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caught and bowled

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #160 on: December 13, 2006, 10:49:47 AM »

I share your views Toney. Well written response

me too toney- I agree with your views

oops now we'll be accused to be part of the clique

As experienced soilders of the clique (unfortunately I never rose above that rank :-[) it will be prudent to warn C&B the newest member of the "clique" ;D

I thought the "third front" was being formed.....anyway I plan to retire for various reasons
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justforkix

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #161 on: December 13, 2006, 11:52:14 AM »

I thought the "third front" was being formed.....anyway I plan to retire for various reasons

why ?!? accepting moral responsibility for mumbai's expected relegation to plate division  :P :P
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caught and bowled

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #162 on: December 13, 2006, 12:38:33 PM »

I thought the "third front" was being formed.....anyway I plan to retire for various reasons

why ?!? accepting moral responsibility for mumbai's expected relegation to plate division  :P :P
The reasons are various but Mumbai's relegation to the plate division would not be one of them - simply because thats never going to happen. Full strength Mumbai can still blow away anyone in India. Its just that they would never be full strength (Tendulkar, Agarkar, Zahir, Powar are more away than in...)
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sudzz

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #163 on: December 13, 2006, 01:55:32 PM »

I share your views Toney. Well written response

me too toney- I agree with your views

oops now we'll be accused to be part of the clique

As experienced soilders of the clique (unfortunately I never rose above that rank :-[) it will be prudent to warn C&B the newest member of the "clique" ;D

I thought the "third front" was being formed.....anyway I plan to retire for various reasons
CnB Bhau Mumbaikar's motto is "moden pan waknar nahi"...tar tumhi retire kashala hotaay..navin guard ghya and parat batting suru kara...

For those that dont know Marathi-Mumbaikar's motto is I will break but wont bend..so why are you retiring, take a new guard and start batting.
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caught and bowled

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #164 on: December 13, 2006, 02:25:55 PM »

I share your views Toney. Well written response

me too toney- I agree with your views

oops now we'll be accused to be part of the clique

As experienced soilders of the clique (unfortunately I never rose above that rank :-[) it will be prudent to warn C&B the newest member of the "clique" ;D

I thought the "third front" was being formed.....anyway I plan to retire for various reasons
CnB Bhau Mumbaikar's motto is "moden pan waknar nahi"...tar tumhi retire kashala hotaay..navin guard ghya and parat batting suru kara...

For those that dont know Marathi-Mumbaikar's motto is I will break but wont bend..so why are you retiring, take a new guard and start batting.

Sudzzbhau, reply in your PM
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 02:41:20 PM by caught and bowled »
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flute202020

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #165 on: December 13, 2006, 03:00:12 PM »

FL:

Maybe you are missing the point that just as you think that this particular player (whoever he is) is hurting the team because he is no good anymore (according to you), there are others that feel that the team is better off with this player in the team because he is not done yet.

Isnt looking at his issue  only from your perspective reflective of self referent bias -- as in only you hold the team's interest above the player and the others with an opposite POV do not ?

Stop to consider the fact that they may also put the team first, but believe that the team would be better off with this hypothetical hero in the team than out.

Kban,
That is a reasonable stmt - i have to agree.

However, the issue then becomes what if the selector(s) or coach happens to have the belief or POV that some of us fans (myself included) also happen to have...then they proceed to execute on their beliefs. Right or wrong, they are not intending "harm" or "malice" to any one person based on their country, caste/creed, state, or "status"...they are executing based on their beliefs out of good faith.

(The execution may have involved hard decisions and some debateable push/shove/email activities - but they thought they have to go all out to achieve their belief)

In this case, if fans start going up in arms and rioting, well, not sure how any exec team can achieve decisions or try out what they believe in?

Fineleg...just equate this with the recent demonstration by Doctors against reservations or the uprising during the tabling of the Mandal Commision report...What were the demonstrations for ?

While it was a fact that it was the anguish of the individual impact that played a role, it was also the common goal of ensuring that the future did not have an adverse impact. Here too, the executive thought they did the correct thing...a parliamentary tabling of report, calling for making it a law, whatever.

People who thought it was good , kept quiet.Those who thought otherwise called it political games and fought it.

