is known more for his batting than his bowling nowadays!
Going by Australia's plight against Bangladesh recently, I feel there is no point hyping up Australia's chances.
Circumspection is desirable, but in a battle don't over-estimate your opponents!
Probably, they see us, as we tend to see them. They must be mighty worried abt Sehwag, Dhoni, Yuvraj and Raina!
Good for us! :)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Blwe_torch on May 01, 2006, 05:37:26 AM

I agree with you Rams!
Persisting with ordinary players is a recipe for fool-hardiness.
GC must remember that Team India is not up for his Grand gamble!
Blwe:Also I have no problems with GC/RD's mantra of looking for the future.  I am all for it.  What is little perplexing is not giving these proven performers a chance.  As an example when RD was rested they called in VRV as a replacement.  I mean that did not make any sense whatsoever.  I mean for a big event like a WC a SG or a VVS who has done very well against great teams can be handy.  Sure you can be dismissive as well.  You can do that about RD, if you choose so.  But IMO youth can be tried at the same time and play VVS or a SG as well given the number of games we have.  Then among KAIF/VENU/VVS/SG/RU etc, pick the best based on these games to the WC.  That is not all that bad an idea.

I agree, and let me add that every other captain/coach worth his salt have 'looked towards the future'. No problem there. This ' looking towards the future ' got highlighted from time to time on an  'issue-based' manner.
Whenever a proven super-star was dropped in the history, it was done to look towards the future.
Only, this time the rhetorics ( a lot of blah blah) were there in place too!
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Prem Chopra on May 01, 2006, 09:47:04 AM
22 Yards ,

Sorry going off topic, But your writing style resembles that of Prem Panicker.
Even I am on a different name here because of my contract with HT, canít reveal my name. This is my first post .Cricket Voice has all the ingredients to become the next Cricinfo or even better in near future. I wonít be surprised if few more known writers soon be on an alias here. 
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: worma on May 01, 2006, 09:48:06 AM
kix: the indcricfan post still looks like about Indian batting vs Aussie batting to me. And your reply was to that....that Aussies dont just have average contributors.

Atleast thats how I saw it...

That is true. But I still believe that even if compare Aus and Ind batter by batter, Aus have much more match winners with vast experience who have proved it on the big stage and who can adapt to any situation than India.

Symonds, Hussey, Punter, Clarke, Hayden can slog or accumulate. Gilly can slog. Martyn can accumulate. I agree we are moving in that direction. But don't have near that amound of experience that Aus have.
What I feel is that the current Indian lineup, esp if you include Sachin (and assume he returns even as decent as he did after the elbow injury), is playing as good as the Aussies. Ofcourse we haven't played them recently...and ofcourse we haven't played outside the subcontinent (since this good form of our team)..but then we can only talk of what we have seen. If we suck badly outside, I will change my opinion.

So..coming back to comparison.....well the Aussies have not been in too great form either....just check out Gilly's average in last 15-20 games (minus that against BD) and you'll find it similar to Sachin's. Yuvraj and Dhoni are comparable, or better than Symonds and Hussey.

Raina is comparable with Clarke (forget his potential etc etc....just look at what he has done in ODIs in recent times...esp late in middle order...and compare that with Raina. Remember matches are not won my potential....we look at ground reality).

Rahul plus Pathan (up the order) make up for Ponting and Martyn (Ponting is more explosive than Rahul....yet less consistent. Martyn has been ordinary of late. Again, forget skillset an potential)

Yes we have a second opener problem (if you want to call it that, with Sehwag) and Aussies have Katich...although he would rarely win them a match, even on his good day.

As to the point about accumulating and collecting.....for us Raina, Pathan, Dhoni, Yuvraj have shown enough samples of both styles in recent times....so what are we complaining about?

Once again, a closing reminder....I am not comparing the *potential* of the two lineups...those are better judged in test matches. I am comparing their ODI performances, contributions in the current form.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Blwe_torch on May 01, 2006, 10:42:26 AM
22 Yards ,

Sorry going off topic, But your writing style resembles that of Prem Panicker.
Even I am on a different name here because of my contract with HT, canít reveal my name. This is my first post .Cricket Voice has all the ingredients to become the next Cricinfo or even better in near future. I wonít be surprised if few more known writers soon be on an alias here. 


Welcome Mr.Prem!
Thanks for your encouraging words!
We look forward to many interactions with you in the coming future.
I feel, I can guess. :)
But I'd rather let you remain anonymous! :)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: pieterSAN on May 01, 2006, 10:42:57 AM
Worma, good work.

However, jfk's point about the relative strength of the bowling attacks faced makes a difference. The Indians have to play Aussie bowling while the Aussies have to face Indian bowling. Fact is even after a super run, we are clutching at straws to show that this team can match the Aussies. To me that is a warning sign, but let's hope for the best.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: worma on May 01, 2006, 10:53:57 AM
Worma, good work.

However, jfk's point about the relative strength of the bowling attacks faced makes a difference. The Indians have to play Aussie bowling while the Aussies have to face Indian bowling. Fact is even after a super run, we are clutching at straws to show that this team can match the Aussies. To me that is a warning sign, but let's hope for the best.
Ok...let me stick the neck out a bit further then....I think the Aussie ODI bowling today is no way superior to Indian...so even on that count, I would say we compare well with their batting lineup. A faceoff in October (we have a triangular against Aus, Pak in Abu Dhabi) would give a good indication.

Ofcourse, McGrath and Warne returning to their ODI attack would change things quite a lot...but thats conjecture as of now..
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: rajesh on May 01, 2006, 12:05:43 PM
Aussie ODI bowling attack is very very poor ...
clarke(guy is dangerous if pitch is spacy or double paced) and bracken(good swing bowler like our pathan) are good bowlers,not threatening.
Usually Aus go with just 4 bowlers and hogg is one of them. if we cannot throw hogg and symonds out of the ground ,may be our batting is not explosive . that's it.If mcgrath does not come for world cup, most of the teams will pile huge scores against Australia.
It is just the Aussie batting that could throw us out. People will point to AUssies pathetic battig performabnce in SA... but mind u that is against a gud bowling attack.Our bowling  cannnot come near that


Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: rajesh on May 01, 2006, 12:12:43 PM
Batting
 There is a high probability that current Indian team might look like a INdia A team when we start loosing ... or when we go to SA on tehir quick pitches. Currently we are too gud on our pitches and taht is great. If we could win with such a peformance, then if we improve in our top order, we might be a force to reckon with

I don't see India competing against Australia with the likes of uthappa or kaif.
Believe me uthappa will be sorted out by fast bowlers as he has only one way of playing  (Front foot). Not a candidate as a opener.
Kaif - less said teh better. A person who in his prime form can atbest be a support cast against lowly ranked teams ... u cannot select a person just for his fielding .. whatever be his team spirit and athletiism.

SRT and VS   = Gilly and Katich
YS,RD,Dhoni   = ponting,martyn and symonds (orders not withstanding)
IP and raina   = Hussey
???               = Clarke
RP                =  Lee

Atleast we are 1 batsman short

 
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on May 01, 2006, 01:49:28 PM
Prem Chopra,
Thank You :)
Yes, I agree. Cricket Voice has the potential to become one of the top cricket sites.
Coming to the topic,
Worma,
Some very good points there. Let me add this too, They NEED Glenn more than, lets say, we NEED Sachin . He is the kind of bowler who can control explosive batsmen like Virender and Graeme Smith. Having said that, its not easy for Glenn to come and bowl those 'don't touch me' deliveries.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: ramshorns on May 01, 2006, 03:25:28 PM
Rahul plus Pathan (up the order) make up for Ponting and Martyn (Ponting is more explosive than Rahul....yet less consistent. Martyn has been ordinary of late. Again, forget skillset an potential)

I am in no way in agreement with that.  All things considered I will take Pointing over Rahul anyday in a ODI.  And Pathan to Martyn is a no comaprision. Let us atleast wait till how Pathan as a batsman does in WI and SA.  Even then I do not know how we can compare the two.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on May 01, 2006, 03:57:40 PM
Rahul plus Pathan (up the order) make up for Ponting and Martyn (Ponting is more explosive than Rahul....yet less consistent. Martyn has been ordinary of late. Again, forget skillset an potential)

I am in no way in agreement with that.  All things considered I will take Pointing over Rahul anyday in a ODI.  And Pathan to Martyn is a no comaprision. Let us atleast wait till how Pathan as a batsman does in WI and SA.  Even then I do not know how we can compare the two.

Worma,
I am very surprised u have said this. Got to agree with Rams - Ponting over RD anyday in ODI, and IP is still establishing himself as batsman - Damien Martyn and IP cannot even begin to compare.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: pieterSAN on May 01, 2006, 04:10:44 PM
Rahul plus Pathan (up the order) make up for Ponting and Martyn (Ponting is more explosive than Rahul....yet less consistent. Martyn has been ordinary of late. Again, forget skillset an potential)

I am in no way in agreement with that.  All things considered I will take Pointing over Rahul anyday in a ODI.  And Pathan to Martyn is a no comaprision. Let us atleast wait till how Pathan as a batsman does in WI and SA.  Even then I do not know how we can compare the two.