Similar is the case here. Just that it happened to an individual...but the truth is the fight is against the system...the individual is only a trigger.
ravi, I did be very happy if what you say is true, but alas you are very far from facts. It is really streching to imagine that all those effigy burning idiots where protesting for a systematic change in cricket set up. If indeed they did, they did a very poor job of presenting their case and in fact they hurt Indian cricket in the process.

in fact, if they were so concerned about indian cricket primarily, they would have protested about the green top in culcutta too. Some of them would not have booed the team in eden garden and also some of them on this DG would not have invented reasons to brush aside the treacherous politics in creating a green top in culcutta.
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flute202020

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #166 on: December 13, 2006, 03:36:35 PM »

flute:

Quote
kban1, we can agree to disagree all we want, but for you to go around and say I debunked that point and he is still retaining his misperception is not the right thing, especially when we agree to disagree.

Now coming to my alleged agreement with you about SG's form, the point in question at that time was SG's continued 2 yrs bad form. At that time, your analysis showed that SG's form was not abysmal for 2 yrs in tests. I agreed with you in so far as 2 yrs thing is concerned. But, SG definitely was in poor form in ODIs for sometime and also showed extremely bad form in Pakistan series. When we definitely say with reasonable surety that SG was in bad form when he was dropped.

Now, again, if you want to agree to disagree, fine, but please don't say we are maintaining our stand inspite of you debunking it. you are very far from debunking this point or the 2nd point.

So what are you saying different than I did ? I said his form was good in tests over a 2 year period but for the Pak series (the only other series in which he performed poorly was against Aus at home, and even there he performed at par than some other luminaries).

I have never denied his performances in ODi’s at that time were not on par. I have always said that if he needed to be dropped from captaincy or from the team, it should have been after the Pak series at home, not after Zim, when he was trying and succeeding somewhat in getting back into rythym (as the County season before and the domestic season right after showed).

And what was my original argument with Fineleg ? That he kept insisting that SG was in terrible form for 2 years.

If what you have said above is the same thing I wrote on this thread and several others, then what is the argument here – none.

So the statistical analysis debunked fineleg’s point  -- notice I said partially in my post, as in relating to tests. So I stand by my comment – you agree, I agree, end of debate really on this point.

Kban, atleast on this thread I did not see any arguments from fineleg about 2 yrs slump. He simply said poor form and that I agree with, ODIs largely and tests to some extent considering the horrible performance against Pak. Taking into consideration the original comment from fineleg on this thread, I don't think any of your arguments debunked his assertion.

Quote
Not sure who talked about feelings here unless you are using your "right to choose interpretation mode"    :D

If I am not wrong, I remember even you agreeing that VVS issue is the only thing not debunked or something which doesn't hav enough evidence. Please reread my post and in fact I mentioned that possibly he lied to VVS. I am not going to believe it either way, but I am leaning more towards believing it because of the way events played out, as in BCCI attributing it to miscommunication without castigating GC, this issue not becoming a major defense point in SG's favour etc.

Nah, no interpretation – when a person says he possibly lied and uses that within a list of arguments to support fineleg’s contention about SG, then it indicates which way you the person is leaning –that’s the impression the reader gets. If your viewpoint is and was undecided, then perhaps a better phrasing of the sentence would have been appropriate to convey that thought to the reader.[/quote]
nothing wrong in my choice of words. possible because the evidence is not conclusive. Also, as I mentioned in other posts, I am leaning more towards believing considering the way events played out. I am not considering what BCCI said or did. I am leaning more towards believing because JD was in charge at that time, it is a very serious and unprofessional thing to say if GC in fact cooked up the whole thing and I very strongly doubt if the review committe would have let it go so easily considering JD was in power at that time. Just bringing our the lie from GC about VVS issue would have turned the tide against GC and created lot of sympathy for SG. The fact that nothing of that sort happened makes me lean more towards believing it. But, yes there is no definitive proof and we will never know. but I have a right to make a informed choice depending on the events as they played out. BCCI, GC, SG, former players etc. never will come out and say things as they are, we have to read between lines and make a call.

Quote
Look at it this way. You accuse me of something. Assume CP is the adjudicator. CP looks at the whole case and thinks to himself – this is a kindergarten fight, these guys are not acting like adults or he thinks both of these guys are integral parts of my set up, I do not want a slanging match to evolve out of this. CP calls both of us and says, guys, you are grown ups, behave like that, try to be professional –end of story.