Worma,
I am very surprised u have said this. Got to agree with Rams - Ponting over RD anyday in ODI, and IP is still establishing himself as batsman - Damien Martyn and IP cannot even begin to compare.

Worma is going by current form in that analysis. Pathan has done better in than Martyn recently.

But we really are clutching at straws to make the argument.  As for comparing the bowling, it makes no sense to do so since most of the players have barely played 20 games. Sreesanth, Munaf have just gotten starts. An attack of Lee, Clark, Bracken, Hogg and Symonds is always going to trump ours.

Worma, please don't say that the fielding of late has been at least as good as Aussie fielding because it would hurt your credibility.  :D
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: gouravk on May 01, 2006, 04:28:47 PM
But there need not be a one to one match. It is the overall combination that matters.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on May 01, 2006, 04:32:26 PM
But there need not be a one to one match. It is the overall combination that matters.

Yes, overall contributions is a main area where Aussies have always excelled.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: worma on May 01, 2006, 05:37:49 PM
Rahul plus Pathan (up the order) make up for Ponting and Martyn (Ponting is more explosive than Rahul....yet less consistent. Martyn has been ordinary of late. Again, forget skillset an potential)

I am in no way in agreement with that.  All things considered I will take Pointing over Rahul anyday in a ODI.  And Pathan to Martyn is a no comaprision. Let us atleast wait till how Pathan as a batsman does in WI and SA.  Even then I do not know how we can compare the two.

Worma,
I am very surprised u have said this. Got to agree with Rams - Ponting over RD anyday in ODI, and IP is still establishing himself as batsman - Damien Martyn and IP cannot even begin to compare.
fineleg (and rams also): you have fallen into the trap/premise that I repeated 3 times I was trying to avoid.

1) I am not comparing these players on their overall career-vise *quality* or *potential* etc etc. Merely comparing their performance, as the reality on ground, in past one season or so

2) I did not compare Ponting with Rahul....I compared Rahul + Pathan (when playing up the order) with Ponting + Martyn. There is a difference in the two comparisons, hope you see that?

3) Btw...and this is not the part of my original argument, just took it from yours just now...Check out the average *and*  impact on the game that Pathan playing up the order has had in the past one season. Now compare that with Martyn in the same period. Why is Martyn better, can you tell me?

Once again...please try to keep the *potential* and *career history* etc kind of things out of this, if you can.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: worma on May 01, 2006, 05:39:46 PM
Rahul plus Pathan (up the order) make up for Ponting and Martyn (Ponting is more explosive than Rahul....yet less consistent. Martyn has been ordinary of late. Again, forget skillset an potential)

I am in no way in agreement with that.  All things considered I will take Pointing over Rahul anyday in a ODI.  And Pathan to Martyn is a no comaprision. Let us atleast wait till how Pathan as a batsman does in WI and SA.  Even then I do not know how we can compare the two.

Worma,
I am very surprised u have said this. Got to agree with Rams - Ponting over RD anyday in ODI, and IP is still establishing himself as batsman - Damien Martyn and IP cannot even begin to compare.

Worma is going by current form in that analysis. Pathan has done better in than Martyn recently.

But we really are clutching at straws to make the argument.  As for comparing the bowling, it makes no sense to do so since most of the players have barely played 20 games. Sreesanth, Munaf have just gotten starts. An attack of Lee, Clark, Bracken, Hogg and Symonds is always going to trump ours.

Worma, please don't say that the fielding of late has been at least as good as Aussie fielding because it would hurt your credibility.  :D
Yeah won't say the same for fielding...although we can get there soon :-)

No...I dont think Lee, Clark, Bracken, Hogg, Symonds would trump Pathan, Bhajji, Powar, AA, Santh....not going by current ODI performances. Why do you?
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: worma on May 01, 2006, 05:41:33 PM
Prem Chopra,
Thank You :)
Yes, I agree. Cricket Voice has the potential to become one of the top cricket sites.
Coming to the topic,
Worma,
Some very good points there. Let me add this too, They NEED Glenn more than, lets say, we NEED Sachin . He is the kind of bowler who can control explosive batsmen like Virender and Graeme Smith. Having said that, its not easy for Glenn to come and bowl those 'don't touch me' deliveries.
Yeah...its very difficult for him to do it immediately into his comeback....but McG is special...he's done it in the past. I would, if forced to, bet on him doing it..rather than against.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: worma on May 01, 2006, 05:52:18 PM
But there need not be a one to one match. It is the overall combination that matters.

Yes, overall contributions is a main area where Aussies have always excelled.
Which is why this argument on current form....they *look* equal to us in recent times. Ofcourse all those riders, that I listed earlier, do apply.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Cover Point on May 01, 2006, 05:52:59 PM
I am still somewhat in my haitus mode so missed some good discussions here. Is it too late to attack Ramji for being "himself" ? :)

Anyway to the point of Aus lineup.

I can not imagine us considering our batting lineup (away from India) at the same level as Aus.

Sachin has not shown any level of ability to be close to his best ... and in ODI's him and Sehwag are the ONLy indians who could match the aussies.

Symonds .. who is being so under valued here ..is a butcher!!! When on fire ... he can cream anyone. No Indian ...none ...Dhoni Yuvi included ..can match his savagery .... We dont have players who can play THOSE kinds of strokes. Few can .... Maybe Pieterson.... and thats it!

I hate ponting. But have to grudgingly admit that Today's ponting is the best player in the world. Hussey's stats speak for themselves.

And what speaks of the Australian dominance is that for the last so long we have been hearing about decline of Gilchrist etc etc .. still ranked #1 in the world!!! just shows that that particular lineup is way ahead of anything else we have seen.

India has a good team but we are not to Aussie level yet. On a good day we can beat them ..yes. But Sahir would still give the favorites tag to the Aussies.

--CP

PS: And yes. Need to clear my throat! uhhhhh Ganguly Sucks!
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: ramshorns on May 01, 2006, 05:55:51 PM
Rahul plus Pathan (up the order) make up for Ponting and Martyn (Ponting is more explosive than Rahul....yet less consistent. Martyn has been ordinary of late. Again, forget skillset an potential)

I am in no way in agreement with that.  All things considered I will take Pointing over Rahul anyday in a ODI.  And Pathan to Martyn is a no comaprision. Let us atleast wait till how Pathan as a batsman does in WI and SA.  Even then I do not know how we can compare the two.

Worma,
I am very surprised u have said this. Got to agree with Rams - Ponting over RD anyday in ODI, and IP is still establishing himself as batsman - Damien Martyn and IP cannot even begin to compare.
fineleg (and rams also): you have fallen into the trap/premise that I repeated 3 times I was trying to avoid.

1) I am not comparing these players on their overall career-vise *quality* or *potential* etc etc. Merely comparing their performance, as the reality on ground, in past one season or so

2) I did not compare Ponting with Rahul....I compared Rahul + Pathan (when playing up the order) with Ponting + Martyn. There is a difference in the two comparisons, hope you see that?

3) Btw...and this is not the part of my original argument, just took it from yours just now...Check out the average *and*  impact on the game that Pathan playing up the order has had in the past one season. Now compare that with Martyn in the same period. Why is Martyn better, can you tell me?

Once again...please try to keep the *potential* and *career history* etc kind of things out of this, if you can.
OK Worma I got it.  In that case we got to agree to disagree on that one and move on.  Because Pathan is an unproven commodity out of the sub-continent.  To me averages mean only so much.   We need to also consider the opponents, conditions etc.  Not to say Pathan will not succeed but we do not know that yet.  May be Martyn is not consistent today but who is to say he won't 2 months from now or at the time of the WC.  To put it I will take Ponting + Martyn over Rahul + Pathan any day of the week and feel good about my chances if I were a betting man.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: justforkix on May 01, 2006, 06:06:16 PM
No...I dont think Lee, Clark, Bracken, Hogg, Symonds would trump Pathan, Bhajji, Powar, AA, Santh....not going by current ODI performances. Why do you?

Current ODI performances of batters/bowlers of both teams may be a bit misleading - diff conditions, opponents etc., although I can't think of a better indicator for current form :).

Yes. I think (Gilly, Ponting, Hussey, Clarke, Symonds, Martyn, Katich vs. IP, HS, RP, AA, SS) will trump over (SRT, VS, RD, YS, SR, MSD, IP vs. Lee, Bracken, Clark, Hogg, Symo).

You are really underestimating the savagery (if there is such a word :)) of Symo, Hussey, Punter and Gilly over average/inexperienced bowlers :)

anywayz, as both of us have said, Champions trophy will be a good indicator as to how we measure up against Austraia.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: worma on May 01, 2006, 06:06:45 PM
Rahul plus Pathan (up the order) make up for Ponting and Martyn (Ponting is more explosive than Rahul....yet less consistent. Martyn has been ordinary of late. Again, forget skillset an potential)

I am in no way in agreement with that.  All things considered I will take Pointing over Rahul anyday in a ODI.  And Pathan to Martyn is a no comaprision. Let us atleast wait till how Pathan as a batsman does in WI and SA.  Even then I do not know how we can compare the two.
Worma,
I am very surprised u have said this. Got to agree with Rams - Ponting over RD anyday in ODI, and IP is still establishing himself as batsman - Damien Martyn and IP cannot even begin to compare.
fineleg (and rams also): you have fallen into the trap/premise that I repeated 3 times I was trying to avoid.

1) I am not comparing these players on their overall career-vise *quality* or *potential* etc etc. Merely comparing their performance, as the reality on ground, in past one season or so

2) I did not compare Ponting with Rahul....I compared Rahul + Pathan (when playing up the order) with Ponting + Martyn. There is a difference in the two comparisons, hope you see that?

3) Btw...and this is not the part of my original argument, just took it from yours just now...Check out the average *and*  impact on the game that Pathan playing up the order has had in the past one season. Now compare that with Martyn in the same period. Why is Martyn better, can you tell me?

Once again...please try to keep the *potential* and *career history* etc kind of things out of this, if you can.
OK Worma I got it.  In that case we got to agree to disagree on that one and move on.  Because Pathan is an unproven commodity out of the sub-continent.  To me averages mean only so much.   We need to also consider the opponents, conditions etc.  Not to say Pathan will not succeed but we do not know that yet.  May be Martyn is not consistent today but who is to say he won't 2 months from now or at the time of the WC.  To put it I will take Ponting + Martyn over Rahul + Pathan any day of the week and feel good about my chances if I were a betting man.
rams...one of my original riders was that 'I agree that the improved Indian lot has not been out of subcontinent...therefore we hold out judgement on that'...but we can speak only of what we have at hand. Or not speak at all...right?

Btw...if some of our players havent proven outside subcontinent...then neither have some of the Aussies in these conditions.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: worma on May 01, 2006, 06:09:17 PM
No...I dont think Lee, Clark, Bracken, Hogg, Symonds would trump Pathan, Bhajji, Powar, AA, Santh....not going by current ODI performances. Why do you?

Current ODI performances of batters/bowlers of both teams may be a bit misleading - diff conditions, opponents etc., although I can't think of a better indicator for current form :).

Yes. I think (Gilly, Ponting, Hussey, Clarke, Symonds, Martyn, Katich vs. IP, HS, RP, AA, SS) will trump over (SRT, VS, RD, YS, SR, MSD, IP vs. Lee, Bracken, Clark, Hogg, Symo).

You are really underestimating the savagery (if there is such a word :)) of Symo, Hussey, Punter and Gilly over average/inexperienced bowlers :)

anywayz, as both of us have said, Champions trophy will be a good indicator as to how we measure up against Austraia.
Better indicator would be that triseries against Pak and Aus in Abu Dhabi...its before CT. And btw, in recent times, I've often said this that ODI coditions around the world are not that different. You know, Aussies have played as much, if not actually more, 300+ kind of ODIs than us in this season.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: worma on May 01, 2006, 06:14:15 PM
coverpoint and jfk: no I am not underestimating the savagery of Hussye and Symonds...they are great ODI players today....but so are Yuvraj and Dhoni. We played against all top ranking teams this season, except Aus, and both did well. I don't really understand what gives you the impression that on current form our duo is any less? Ofcourse, once again, I would myself add that they have to play out of home conditions (well....read my previous post....ODI is getting same kind of conditions all around, these days...but anyway that aside..) and same way Hussey also needs to prove himself in the sluggish or spin or grind kind of ODI conditions.

Coverpoint, one note for you....can you please forget where these players stand in test matches, and base your opinion on ODI performances this season? E.g. Do you know that twise this season teams have chased down BIG 300+ totals against Aussies?...and one more time Nz threatened to do it, fell just short. And this was outside the so called batting friendly subcontinent
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Cover Point on May 01, 2006, 06:29:11 PM
coverpoint and jfk: no I am not underestimating the savagery of Hussye and Symonds...they are great ODI players today....but so are Yuvraj and Dhoni. We played against all top ranking teams this season, except Aus, and both did well. I don't really understand what gives you the impression that on current form our duo is any less? Ofcourse, once again, I would myself add that they have to play out of home conditions (well....read my previous post....ODI is getting same kind of conditions all around, these days...but anyway that aside..) and same way Hussey also needs to prove himself in the sluggish or spin or grind kind of ODI conditions.

Coverpoint, one note for you....can you please forget where these players stand in test matches, and base your opinion on ODI performances this season? E.g. Do you know that twise this season teams have chased down BIG 300+ totals against Aussies?...and one more time Nz threatened to do it, fell just short. And this was outside the so called batting friendly subcontinent

Fair enough... so that chasing down is an indication of the ability of Aussie bowlers rather than batting and I have not commented on the aussie bowling yet.

The point is that the kind of consistent Savagery I have seen from Symonds .. I havent seen from Dhoni or Yuvi. I think Symonds return was 2003 WC against Pak with that 148. Symonds has only gotten better. The way Symonds (and ponting too for that matter) have the ability to score big and fast in the death I havent seen replicated. Symonds can hit sixes at will. Anytime Symonds has gone past 50 ... just see his strike rate between 50 to until he finishes. Our players just dont seem to have to stamina for those consistent big hits.

Dont get me wrong. I am all for supporting our players and all ... but symonds, Ponting and hussey are on a different plane! Only Sachin and Sehwag have the same ability and Sachin's case it seems is more of HAD (Sehwag I believe will come back in form)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: worma on May 01, 2006, 06:32:22 PM
coverpoint and jfk: no I am not underestimating the savagery of Hussye and Symonds...they are great ODI players today....but so are Yuvraj and Dhoni. We played against all top ranking teams this season, except Aus, and both did well. I don't really understand what gives you the impression that on current form our duo is any less? Ofcourse, once again, I would myself add that they have to play out of home conditions (well....read my previous post....ODI is getting same kind of conditions all around, these days...but anyway that aside..) and same way Hussey also needs to prove himself in the sluggish or spin or grind kind of ODI conditions.

Coverpoint, one note for you....can you please forget where these players stand in test matches, and base your opinion on ODI performances this season? E.g. Do you know that twise this season teams have chased down BIG 300+ totals against Aussies?...and one more time Nz threatened to do it, fell just short. And this was outside the so called batting friendly subcontinent

Fair enough... so that chasing down is an indication of the ability of Aussie bowlers rather than batting and I have not commented on the aussie bowling yet.

The point is that the kind of consistent Savagery I have seen from Symonds .. I havent seen from Dhoni or Yuvi. I think Symonds return was 2003 WC against Pak with that 148. Symonds has only gotten better. The way Symonds (and ponting too for that matter) have the ability to score big and fast in the death I havent seen replicated. Symonds can hit sixes at will. Anytime Symonds has gone past 50 ... just see his strike rate between 50 to until he finishes. Our players just dont seem to have to stamina for those consistent big hits.

Dont get me wrong. I am all for supporting our players and all ... but symonds, Ponting and hussey are on a different plane! Only Sachin and Sehwag have the same ability and Sachin's case it seems is more of HAD (Sehwag I believe will come back in form)
I agree that Symonds has performed for a long time (yes since the 'return' against Pak in WC)...and Yuvraj, Dhoni have just started doing it. But who knows whether they would be able to sustain it or not? Maybe they wont, and then I would take back my assertions (I even mentioned this earlier). But right now, this season, they are looking as good.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on May 01, 2006, 06:33:52 PM
Worma,
Rams beat me to it. I was gonna bring up the outside subcontinent issue, but you have already responded to that above. Time and again, we have seen Aussies raise their game up several notches for key matches and series, would u agree?

You are saying past season we compare with them - just keep in mind that come WC-07, they are gonna go up some levels if past is anything to go by. What do u think? This is where the "equal looking" Aussies, rise over other opponents, they just go Turbo-boost for key matches/series.
 
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Cover Point on May 01, 2006, 06:49:52 PM
Worma,
Rams beat me to it. I was gonna bring up the outside subcontinent issue, but you have already responded to that above. Time and again, we have seen Aussies raise their game up several notches for key matches and series, would u agree?

You are saying past season we compare with them - just keep in mind that come WC-07, they are gonna go up some levels if past is anything to go by. What do u think? This is where the "equal looking" Aussies, rise over other opponents, they just go Turbo-boost for key matches/series.
 

and i still dont buy the equal hype and do buy the hype that they will raise their game a few notches. scary.

For a while I was thinking .... ok good Hayden seems to be getting out of ODI's gilchrist will fade .. wrath is done .. so aussies will come back to da earth! And then they produce a Hussey and all hope fades :)

In terms of pure destructive power, Gilchrist, Ponting, Symonds, Hussey cant be matched.