Now an observer like say Dhruv can question CP’s judgment in not dealing with the accusation, but how in the heck that equates to your allegation being proven to be true and me being held guilty is beyond me.

I have never used the lack of judgment in this issue to claim SG is innocent, but I have always said that he has not been proven guilty when responding to arguments similar to what you have presented. There is a difference, and a big difference at that. Hope you recognize that.

kban, it is not about what BCCI did or did not do, as I mentioned above, it is the sum total of events, comments,silence etc. which makes me lean more towards guilty. Our opinion counts for nothing in making actual decision, but selectors,coach and administrators seem to lean towards believing it too, hence the continued dropping of SG after that episode.

Quote
Quote
Since you did not offer any points against my other things I mentioned regarding point 2, I don't feel the need to go any further into it.

Here are your other points –

"SG was in extremely poor form and was also disruptive force by his attitude to fitness, refusal to work on his short comings, creating a storm by bringing up dressing room spat, possibly lying to VVS about GC's intentions of dropping him from tests"

Form –discussed before.

Disruptive force by attitude to fitness – not a given unless you take every bit of gossip into account.  He has never been the most athletic, anyways, and he has been an average ground fielder at best, so I do not see how you can arrive at so definitive a conclusion  -- its not as if he was Jonty before, lol. 

Refusal to work on his shortcomings – you make it sound like it was the conscious act of a petulant school boy !! Yes, he neglected his batting, which he should not have but your turn of phrase is a stretch too far.
nope, totally disagree with you. At the end of Pak series, SG seemed to have had many issues
1. fitness: he was never good at fielding and running between wickets. it became a serious problem with his slump in form. What I liked about the whole episode was that most of the cricket fans were kinda, oh he was always like this, never cared about fitness or fielding or taking singles etc., GC was the first person who made it an issue and kudos to him for that.
2.shortcomings: at that time, SG was increasingly becoming dependent on JD for support and the impression I got from that whole thing was, SG was taking his position in the team for granted and also blocking better prospects like kaif & Yuvraj from entering test team.
3. pampering & persistence with non-performers: ZK,PP etc. have had such a long run without performance, raina's case pales in comparison. ZK's attitude to fitness and SG's support for ZK is not secret. even team physio famously said ZK is mentally lazy.
4. Abuse of coach: if SMG has to be believed, JW was abused during the Pak series and one of the reasons obviously is the fact that JW is powerless and SG is the only was who can pull strings based on his association with JD. This definitely is disruptive.

The list is long. Anyway, I think when SG was dropped and removed from captaincy, it was long overdue. The sad fact is, I would have preferred JD to continue to head BCCI in the interest of keeping out politicians. alas, unprofessional close prozimity of captain and BCCI head (or defacto head) lead to this sorry state of affairs of a guy, who helped in backstabbing the team in pune is now the head, using that green top to some extent in getting back at SG & JD.

Quote
And even after answering your points for the umpteenth time, it still does not get to the core of the issue. Because the points you raise have nothing to do with Fineleg’s accusations – his accusation of SG playing politics is one he goes spreading from thread to thread with never a shred of proof and continues doing so after his assertions get debunked on numerous threads.

So again, I stand by my comment addressed to fineleg. If you feel more than obliged to take umbrage at my claims against your brethren by metaphor, there is not much I can do about it.

kban, not sure if you are using previous history to judge fineleg, I am taking his comments on this thread at face value and for the reasons stated above, I agree with his comments. May be we can refrain from "your brethren " type of characterization, for you too can be my "bro" by agreeing with me  :)
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justforkix

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #167 on: December 13, 2006, 04:08:13 PM »

Kban, atleast on this thread I did not see any arguments from fineleg about 2 yrs slump. He simply said poor form and that I agree with, ODIs largely and tests to some extent considering the horrible performance against Pak. Taking into consideration the original comment from fineleg on this thread, I don't think any of your arguments debunked his assertion.

Because, in the past, fineleg has kept on bringing up SG's "2-yr form slump" for probably N times (N= infinity !!!), even though kban has taken the pains to prove that 2-yr form slump is myth every time !!!! After kban explains all this, fineleg conveniently disappears and 1-2 months later says again that SG was in a 2-yr form slump.
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kban1

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #168 on: December 13, 2006, 04:13:44 PM »

flute:

Thanks for your response.