On another note, we seem to hype our "allrounders" so much. I mean a pathan being what he is and all ... but has anyone noticed how Blee seems to be batting? I need to look up stats but seems like he has been batting well in both tests and odi's. So there is another one :(
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: worma on May 01, 2006, 06:51:39 PM
Worma,
Rams beat me to it. I was gonna bring up the outside subcontinent issue, but you have already responded to that above. Time and again, we have seen Aussies raise their game up several notches for key matches and series, would u agree?

You are saying past season we compare with them - just keep in mind that come WC-07, they are gonna go up some levels if past is anything to go by. What do u think? This is where the "equal looking" Aussies, rise over other opponents, they just go Turbo-boost for key matches/series.
 
good point, fineleg. About Aussies raising their game for the key moments. Sure..no-one else does it so well, agreed (except maybe Imran's Pak did it that time). On that front...we can just wait and see how this Indian side goes. If we are not able to match the Aussies on that aspect...then we won't have a chance...I too fear.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on May 01, 2006, 06:53:32 PM
Noticed a bit, but not a lot abt B.Lee batting - shucks, is he really becoming a pain by scoring runs? :-\
Would not want him to develop too much batting skills, now!  >:(

CP,
You have a response pending in the Lakhan thread I believe!
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=2612.msg36642#msg36642
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: worma on May 01, 2006, 06:54:32 PM
Worma,
Rams beat me to it. I was gonna bring up the outside subcontinent issue, but you have already responded to that above. Time and again, we have seen Aussies raise their game up several notches for key matches and series, would u agree?

You are saying past season we compare with them - just keep in mind that come WC-07, they are gonna go up some levels if past is anything to go by. What do u think? This is where the "equal looking" Aussies, rise over other opponents, they just go Turbo-boost for key matches/series.
 

and i still dont buy the equal hype and do buy the hype that they will raise their game a few notches. scary.

For a while I was thinking .... ok good Hayden seems to be getting out of ODI's gilchrist will fade .. wrath is done .. so aussies will come back to da earth! And then they produce a Hussey and all hope fades :)

In terms of pure destructive power, Gilchrist, Ponting, Symonds, Hussey cant be matched.

On another note, we seem to hype our "allrounders" so much. I mean a pathan being what he is and all ... but has anyone noticed how Blee seems to be batting? I need to look up stats but seems like he has been batting well in both tests and odi's. So there is another one :(
Pathan, as an allrounder *in ODIs*, is not a hype. He is the 2nd ranked ODI bowler, and 3rd ranked ODI allrounder. Why do you think *we* are hyping it?

Ofcourse they all need to prove outside the subcontinent (Pathan the bowler has shown glimpses of what he can do, already) but on that front, as I said, we have to wait for the results of this whole outfit...not just him
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on May 01, 2006, 06:55:46 PM
Worma,
Rams beat me to it. I was gonna bring up the outside subcontinent issue, but you have already responded to that above. Time and again, we have seen Aussies raise their game up several notches for key matches and series, would u agree?

You are saying past season we compare with them - just keep in mind that come WC-07, they are gonna go up some levels if past is anything to go by. What do u think? This is where the "equal looking" Aussies, rise over other opponents, they just go Turbo-boost for key matches/series.
 
good point, fineleg. About Aussies raising their game for the key moments. Sure..no-one else does it so well, agreed (except maybe Imran's Pak did it that time). On that front...we can just wait and see how this Indian side goes. If we are not able to match the Aussies on that aspect...then we won't have a chance...I too fear.

Yep, worma - that may ultimately decide it. The head-on or team comparisons go so far and no further.
It is the ability to kick up the levels for key matches and series!
(Sorry to bring this here, but that is where I have to agree that vvs has done it better in indian side).
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: worma on May 01, 2006, 06:57:03 PM
Worma,
Rams beat me to it. I was gonna bring up the outside subcontinent issue, but you have already responded to that above. Time and again, we have seen Aussies raise their game up several notches for key matches and series, would u agree?

You are saying past season we compare with them - just keep in mind that come WC-07, they are gonna go up some levels if past is anything to go by. What do u think? This is where the "equal looking" Aussies, rise over other opponents, they just go Turbo-boost for key matches/series.
 
good point, fineleg. About Aussies raising their game for the key moments. Sure..no-one else does it so well, agreed (except maybe Imran's Pak did it that time). On that front...we can just wait and see how this Indian side goes. If we are not able to match the Aussies on that aspect...then we won't have a chance...I too fear.

Yep, worma - that may ultimately decide it. The head-on or team comparisons go so far and no further.
It is the ability to kick up the levels for key matches and series!
(Sorry to bring this here, but that is where I have to agree that vvs has done it better in indian side).
If by key matches you only mean against Aussies..then yes he's done it better than most.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on May 01, 2006, 06:57:37 PM

If by key matches you only mean against Aussies..then yes he's done it better than most.

He did it in Pak too. Thats how we got the glory of ODI series win in Pak for first time.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: worma on May 01, 2006, 07:00:45 PM

If by key matches you only mean against Aussies..then yes he's done it better than most.

He did it in Pak too. Thats how we got the glory of ODI series win in Pak for first time.
Not taking away anything from him, but if that is what you mean by a key match, then Sachin, Saurav and some others in this team have 'been there done that' quite a few times...before and after...no?
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on May 01, 2006, 07:03:54 PM

If by key matches you only mean against Aussies..then yes he's done it better than most.

He did it in Pak too. Thats how we got the glory of ODI series win in Pak for first time.
Not taking away anything from him, but if that is what you mean by a key match, then Sachin, Saurav and some others in this team have 'been there done that' quite a few times...before and after...no?

They have done so as well on occasions - here we may differ on who has done it when it was most needed and more often. But, suffice to say, it is the importance of raising the levels in a key series that Aus posess and we hopefully can learn that.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: gouravk on May 01, 2006, 07:15:41 PM
I agree with Worma on the Pathan issue. I think he is a rare gem of a cricketer. It is just that when he is not on song it all goes horribly wrong for us. I see him as at least a 250+ wicket taker in either form of the game and a scorer of at least 4000+ runs before he is done. And these are pretty lose lower bounds.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: worma on May 01, 2006, 07:24:34 PM
I agree with Worma on the Pathan issue. I think he is a rare gem of a cricketer. It is just that when he is not on song it all goes horribly wrong for us. I see him as at least a 250+ wicket taker in either form of the game and a scorer of at least 4000+ runs before he is done. And these are pretty lose lower bounds.
gourav: even I think he has to learn a few more tricks...esp in test matches in unfriendly conditions. But here the discussion was purely about ODIs...and in that form, I think, he's pretty good already. So the importance given to him is well deserved, in ODIs.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: gouravk on May 01, 2006, 07:26:22 PM
of course, but my prediction stands.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on May 01, 2006, 07:33:57 PM
of course, but my prediction stands.

 [god] predictions vs my percentages! LOL :)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Cover Point on May 01, 2006, 07:34:18 PM
fineleg will respond in that thread.

In this one, OK dont get me wrong about Pathan. Was probably a poor choice of words on my part but I didn ot mean to belittle Pathan. I believe his ODI bowling will be better away ... specially in places like kiwiland and Pommieland where there is swing to be had.

My point was that our (good players) seem to get much more hype than others. Blee was an example of someone who has been pretty consistent in scoring with the bat but no one calls him an allrounder. Even Warne in tests has shown  consistency with the bat. And we have seen Dizzy score a double.

No arguments ... just tyring to show that Aussies is a deep and dangerous team. We need to get there!
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: worma on May 01, 2006, 07:39:23 PM
fineleg will respond in that thread.

In this one, OK dont get me wrong about Pathan. Was probably a poor choice of words on my part but I didn ot mean to belittle Pathan. I believe his ODI bowling will be better away ... specially in places like kiwiland and Pommieland where there is swing to be had.

My point was that our (good players) seem to get much more hype than others. Blee was an example of someone who has been pretty consistent in scoring with the bat but no one calls him an allrounder. Even Warne in tests has shown  consistency with the bat. And we have seen Dizzy score a double.

No arguments ... just tyring to show that Aussies is a deep and dangerous team. We need to get there!
Yes Lee has been playing well in ODIs...as a bowler who can bail team out...he looks to be getting to the Bichel kind of role. Anyways...if he does even better...he would automatically start being ranked as an allrounder...no probs with that. And that has no impact (or atleast it should not have) on how we judge Pathan as an ODI allrounder, IMO. No?

About Gillespie...have already said....infact just before his century....that he has started batting well enough to figure into the Aussies batting 'plans' (in the sense that they can define a role for him...and use that in overall batting strategy...e.g. do away with the allrounder..or e.g.2 use him to bat for time even in first innings, as a strategy, of slowing things down)..so he's a non-conventional test allrounder in that sense
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: justforkix on May 01, 2006, 07:39:37 PM
Better indicator would be that triseries against Pak and Aus in Abu Dhabi...its before CT. And btw, in recent times, I've often said this that ODI coditions around the world are not that different. You know, Aussies have played as much, if not actually more, 300+ kind of ODIs than us in this season.