While you are looking at this issue only in perspective of this thread, my comments to fineleg are based on the same issues discussed, explained, and debunked in detail with him on other threads.

Maybe thats why your and my frame of references vary in determining the issue.

I disagree with you about your explanation of the SG-VVS-GC-review board issue because essentially your argument boild down to I believe the accuser because the judge did not investigate the allegation. But we have been over it before, so its not worth going over it again. I accept your right to hold and maintain a different POV and while I respectfully disagree, I have no problems with your right to your opinion.

Agree with some of your points about SG but do not agree with ZK and PP being pampered more than Raina.

During the last one year of SG's captaincy, you could probably count in single digits the number of times Zak played because he was consistently injured starting from Brisbane 2004 and he would make brief comebacks only to relapse again -- so while not denying Zak's lack of optimum effort, I do not see the validity of this argument.

PP was carried long, but along with all his bad drops, he did save us a test or two, and contributed handily for us. On the same note, Zak had taken a 100+ test wickets. Belittling their contributions (not saying they did not have negatives) by comparing them to the marginal and continuously dropping returns on the prolonged "stay the course" investment in raina is probably more grounded in perception than facts.

The point here though is that you mention all of these things about SG's captaincy and these are your thoughts. Nowehere were these part of fineleg's original points (prior discussions) or even his points on this thread. So your supposed defence of fineleg's point goes to naught because fineleg's consistent allegation has been SG was up to politicking in the team.

Please do not be offended by the use of the term brethren --I used the term "brethren by metaphor" to indicate people with similar viewpoints wrt the issue we are discussing. Hope this clarifies. And yes, I dont have  a problem being your bro either --let me know where you are, and next time I am in the area, we can have  afew drinks  ;D

Anyways, applause for a healthy argument (thats your double)
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flute202020

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #169 on: December 13, 2006, 05:07:11 PM »

kban, thanks for the response. applause. I guess our differences are narrower now.  We differ about ZK & PP. PP never single handedly saved a test for us, yes contributed with bat in some instances, but we know quite a few instances when he cost us the match by his butter fingers, count Aus series in Aus, Aus series in India, pak series etc. In a few instances, PP's repeated dropping of ponting during his initial circumspect phase helped him in going on to make a lot of runs, double hundred in one instance. ZK indeed contibuted very well during WC, but after WC, his was story of getting pampered and unprofessional attitude to fitness, in addition to ignoring the coach because he has the backing of the captain. Again, we don't have evidence of it about ZK, but based on multiple reports, columns etc., I believe the above is true. We are never going to get a black & white proof in these matters.

anyway, I was not offended by the brethren usage, just afraid that any such lumping of people together might further broaden the divisions on this DG, thats all.
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ruchir

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #170 on: December 13, 2006, 07:15:01 PM »


My assertion stands about PP’s references to people waiting for the Indian team to fail so that Sg can get back in the team – which is about as clear a way of accusing someone of being unpatriotic without spelling out the words.
.......
With that having been said, now can I get an apology ?

My apologies.... once, twice, thirce....

On writing an argument, first there is god, then there is Pitamah KBAN...  [god]

My reply is late because I had to go into temporary therapy again, after seeing you dig out a 6-month old post from PP.  ;D ;D  And before I forget, an applause to you. Also, I was not trying to be impolite, I was trying to incite you (which you successfuly resisted).

In the end, I still disagree that it is okay for LPS to keep on harping about alleged injustice done to SG but not okay for PP to point out bad fan behavior whenever it happens. PP does not take digs like the one mentioned by you, in every post he makes on fans. Is that was so, I'm sure you would have found more posts. So, I don't think it is wrong to equate LPS harping with PP's pointing. Unlike VVS, AK fans; SG have behaved badly. I'm sure you will accept that. So pointing that out at every instance it happens is actually more reasonable than LPS harping injustice.



Before you accuse me of harboring double standards, may be you ought to consider that in my opinion, LPS’s posts were hardly rhetorical, simply because too many people didn’t believe SG was being wronged –that is until the process came off the rails. So it was not a self evident truth to all.

If you think LPS was not rhetoric because he was poinitng out the (alleged) obvious then PP should not be criticised at all because he too was potinting out the obvious; things that were already reported in the media. So, it IS double standard to criticise PP of pointing of the obvious bad behavior of SG fans. Remeber, all the criticism of PP is not because he called fans unpatriotic. He is also criticised for simply pointing out bad fan behavior every time it happens because that behavior is justifed as support to player.



As in,
for someone who accuses others of being star centric fans, he has either been conspicuously absent in his criticism of people who he likes or his voice has been unusually muted.

Wrong. Read his match reports since RD became captain. He has regularly criticised him on bad captaincy and praised him on good, just like he did for SG.



I believe you that it was his idea. But what I find hard is a stat piece (published after the team is doing horribly and public is clamoring against the team and coach) being proferred as evidence  to show his criticism of his favorites.
.....
Notice, I am not saying that he would prevent the piece from running, I am responding to your argument that if he let it run, it must equate to him criticizing his favorites and therefore prove that he is the model unbiased and objective person who cares about team and not favorites.

It's your choice to not believe that PP was instrumental in the compilation of that statistical piece even though it was his idea. You can take it as just a bunch of numbers. I believe his intention was to do a comparison of RD/SG and GC/JW because a lot of noise was being made in media on this issue. I believe that he wanted to do an unbiased piece, where if it turned out that RD was shown to be not as good as SG, then so be it. I believe he wanted to do this piece because it had not been done in any other forum till that time. And my belief is there because when this idea germinated in his mind and he said so on the blog, I had an exchange with him via email, where I asked him why was he waiting to bo back to India and what was the purpose. He told me that in India, he would get better personnel to design the page and people free enough to do the job. The purpose, per him, was to bring out the real picture on both captains and coaches performances, because the topic was hot and everyone was commenting without any statistical piece to back the arguments. Now, you may choose to not believe me (since I am naive).
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kban1

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #171 on: December 13, 2006, 08:20:36 PM »

ruchir:

Quote
Read his match reports since RD became captain. He has regularly criticised him on bad captaincy and praised him on good, just like he did for SG.

Did not deny this because I have noticed those comments. However, hardly similar to the criticism heaped on SG (not just on captaincy). The bigger point is the total silence over BCCI wrongs and Coaching failures.

Quote
In the end, I still disagree that it is okay for LPS to keep on harping about alleged injustice done to SG but not okay for PP to point out bad fan behavior whenever it happens. PP does not take digs like the one mentioned by you, in every post he makes on fans. Is that was so, I'm sure you would have found more posts. So, I don't think it is wrong to equate LPS harping with PP's pointing. Unlike VVS, AK fans; SG have behaved badly. I'm sure you will accept that. So pointing that out at every instance it happens is actually more reasonable than LPS harping injustice.

If you think LPS was not rhetoric because he was poinitng out the (alleged) obvious then PP should not be criticised at all because he too was potinting out the obvious; things that were already reported in the media. So, it IS double standard to criticise PP of pointing of the obvious bad behavior of SG fans. Remeber, all the criticism of PP is not because he called fans unpatriotic. He is also criticised for simply pointing out bad fan behavior every time it happens because that behavior is justifed as support to player.

I can only speak for myself and my reasoning for being critical of PP. To me the rhetorical part was not much of an issue at all. The reason the rhetorical part came up was follows --

1) I was responding to a post by DD where he said what PP said was true, lets discuss the issues, and my response was yes, its true but what issues --this is a self evident truth.
2) My POV that some (not all) of his fan related comments, including this one was a dig at fans of a particular bent.

So while you are viewing the rhetorical issue in isolation, to me the rhetorical nature of the question was irrelevant to the main issue under question -- to me, the rhetoric was a garb to take a dig  at fans, and hence my protest.

Which is exactly why (in my mind), irrespective of our disagreement wrt the comparability of rhetorical content of PP & LPS' posts, the rhetorical point of debate is really moot.

The rhetorical point was made as a response to DD and only because IMO, it was a prelude to PP's main gripe --certain fans.

Having said that, while I do not identify with effigy burning or other such acts by some SG fans, ask yourself why their reactions might be different than the reactions of the so called "good fans" of AK & VVS -- neither of these guys were humiliated, axed, and kept out based on the personal grudge of the coach. So if you have to judge the reaction, one should judge the event as well -- unfortunately again PP has not been at the forefront of that.

And thats the whole issue here -- see people who agree with the original events find a lot to be outraged about the reaction from the fans because they reason it is beyond logic and rationale --their argument being framed by the framework in which they assented to the original decision / event.