Oh cool. I didn't know we were playing such a tourney. tough to keep track of nowadays ;). That will be interesting to watch.

coverpoint and jfk: no I am not underestimating the savagery of Hussye and Symonds...they are great ODI players today....but so are Yuvraj and Dhoni. We played against all top ranking teams this season, except Aus, and both did well. I don't really understand what gives you the impression that on current form our duo is any less?

It is just a feel and qualitative assessment if you are willing to accept that. Just from what I have seen all 4 players do. So, we can leave it at that - agree to disagree. Also, my feeling is our bowlers will lose the plot more and faster with the savagery of Symo and Hussey than for e.g., Aussie bowlers losing the plot against Yuvi and Dhoni.

Also, my basic point is can our bowlers stand the continuous savagery in the Aussie batting lineup - Gilly as opener, Ponting at #3, Symo at #5, Hussey at #6. Our bowlers are inexperienced and have not faced this kind of a batting lineup !!!! - bunch of psychos !!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on May 01, 2006, 07:57:12 PM
A very nice debate.
But I don't know if you'd noticed, almost all of us agree, can I assume, that its going to be an Ind-Aus Final :)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: hastalavistababy on May 01, 2006, 08:00:58 PM
A very nice debate.
But I don't know if you'd noticed, almost all of us agree, can I assume, that its going to be an Ind-Aus Final :)

It can be  Ind-Aus semi-Final
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: justforkix on May 01, 2006, 08:11:48 PM
A very nice debate.
But I don't know if you'd noticed, almost all of us agree, can I assume, that its going to be an Ind-Aus Final :)

3 of Ind, Pak, NZ, SA will be in the Semis for sure  :)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: prfsr on May 01, 2006, 08:12:01 PM
Assuming we do reach the finals and meet Aus (just for the sake of discussion) who are we likely to have beaten in the semis?

-P [too lazy to check...]
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on May 01, 2006, 08:17:09 PM
prfsr,
I can come up with a rough estimation, sometime later tonight. It would be a fun exercise ;)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: worma on May 01, 2006, 08:18:49 PM
Atleast I was commenting purely on a comparison of Indian and Aussie ODI teams as they stand today.

Who knows about the World Cup at this stage. Theres enough time for Lara to inspire WIndies to a better level (they have had right components for a while)...or Ponting misses out the WC due to injury...and Warne and McG dont make an appearance.....and even our own outfit..it can be different by then (Laxman and Saurav are still talking of a WC appearance).
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Cover Point on May 01, 2006, 09:01:34 PM
Wonder what odds Sahir will give on this but I can give a prediction that ONE of Ind, Aus, Pak, NZ, WI, Eng, SL, Bangladesh, Zim, SA, Scotland, Netherland, Bermuda, Kenya, Canada, Ireland
would win the world cup. Even willing to put a dollar on it!

If pushed I can even go far out on a limb and come up with a shorter list of 10 out of it though do not want to shortchange Ireland's chances of winning the cup. What with Afridi playing for them :)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on May 01, 2006, 09:53:48 PM
AUS/SCO-AUS   SL/BER-SL   KEN/CAN-KEN   WI/PAK-PAK
SA/HOL-SA   IND/BAN-IND   ENG/NZ-NZ   ZIM/IRE-X
AUS/HOL-AUS   IND/BER-IND   ENG/CAN-ENG   PAK/IRE-PAK
SA/SCO-SA   SL/BAN-SL   NZ/KEN-NZ   WI/ZIM-WI
SCO/HOL-X   IND/SL-IND   NZ/CAN-NZ   ZIM/PAK-PAK
AUS/SA-AUS   BER/BAN-BAN   ENG/KEN-ENG   WI/IRE-WI

Group A- AUS,SA in that order
Group B-  IND,SL
Group C-  NZ,ENG
Group D- PAK,WI

Super 8 Stage:

WI/AUS-AUS
SA/IND-IND
WI/NZ-WI (Assuming the usual Lara Special)
PAK/ENG-PAK
AUS/SL-AUS
WI/IND-IND
SL/NZ-NZ
PAK/SA-SA
ENG/IND-IND
 SA/SL-SA
AUS/ENG-AUS
PAK/NZ-NZ
 WI/SA-SA
 SL/ENG-ENG
 IND/NZ-IND
 AUS/PAK-AUS
 SA/NZ-SA
 SL/PAK-PAK
 AUS/IND-X
 SA/ENG-SA
 PAK/IND-IND
 WI/SL-WI
 AUS/NZ-AUS
 WI/ENG-ENG


AUS-5, 1 undecided
IND-5, 1 undecided
SA-5
PAK-2
NZ-2
ENG-2
WI-2
SL-0

AUS,IND,SA,NZ GO through Semis. (AUS and IND not necessarily in that order)

Semifinals:

S1: AUS vs SA-AUS or IND vs SA-IND
S2: AUS vs NZ-AUS or IND vs NZ-IND

FINAL: IND vs AUS - IND ;);)

PS: Optimistic Indian Fan view
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: prfsr on May 01, 2006, 10:01:17 PM
22yards: very nice, thank you. Applause sent.

Seems like Ind, Aus, SA are/should be rated very highly.
Pak/Eng/NZ are the second tier.
SL, Zim, WI seem weaker. I guess we will know about Wi soon enough.

So who is the dark horse? Can SL upset some better teams? I would always take them seriously....

-P
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on May 01, 2006, 10:07:08 PM
I have my doubts on these:
SA/IND - SA  has much higher chances of winning this

IND/NZ - NZ very good ODI side, so can't say for sure.

IND/PAK - always, always 50-50.

so change these assumptions a bit and picture may not be that rosy.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on May 01, 2006, 10:08:23 PM
22yards: very nice, thank you. Applause sent.

Seems like Ind, Aus, SA are/should be rated very highly.
Pak/Eng/NZ are the second tier.
SL, Zim, WI seem weaker. I guess we will know about Wi soon enough.

So who is the dark horse? Can SL upset some better teams? I would always take them seriously....

-P

AUS, SA - Highly rated
Ind/Pak/NZ/Eng - all second tier, no difference, can be anybody's match
SL,  WI - on current form, bit weaker - third tier.
Ban, Zim - 4th tier
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on May 01, 2006, 10:10:05 PM
prfsr,
SL is definitely a dark horse. It all depends on how early can  Kumara and Mahela come to the party. And moreover, WI pitches are a bit similar to SL pitches.
Fineleg,
Yes, rosy becomes red then. But this one is  assuming AUS and IND are on top of their games.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on May 01, 2006, 10:14:58 PM
prfsr,
SL is definitely a dark horse. It all depends on how early can  Kumara and Mahela come to the party. And moreover, WI pitches are a bit similar to SL pitches.
Fineleg,
Yes, rosy becomes red then. But this one is  assuming AUS and IND are on top of their games.

Wait a min, WI pitches similar to SL! No, I dont think so.
WI are relatively faster and bouncier - nowhere close to lankan dustbowls or slow turners.

IMO, Dark Horse#1 West Indies (at home, and with Lara)
Dark Horse #2 Sri Lanka
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on May 01, 2006, 10:17:13 PM
Fineleg,
Very true. Can we ignore an increase in the importance of WI and SA tours, as days passby? Me...no
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on May 01, 2006, 10:20:52 PM
Fineleg,
WI pitches have become significantly slower and less bouncier except a couple of them. They are not as bouncy as they used to be in, say early 80s. SL pitches are famous for their low bounce. SL batsmen may find them easier to play on than say, AUS or SA pitches
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: justforkix on May 01, 2006, 10:24:31 PM
AUS, SA - Highly rated
Ind/Pak/NZ/Eng - all second tier, no difference, can be anybody's match
SL,  WI - on current form, bit weaker - third tier.
Ban, Zim - 4th tier

2 areas of disagreement :

Eng are a grossly overrated ODI team in your books  ;D ;D. How can you rate them so highly, when players themselves have openly expressed their lack of interest in ODIs ? Anyway after a 5-0 ashes drubbing and VB series thumping by both Aus and NZ, they will be pretty much down and out  :D :D

Also, sorry, I cannot rate SA along with Aus. that is an overrating for them or underrating Aus ;)

IMO

Aus - 1st tier
SA/Ind/NZ/Pak - 2nd tier : anyone can win on their day among these 4
Eng/SL/WI - 3rd tier : SL and WI inconsistent. Eng zilch interest
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Sahir on May 01, 2006, 10:34:44 PM

Aus - 1st tier
SA/Ind/NZ/Pak - 2nd tier : anyone can win on their day among these 4
Eng/SL/WI - 3rd tier : SL and WI inconsistent. Eng zilch interest


I think I agree with this tier rating, with the possible exception of NZ-- I think I'm tempted to slide them down a tier (they are sort of an in between-er that relies very heavily on Shane Bond).  WI-- I would rate this side as a wild card-- why?  Because they can rapidly move up to the top of the second tier if they realize their talent, but just as easily have the capbility to drop down to the likes of Bangladesh.  The English ODI team really is quite simply a 3 man team-- Flintoff, Pieterson, and Trescothick-- one of those has to win the match-- they are all matchwinners that can beat anybody almost singlehandedly (maybe not Trescothick singlehandedly), but relying so heavily on just a couple of players is not a very high percentage way to play the game.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on May 01, 2006, 10:46:07 PM
Sahir and Kix,
Reason for my "over-rating" of ENG
 Flintoff, Pieterson, and Trescothick - not just those 3
Their bowling attack impresses me - Harmison, Simon Jones (SJ does play odi's right?), Flintoff, Anderson to some extent.