No wonder then that PP finds so much to take umbrage at rasta rokos and effigy burnings time and again. Reading him, you would think he had spent his entire living years in a different country and not in India, because anyone who has lived in India is quite familiar with rasta rokos, bandhs, and effigy burnings as a mode of protest - political and non political.

Most of us have not taken part in it, most have been inconvenienced by it, but legally and constitutionally, it is  a justifiable form of civil disobedience or dissent. If PP never found it necessary to protest each and every such occurence throughout his lifetime in India, I fail to see why it ticks him off so much to see this saga being done for the last few months.

Again, it comes back to who is the judge and whether the judge is using a judgmental framework already influenced and prejudiced by his assent for the original decisions that these protesters are protesting.
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flute202020

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #172 on: December 13, 2006, 08:42:49 PM »

kban1, what is "legally and constitutionally, it is  a justifiable form of civil disobedience "? do you know court fined Shiv Sena & or BJP for calling a bandh in Maharastra ? rasta roko is even worse.


kban1 , a few questions

1. Assuming that SG has indeed been wronged, do you think it is acceptable to protest it by resorting to rasta rokos & bandhs?

2. What is so wrong in getting annoyed by these bnadhs & rasta rokos? the fact that we saw a few since our childhood need not make them any more acceptable. There is a huge huge difference in employing these methods for very critical issues like reservations or other such nationally important issue. Even if it is a very critical issue, I still won't support any such methods unless it is resorted to as last measure when every other less disruptive method fails. To employ it to protest against a individual's exclusion from the team is simply not acceptable and creates undue pressure on the team management and in fact hurts the team. We cannot select our national team thru media and protests.

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atticus

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #173 on: December 13, 2006, 08:58:56 PM »

kban1, what is "legally and constitutionally, it is  a justifiable form of civil disobedience "? do you know court fined Shiv Sena & or BJP for calling a bandh in Maharastra ? rasta roko is even worse.


kban1 , a few questions

1. Assuming that SG has indeed been wronged, do you think it is acceptable to protest it by resorting to rasta rokos & bandhs?

2. What is so wrong in getting annoyed by these bnadhs & rasta rokos? the fact that we saw a few since our childhood need not make them any more acceptable. There is a huge huge difference in employing these methods for very critical issues like reservations or other such nationally important issue. Even if it is a very critical issue, I still won't support any such methods unless it is resorted to as last measure when every other less disruptive method fails. To employ it to protest against a individual's exclusion from the team is simply not acceptable and creates undue pressure on the team management and in fact hurts the team. We cannot select our national team thru media and protests.


Good points flute. I was just going to type up something similar. Saved me a lot of time. I still cannot imagine why anyone would protest like this for dropping a player from a sports team. Even given that cricket is GOD in India, this is just a silly reason to disrupt normal life. On top of that, at the end of the day the protestors who indulge in rasta rokos are normally arrested and released on bail (not sure if that happened in this case). That shows that the rasta rokos are neither legal nor constituional. Effigy burning may be legal.

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toney

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #174 on: December 13, 2006, 09:05:29 PM »

atticus,
you got it wrong. Cricket is religion, not God in India. Unfortunately, there are too many Gods for this religion.

As for raasta rokos etc: why should the common man who isnt bothered about this issue be affected by such demonstrations? Is it right that, if I as a person was inconvenienced because some guys had no job but to protest exclusion of a (any) player?
Is it right even in the case of more pressing issues:? I dont think so. Such measures as bandhs, hartals etc are worrying indications of mafia/parallel state-systems which harm the common man.
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kban1

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #175 on: December 13, 2006, 09:40:22 PM »

flute:

Quote
do you know court fined Shiv Sena & or BJP for calling a bandh in Maharastra ? rasta roko is even worse.

Do you not think different courts will interpret it differently based on the situation ?

Calling a bandh happens often, both by ruling parties and opposition parties  --to my knowledge, I have not seen that being declared unconstituional.

Simply because a call for  a bandh is asking people to lend support for any cause by doing whatever --not attending work, not doing business, in other words a form of boycott.

What does get illegal IMo, is when political parties sometimes try to forcibly enforce that because thats when it loses value as a form of voluntary boycott and becomes coerced.

But I do not see anything unconstitutional or illegal when people call for a bandh to protest.

Effigy burning is definitely not unconstitutional.

Rasta roko --I did not intend to include that when i made the statement. After rereading it, it appears thats the impression I conveyed, so hope this clarifies.


Answers to your questions (I believe I have answered them a few times before as well)

1. No, I do not personally like it, neither would I participate in it.

But I try not to mix up my personal feelings or proclivities with what is or isnt an acceptable mode of protest. Just because I would not do something does not mean I have the right to hold others to my preferences when I am not the arbiter of the acceptability of such standards anyways --that is determined by the courts and the constitution.

2. Nothing is stopping anyone from getting annoyed at these. I am frequently bothered by these and used to be when I was in India as well. All I suggest is the person protesting these instances also be just as vocal in protesting similar measures when the issue is different --and that was my point about PP.

It is your opinion whether you feel such protests about a particular player are justified or not. And I am sure people will agree with your contention that it puts pressure on selection and the BCCI and so on.

On the other hand, there will be others like me who will feel that the role of these people and their importance in influencing management thinking, BCCI policies is way overblown.

And while I agree with the broader concept that we place way too much importance to sports and sportsmen, I will personally be very wary of advancing that argument further to say that protests when it comes to a player is not correct -- because I do not wish to impose my personal opinion on others about their rights to expression.
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ruchir

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #176 on: December 13, 2006, 10:28:16 PM »

Did not deny this because I have noticed those comments. However, hardly similar to the criticism heaped on SG (not just on captaincy). The bigger point is the total silence over BCCI wrongs and Coaching failures.

I started looking for PP criticising BCCI on his blog. I started forward from May-01-2006. Here are the instances where he has critisized BCCI since then:
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1163494849 -- Read last few lines.
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1160449576
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1160397877
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1153505440
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1147366524
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1147179016
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1146794809
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1146843183
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1146843813
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1146843972
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1146846641

And as a acedemic study, from the same date, I tried to see how many times he has criticised protesting indian fans, and I found ONLY 3 instances:
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1151783811 -- fans booing IND for bad perf
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1148677473 -- you quoted
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1163998349 -- PP talks about fans protesting when player is dropped



1) I was responding to a post by DD where he said what PP said was true, lets discuss the issues, and my response was yes, its true but what issues --this is a self evident truth.

Well, the issue is the bad behavior of SG fans. It may be self evident, but people can still discuss it. If you think it is not worth discussing then how worthwhile is discussing politics against SG? If you feel that fan behavior should not be discussed beyond a point, then why discuss politics beyond a point?



Having said that, while I do not identify with effigy burning or other such acts by some SG fans, ask yourself why their reactions might be different than the reactions of the so called "good fans" of AK & VVS -- neither of these guys were humiliated, axed, and kept out based on the personal grudge of the coach. So if you have to judge the reaction, one should judge the event as well -- unfortunately again PP has not been at the forefront of that.

If you want to talk about humiliation and biases, then let us go to the starting point. Who took the first step? Was SG naive when he spoke to Bhogle? Was that not the first step in playing politics by putting GC under pressure by disclosing personal talk in media? When you take the first step, how can you cry over the following humiliation? If SG had absolutely, positively no intention of playing politics with GC, why did he confirm the question asked by Bhogle. Nothing would have happened if SG had not said Yes to Bhogle. On coming back BCCI would have sorted the issue between them and pushed it under the rug, as they always do. Once he himself kicked in the mud, how can you think that he will remain clean? So, if SG fans protest against him being dropped because of bias or against his humiliation, you have to question their wisdom of not seeing the starting point of this issue. Not you personally, but do the fans protesting in streets criticise SG for speaking to Bhogle on TV? If not, why not?

And personal grudge of coach? Do you think GC had a family fued with SG and that's why he hates him so much that he does not want him in the team? If you think that GC has any personal grudge against SG, do you ever stop and think why that grudge is there in the first place? SG is an Indian, GC is an Australian. They have hardly had contact prior to GC becoming the coach. SG supported GC as coach. GC had helped him in AUS tour. What reasons can you think, that are responsible for GC having a personal grudge against SG? I would like to know your POV on this. Everyone keeps harping that GC has a personal grudge. But no one actually specifies, what are the causes of that grudge? What prompted that grudge to appear?