I think they are yet to realize the odi potential. But these bowlers can create problems.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Sahir on May 01, 2006, 11:24:59 PM
Sahir and Kix,
Reason for my "over-rating" of ENG
 Flintoff, Pieterson, and Trescothick - not just those 3
Their bowling attack impresses me - Harmison, Simon Jones (SJ does play odi's right?), Flintoff, Anderson to some extent.

I think they are yet to realize the odi potential. But these bowlers can create problems.

That's true, but I think those express bowlers are much more effective in Tests, as opposed to ODIs.

Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: pieterSAN on May 02, 2006, 12:00:10 AM

Aus - 1st tier
SA/Ind/NZ/Pak - 2nd tier : anyone can win on their day among these 4
Eng/SL/WI - 3rd tier : SL and WI inconsistent. Eng zilch interest


I think I agree with this tier rating, with the possible exception of NZ-- I think I'm tempted to slide them down a tier (they are sort of an in between-er that relies very heavily on Shane Bond).  WI-- I would rate this side as a wild card-- why?  Because they can rapidly move up to the top of the second tier if they realize their talent, but just as easily have the capbility to drop down to the likes of Bangladesh.  The English ODI team really is quite simply a 3 man team-- Flintoff, Pieterson, and Trescothick-- one of those has to win the match-- they are all matchwinners that can beat anybody almost singlehandedly (maybe not Trescothick singlehandedly), but relying so heavily on just a couple of players is not a very high percentage way to play the game.

Englang are not worried about World Cup right now with good reason - winning the Ashes in Australia would be bigger for them. And I think they have their priorities right.

I reckon that they will get a lot more serious about the WC after the Ashes. Trescothick, Pietersen, Flintoff, Harmison and Jones are all matchwinners. Paul Collingwood is also someone who can make a difference. Two months preparation is probably not ideal but still sufficient for them to be able click in the WC.

Tier 1 Aussies
Tier 2 SA, India, Pak, NZ, Eng
Tier 3 SL, WI
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: justforkix on May 02, 2006, 12:20:56 AM
Englang are not worried about World Cup right now with good reason - winning the Ashes in Australia would be bigger for them. And I think they have their priorities right.

That is true. So, if England lose the Ashes, they will be demoralised and lose interest in WC07. If England win the Ashes, they will be in 7th heaven and will take it easy and not bother about WC07  :D :D
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: justforkix on May 02, 2006, 12:37:26 AM
I think I agree with this tier rating, with the possible exception of NZ-- I think I'm tempted to slide them down a tier (they are sort of an in between-er that relies very heavily on Shane Bond).

That is true. But I think NZ is a very good ODI team because they have a lot of "utility" ODI players - Astle, McCullum, Vettori, Oram, Styris, Marshall (I rate him highly, even though he's struggling of late) and of course Fleming.

WI-- I would rate this side as a wild card-- why?  Because they can rapidly move up to the top of the second tier if they realize their talent, but just as easily have the capbility to drop down to the likes of Bangladesh.

I agree. Anything is possible with WI. They have both the talent to beat Aus and lose to Bang ;)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on May 02, 2006, 02:06:23 AM
Anybody up for an upset table ;)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on May 02, 2006, 02:20:45 AM
Anybody up for an upset table ;)

I think Ban is gonna cause an upset or two at WC-07.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Sahir on May 02, 2006, 02:22:36 AM
Anybody up for an upset table ;)

I think Ban is gonna cause an upset or two at WC-07.

Let's hope not since they are playing us in the first round!

Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on May 02, 2006, 02:35:15 AM
A totally upset World Cup may result in a SL/ENG final. (Just played with the original table, thats what I got)  :)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on May 02, 2006, 02:36:30 AM
Anybody up for an upset table ;)

I think Ban is gonna cause an upset or two at WC-07.

Let's hope not since they are playing us in the first round!


Frankly i wish they were not in our Group!!!
Every other group the two teams that are gonna go into Super 8 is clear.

Upset is gonna be rare in other groups, I dont like Ban in our group this time! Get a fishy feeling!
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: justforkix on May 02, 2006, 03:17:23 AM
Frankly i wish they were not in our Group!!!
Every other group the two teams that are gonna go into Super 8 is clear.

Upset is gonna be rare in other groups, I dont like Ban in our group this time! Get a fishy feeling!

Also, we play them 1st up :). That is precisely why we need SG  ;D
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on May 02, 2006, 06:34:32 AM
Frankly i wish they were not in our Group!!!
Every other group the two teams that are gonna go into Super 8 is clear.

Upset is gonna be rare in other groups, I dont like Ban in our group this time! Get a fishy feeling!

Also, we play them 1st up :). That is precisely why we need SG  ;D

This I agree 100% - no one better than SG to make a mincemeat of them minnows!
On the other hand, I dont think Ban are minnows anymore!
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Cover Point on May 02, 2006, 04:39:30 PM
Also, we play them 1st up :). That is precisely why we need SG  ;D

Nah we really need to keep him for bigger matches against last years semi finalists ... like Kenya
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on May 02, 2006, 05:26:24 PM
Oh Coverpoint, I have to disagree with you on that, eventhough you just said it funnily ;)
You know Sachin played numerous extraordinary ODI innings.....no? But in my opinion, I always consider his 81 against Zimbabwe at Bulawayo as his best ever innings. I can appreciate that innings so much because I know how hard it is to keep up the promise you made to someone. Sameway, Sourav's innings against Kenya is one of his best innings. Without that innings and his partnership with Yuvraj, we know what would have happened. Its not the opposition, not the bowlers, in cricket, in my opinion you always have to fight, first, your own self and then the opposition. He played a gem of an innings there.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on May 02, 2006, 07:14:15 PM
I have been trying to say this to somebody for a long time, but couldn't. If you allow me to use this DG to let my heart out, Thank you.
Continuing from my above post, I would like to add this too:

If you, for a sec, imagine Indian Cricket as Hollywood, then Sourav Ganguly is the Marlon Brando. You know, when Marlon died, Jack Nicholson in his condolence speech said this : He gave freedom to us,actors. Its true, he gave freedom to act, freedom to express themselves, freedom to do something extraordinary. I always remember Sourav as the one who gave freedom to the future Indian captains. He gave them freedom to get what they want, freedom to fight with the selectors, freedom to allow the fringe players to prove themselves. Indian captains will do well if they remember that. We know how Sachin publicly expressed his anguish over not getting what he wanted, from the selectors. Oh well, Sourav did mistakes, who didn't? I was deeply hurt as a fan of Marlon when I learnt that he and Rod Steiger(Charlie) were not actually present during the famous cab scene in "On the Waterfront". Marlon used to leave the sets as soon as he finished his part and Rod used to act as if Marlon were present. Reams and reams of paper were used to describe the onscreen chemistry between those two gentlemen, for what? But that doesn't take away the glorious acting, powerful dialogues from that scene. John and Sourav might have had some differences, but together, they taught the players how it feels like, if you put the national flag on your heart, they taught what it feels like to achieve overseas success. You know whats the best part of The Godfather is, its not the movie, its the making of that movie. Al Pacino, Robert de Niro, Robert Duvall, all young and energetic actors, waiting for a break, they got Marlon. Paramount studio head vehemently opposed his selection, he argued it could ruin the careers of those young actors, he argued, Marlon's non-punctuality, rudeness, disrespect to fellow actors might rub onto them. But Francis fought for it. The young actors learnt all the good things from Marlon,leaving out his bad part. The things they learnt that time, eventually, would help them to become legendary actors. They learnt from his mistakes, from his bad manners. Always young kids say, so and so, is their role model. I tell them, when you choose a person to be your role model, first of all, you should be smart enough to learn from their mistakes, strong enough to scale their heights. Sourav might have done some bad things, he might have got what he deserved, but that doesn't take away the fact that Harbhajan,Yuvraj,Irfan,Virender etc. learnt a few things from him. They learnt what would happen to you if you take sides against your family. Virender now learnt after his bad patch, what it feels like to take sides, he must be regretting for what he said after the Bangalore test match. Sport is a great leveller. But what I want to say is, we as fan base, must always recognize our player's achievements, urge the future captains not to do same mistakes, but we cannot ridicule them. Behind every glory, there is a sacrifice. We must respect those sacrifices. We must pay our respects. A young cricketer can choose Sachin/Sourav/Mahender as a role model, but they got to know the sacrifices, they got to know the mistakes they did, they got to learn from them. It hurts me when people say a particular player's innings came against minnows, came against weak opposition etc.
Lets enjoy the moments they gave us. Lets learn from their mistakes.
Sorry for being a Grumpy!!  :) :)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: poondu on May 02, 2006, 07:18:29 PM
I have been trying to say this to somebody for a long time, but couldn't. If you allow me to use this DG to let my heart out, Thank you.
Continuing from my above post, I would like to add this too:

If you, for a sec, imagine Indian Cricket as Hollywood, then Sourav Ganguly is the Marlon Brando. You know, when Marlon died, Jack Nicholson in his condolence speech said this : He gave freedom to us,actors. Its true, he gave freedom to act, freedom to express themselves, freedom to do something extraordinary. I always remember Sourav as the one who gave freedom to the future Indian captains. He gave them freedom to get what they want, freedom to fight with the selectors, freedom to allow the fringe players to prove themselves. Indian captains will do well if they remember that. We know how Sachin publicly expressed his anguish over not getting what he wanted, from the selectors. Oh well, Sourav did mistakes, who didn't? I was deeply hurt as a fan of Marlon when I learnt that he and Rod Steiger(Charlie) were not actually present during the famous cab scene in "On the Waterfront". Marlon used to leave the sets as soon as he finished his part and Rod used to act as if Marlon were present. Reems and reems of paper were used to describe the onscreen chemistry between those two gentlemen, for what? But that doesn't take away the glorious acting, powerful dialogues from that scene. John and Sourav might have had some differences, but together, they taught the players how it feels like, if you put the national flag on your heart, they taught what it feels like to achieve overseas success. You know whats the best part of The Godfather is, its not the movie, its the making of that movie. Al Pacino, Robert de Niro, Robert Duvall, all young and energetic actors, waiting for a break, they got Marlon. Paramount studio vehemently opposed his selection, he argued it could ruin the careers of those young actors, he argued, Marlon's non-punctuality, rudeness, disrespect to fellow actors might rub onto them. But Francis fought for it. The young actors learnt all the good things from Marlon,leaving out his bad part. The things they learnt that time, eventually, would help them to become legendary actors. They learnt from his mistakes, from his bad manners. Always young kids say, so and so, is their role model. I tell them, when you choose a person to be your role model, first of all, you should be smart enough to learn from their mistakes, strong enough to scale their heights. Sourav might have done some bad things, he might have got what he deserved, but that doesn't take away the fact that Harbhajan,Yuvraj,Irfan,Virender etc. learnt a few things from him. They learnt what would happen to you if you take sides against your family. Virender now learnt after his bad patch, what it feels like to take sides, he must be regretting for what he said after the Bangalore test match. Sports is a great leveller. But what I want to say is, we as fan base, must always recognize our player's achievements, urge the future captains not to do same mistakes, but we cannot ridicule them. Behind every glory, there is a sacrifice. We must respect those sacrifices. We must pay our respects. A young cricketer can choose Sachin/Sourav/Mahender as a role model, but they got to know the sacrifices, they got to know the mistakes they did, they got to learn from them. It hurts me when people say a particular player's innings came against minnows, came against weak opposition etc.
Lets enjoy the moments they gave us. Lets learn from their mistakes.
Sorry for being a Grumpy!!  :) :)

Very well said 22. Applause
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: toney on May 02, 2006, 07:25:32 PM
22 yards,
If you are going to write such posts when being Grumpy, please continue to do so. Quite nice reading it.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Cover Point on May 02, 2006, 07:26:52 PM
*Sigh*. 22yards you brought it up but my smite count is going to get closer to 1000 after this one :)

Never disagreed that Ganguly brought the "freedom" to the future Indian captains and was the first to free us up with his aggressiveness etc etc (search some old posts we have discussed Ganguly's great feats 1000's of time). But this God Father's time is over! Marlong Brando was God Father not for beating up the kids on the street but for taking on the world. Our Ganguly did that once. Now he has been living in past glory and not keeping up with the changes in the cricket world. So yes he can still beat up the kids (kenya) but that doesnt cut it anymore.

(as they said in Lord of the Rings) His time has come to pass. A new Dawn rises in the east and his name is Rahul Dravid. He works with *olf (Chappel) to take on Sauron (Ponting).

The analogy is already getting lame so ... will let it go.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: poondu on May 02, 2006, 07:30:01 PM
*Sigh*. 22yards you brought it up but my smite count is going to get closer to 1000 after this one :)

Never disagreed that Ganguly brought the "freedom" to the future Indian captains and was the first to free us up with his aggressiveness etc etc (search some old posts we have discussed Ganguly's great feats 1000's of time). But this God Father's time is over! Marlong Brando was God Father not for beating up the kids on the street but for taking on the world. Our Ganguly did that once. Now he has been living in past glory and not keeping up with the changes in the cricket world. So yes he can still beat up the kids (kenya) but that doesnt cut it anymore.

(as they said in Lord of the Rings) His time has come to pass. A new Dawn rises in the east and his name is Rahul Dravid. He works with *olf (Chappel) to take on Sauron (Ponting).

The analogy is already getting lame so ... will let it go.

CP,
Who is smeagol in ur analogy ?  ;D
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on May 02, 2006, 07:32:57 PM
Coverpoint,
I completely agree with you there. But all I want to say is, pay respect for what they did. Eat the white and leave the yellow. The GodFathers can never be left. Good Fellas are the ones who learn from them.
I apologize if I dare to hurt anyone on this DG here, but as a DG with enormous potential to grow, I want to see this DG as a platform where people have balanced view of things.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on May 02, 2006, 07:33:00 PM
*Sigh*. 22yards you brought it up but my smite count is going to get closer to 1000 after this one :)

Never disagreed that Ganguly brought the "freedom" to the future Indian captains and was the first to free us up with his aggressiveness etc etc (search some old posts we have discussed Ganguly's great feats 1000's of time). But this God Father's time is over! Marlong Brando was God Father not for beating up the kids on the street but for taking on the world. Our Ganguly did that once. Now he has been living in past glory and not keeping up with the changes in the cricket world. So yes he can still beat up the kids (kenya) but that doesnt cut it anymore.

(as they said in Lord of the Rings) His time has come to pass. A new Dawn rises in the east and his name is Rahul Dravid. He works with *olf (Chappel) to take on Sauron (Ponting).

The analogy is already getting lame so ... will let it go.

CP,
Who is smeagol in ur analogy ?  ;D

Smeagol leads the way to the future.
Hence it is KIRAN MORE. We shall only look forward.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: flute202020 on May 02, 2006, 07:35:17 PM
I have been trying to say this to somebody for a long time, but couldn't. If you allow me to use this DG to let my heart out, Thank you.
Continuing from my above post, I would like to add this too:

If you, for a sec, imagine Indian Cricket as Hollywood, then Sourav Ganguly is the Marlon Brando. You know, when Marlon died, Jack Nicholson in his condolence speech said this : He gave freedom to us,actors. Its true, he gave freedom to act, freedom to express themselves, freedom to do something extraordinary. I always remember Sourav as the one who gave freedom to the future Indian captains. He gave them freedom to get what they want, freedom to fight with the selectors, freedom to allow the fringe players to prove themselves. Indian captains will do well if they remember that. We know how Sachin publicly expressed his anguish over not getting what he wanted, from the selectors. Oh well, Sourav did mistakes, who didn't? I was deeply hurt as a fan of Marlon when I learnt that he and Rod Steiger(Charlie) were not actually present during the famous cab scene in "On the Waterfront". Marlon used to leave the sets as soon as he finished his part and Rod used to act as if Marlon were present. Reams and reams of paper were used to describe the onscreen chemistry between those two gentlemen, for what? But that doesn't take away the glorious acting, powerful dialogues from that scene. John and Sourav might have had some differences, but together, they taught the players how it feels like, if you put the national flag on your heart, they taught what it feels like to achieve overseas success. You know whats the best part of The Godfather is, its not the movie, its the making of that movie. Al Pacino, Robert de Niro, Robert Duvall, all young and energetic actors, waiting for a break, they got Marlon. Paramount studio head vehemently opposed his selection, he argued it could ruin the careers of those young actors, he argued, Marlon's non-punctuality, rudeness, disrespect to fellow actors might rub onto them. But Francis fought for it. The young actors learnt all the good things from Marlon,leaving out his bad part. The things they learnt that time, eventually, would help them to become legendary actors. They learnt from his mistakes, from his bad manners. Always young kids say, so and so, is their role model. I tell them, when you choose a person to be your role model, first of all, you should be smart enough to learn from their mistakes, strong enough to scale their heights. Sourav might have done some bad things, he might have got what he deserved, but that doesn't take away the fact that Harbhajan,Yuvraj,Irfan,Virender etc. learnt a few things from him. They learnt what would happen to you if you take sides against your family. Virender now learnt after his bad patch, what it feels like to take sides, he must be regretting for what he said after the Bangalore test match. Sport is a great leveller. But what I want to say is, we as fan base, must always recognize our player's achievements, urge the future captains not to do same mistakes, but we cannot ridicule them. Behind every glory, there is a sacrifice. We must respect those sacrifices. We must pay our respects. A young cricketer can choose Sachin/Sourav/Mahender as a role model, but they got to know the sacrifices, they got to know the mistakes they did, they got to learn from them. It hurts me when people say a particular player's innings came against minnows, came against weak opposition etc.
Lets enjoy the moments they gave us. Lets learn from their mistakes.
Sorry for being a Grumpy!!  :) :)
22, what did VS say after the banglore test?
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on May 02, 2006, 07:37:46 PM
Flute,
Virender alone was the run-getter during the second innings there. He said something similar to this during the post match conference: "What can I do if other batsmen don't chip in". Not exactly those words, but after I heard that, I knew its going to come and haunt him in the future. I hope he learnt from this bad phase.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: toney on May 02, 2006, 07:38:59 PM
If Veeru didnt learn from that, he would have learnt from his talk of getting a double 100 in ODIs last year. He had one of the poorest seasons after that.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Cover Point on May 02, 2006, 07:49:38 PM
22yards. No hurting here. And please my friend ... I would say If you dont hurt anyone's feelings on this DG then you are not being fair and balanced.

There are a lot of Ganguly Worshipers on this DG. There is a much smaller minority of posters (yours truly included) who actually try to bring the opposing POV. Generally u can tell the Ganguly Worshipers by there hugely lopsided Applause to Smite count. :)

Fineleg good Smeagle analogy.

By 22yards big mouth analosgy .. Sehwag has to be Gimly (or the dwarf)

So we have

Chappel = *olf
Dravid = Aragon New King .
Sauran = Ponting
Sarumaan = Dalmiya (evil Godfather)
Dhoni = Legolas ..Bow and Arrow guy (Long hair)
Sehwag = Gimly
Raj Singh Dungarpur = Bilbo Baggins ..... from the Part 3 when he is old and senile
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on May 02, 2006, 07:55:40 PM


Chappel = *olf
Dravid = Aragon New King .
Sauran = Ponting
Sarumaan = Dalmiya (evil Godfather)
Dhoni = Legolas ..Bow and Arrow guy (Long hair)
Sehwag = Gimly
Raj Singh Dungarpur = Bilbo Baggins ..... from the Part 3 when he is old and senile


LOL :)
Any more characters in Lord of Rings u guys can add? This is fun.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: poondu on May 02, 2006, 07:58:06 PM
Frodo - Sachin
Fat guy with Frodo - Kambli ???
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Cover Point on May 02, 2006, 08:02:00 PM
Frodo - Sachin
Fat guy with Frodo - Kambli ???

Funny .. except I dont see Kambli carrying Sachin for the final steps.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: poondu on May 02, 2006, 08:02:59 PM
Frodo - Sachin
Fat guy with Frodo - Kambli ???

Funny .. except I dont see Kambli carrying Sachin for the final steps.

No, i was looking at it from a gay angle.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: toney on May 02, 2006, 08:09:27 PM
Frodo - Sachin
Fat guy with Frodo - Kambli ???

Funny .. except I dont see Kambli carrying Sachin for the final steps.

No, i was looking at it from a gay angle.
That would be from behind?
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Cover Point on May 02, 2006, 08:11:43 PM
Frodo - Sachin
Fat guy with Frodo - Kambli ???

Funny .. except I dont see Kambli carrying Sachin for the final steps.

No, i was looking at it from a gay angle.
That would be from behind?

That made me laugh. Hilarious!
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: poondu on May 02, 2006, 08:12:26 PM
Frodo - Sachin
Fat guy with Frodo - Kambli ???

Funny .. except I dont see Kambli carrying Sachin for the final steps.

No, i was looking at it from a gay angle.
That would be from behind?

Do gays do it from behind ??
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: toney on May 02, 2006, 08:17:24 PM
Poondu, I would think so. Who do we ask though? We need an expert opinion. But dont stretch (no pun intended) it; Dex will move this to Etc section.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: poondu on May 02, 2006, 08:29:52 PM
Poondu, I would think so. Who do we ask though? We need an expert opinion. But dont stretch (no pun intended) it; Dex will move this to Etc section.

 :D  :D
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on May 02, 2006, 08:41:20 PM
Is Etc. like the dark-cell  ;D You shall be banned to Etc!
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: pieterSAN on May 02, 2006, 08:46:39 PM
Are guys coming down any time soon? Must be some good sh*t there....
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Cover Point on May 02, 2006, 09:22:40 PM
Are guys coming down any time soon? Must be some good sh*t there....

You mention Kambli and inevitably some Good * follows :)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: Sahir on May 02, 2006, 10:08:51 PM
Frodo - Sachin
Fat guy with Frodo - Kambli ???

Funny .. except I dont see Kambli carrying Sachin for the final steps.

No, i was looking at it from a gay angle.
That would be from behind?

Do gays do it from behind ??

Well...sometimes heteros do it from behind too... :o :P :P

Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: dhruvdeepak on May 03, 2006, 01:02:39 AM
Sehwag did NOT say that he was the only one scoring - after the Bangalore Test. What he said was that he knew the only way India had a chance of WINNING (chasing 400 odd) was for him to be in and keeping the scoring rate up.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: 22 Yards on May 03, 2006, 01:40:02 AM
Deepak,
Excuse me if my memory failed me(may be wrong location), but I remember that post match conference only for that sentence, at that time, made me think, why didnt he opt for another answer, like, bowlers bowled well or something like that. Any player for that matter, never should imply an "I" behavior.
But you might be right.
Anyway, some how this one was hijacked by Lord of the Ring :) :) Hope some of you have got my point: Minnows or no minnows, we shouldn't disrespect Sourav's century there.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: gouravk on May 03, 2006, 02:23:06 AM
Hehe ... sometimes I enjoy Sehwag's attitude.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: keep-it-cool on May 03, 2006, 04:19:27 AM
22yards. No hurting here. And please my friend ... I would say If you dont hurt anyone's feelings on this DG then you are not being fair and balanced.

There are a lot of Ganguly Worshipers on this DG. There is a much smaller minority of posters (yours truly included) who actually try to bring the opposing POV. Generally u can tell the Ganguly Worshipers by there hugely lopsided Applause to Smite count. :)

Fineleg good Smeagle analogy.

By 22yards big mouth analosgy .. Sehwag has to be Gimly (or the dwarf)

So we have

Chappel = *olf
Dravid = Aragon New King .
Sauran = Ponting
Sarumaan = Dalmiya (evil Godfather)
Dhoni = Legolas ..Bow and Arrow guy (Long hair)
Sehwag = Gimly
Raj Singh Dungarpur = Bilbo Baggins ..... from the Part 3 when he is old and senile


Or maybe SG can be smeagol .. he has lost his "precious" and wants it all back ...
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: keep-it-cool on May 03, 2006, 04:22:18 AM

Here is indignant meaning from Merriam Webster dictionary. I gave you a really long rope and you keep attacking me. Time will not and did not freeze with VVS or Gundappa, things changed a lot in cricket and to win ODIs, artistry and lazy drives is not going to help. Get this into your head and you might get out of your irritable mood. BTW, before attacking people, check the meaning of words and you will know who is being an idiot.

Main Entry: in∑dig∑na∑tion
Pronunciation: "in-dig-'nA-sh&n
Function: noun
: anger aroused by something unjust, unworthy, or mean
synonym see ANGER

This is my last attempt at making you get into sensible debate. Any more personal attacks and you will get a fitting reply from me.

I wish things were as good, as you say!
Winning the WC too may happen, but I still can't help feeling that this is only an Indian -B team, playing other B-teams, with the exception of England.
That was there C-team!
I just cannot accept Uthappa, Rao, Dhawan, etc in place of SG/SRT and VVS too. They don't belong to the same class despite their recent good performances. Besides, RD was never a good ODI player and is still just abt acceptable.
The above is just my personal sentiments.
When you learn to respect other people's feelings, others will start respecting yours.
Its a 2-way deal!

In which case probably the Indian team before this bunch came together was the India-C team?? (in terms of ODI results at least)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on June 03, 2006, 05:45:15 AM
Bump.

There were quite a few WC-07 predictions in this thread by 22-yards.
Was just revisiting some.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: justforkix on June 03, 2006, 06:04:12 AM
I still remember many folks saying that Symonds, Clarke and Hussey can be equated to Yuvi, Dhoni and Raina  :) :)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on June 03, 2006, 06:08:13 AM
I still remember many folks saying that Symonds, Clarke and Hussey can be equated to Yuvi, Dhoni and Raina  :) :)

Yes, and I still maintain NO WAY in the world, Y, D, R are equal to S, C, H by WC-07 time.
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: justforkix on January 26, 2007, 01:55:22 PM
Perhaps a good time to revisit  :D :D :D

Raina = Puppy  ;)
Title: Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
Post by: fineleg on February 07, 2007, 05:16:30 AM
Perhaps a good time to revisit  :D :D :D

Raina = Puppy  ;)

Raina != Pup like we both have said many times over in above thread, but Raina is a puppy ;D ;D ;D

As said above -
Yes, and I still maintain NO WAY in the world, Y, D, R are equal to S, C, H by WC-07 time.