So, if you want me or PP to think about the reasons because of which SG fans protest, then I would like to know the reason because of which you think GC has a personal grudge against SG. I can't think of one. It seems like SG fan protests and GC's personal grudge are somehow linked. So let us solve the personal grudge part of it.



Most of us have not taken part in it, most have been inconvenienced by it, but legally and constitutionally, it is  a justifiable form of civil disobedience or dissent. If PP never found it necessary to protest each and every such occurence throughout his lifetime in India, I fail to see why it ticks him off so much to see this saga being done for the last few months.

PP is a cricket writer. So, he will not write about a Bandh sponsored by BJP in Kashmir. That's not his area to cover. Some other Rediff journalist will cover it. But if a Bandh or protest is happening because of a cricket personality, PP can/will/should write about it. BTW, since May 2006, he has written about protesting fans only thrice.
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fineleg

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #177 on: December 13, 2006, 10:30:17 PM »


I started looking for PP criticising BCCI on his blog. I started forward from May-01-2006. Here are the instances where he has critisized BCCI since then:
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1163494849 -- Read last few lines.
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1160449576
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1160397877
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1153505440
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1147366524
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1147179016
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1146794809
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1146843183
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1146843813
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1146843972
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1146846641

And as a acedemic study, from the same date, I tried to see how many times he has criticised protesting indian fans, and I found ONLY 3 instances:
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1151783811 -- fans booing IND for bad perf
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1148677473 -- you quoted
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1163998349 -- PP talks about fans protesting when player is dropped



Ruchir,
If not for anything else, MULTIPLE applauses to you for the hard work expended in ur research above.
Can give u only one applause now, but consider it multiple.
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toney

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #178 on: December 13, 2006, 10:41:16 PM »


What does get illegal IMo, is when political parties sometimes try to forcibly enforce that because thats when it loses value as a form of voluntary boycott and becomes coerced.

Huh? ..sometimes try to forciblly...???
Have you ever tried driving a car during a bandh? At least, in Kerala, you would end up in the hospital and if lucky, not in the morgue.

Ruchir.
Applause from me too. A job very well done!!!
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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #179 on: December 13, 2006, 10:45:22 PM »

FINELEG, TONEY --

Thanks guys. But someone special smited me too.  ;)
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kban1

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #180 on: December 13, 2006, 11:11:23 PM »

toney:

Quote
Huh? ..sometimes try to forciblly... ???
Have you ever tried driving a car during a bandh? At least, in Kerala, you would end up in the hospital and if lucky, not in the morgue.

Not sure what you are objecting to. What you are saying is precisely what I meant.

That political bandhs in India cease to become a protest embodying willful boycott and become coercion by violence or threat thereof.

So we are in agreement as far as I can see.
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prfsr

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #181 on: December 13, 2006, 11:15:16 PM »


If you want to talk about humiliation and biases, then let us go to the starting point. Who took the first step? Was SG naive when he spoke to Bhogle? Was that not the first step in playing politics by putting GC under pressure by disclosing personal talk in media? When you take the first step, how can you cry over the following humiliation? If SG had absolutely, positively no intention of playing politics with GC, why did he confirm the question asked by Bhogle. Nothing would have happened if SG had not said Yes to Bhogle. On coming back BCCI would have sorted the issue between them and pushed it under the rug, as they always do. Once he himself kicked in the mud, how can you think that he will remain clean? So, if SG fans protest against him being dropped because of bias or against his humiliation, you have to question their wisdom of not seeing the starting point of this issue. Not you personally, but do the fans protesting in streets criticise SG for speaking to Bhogle on TV? If not, why not?

And personal grudge of coach? Do you think GC had a family fued with SG and that's why he hates him so much that he does not want him in the team? If you think that GC has any personal grudge against SG, do you ever stop and think why that grudge is there in the first place? SG is an Indian, GC is an Australian. They have hardly had contact prior to GC becoming the coach. SG supported GC as coach. GC had helped him in AUS tour. What reasons can you think, that are responsible for GC having a personal grudge against SG? I would like to know your POV on this. Everyone keeps harping that GC has a personal grudge. But no one actually specifies, what are the causes of that grudge? What prompted that grudge to appear?

So, if you want me or PP to think about the reasons because of which SG fans protest, then I would like to know the reason because of which you think GC has a personal grudge against SG. I can't think of one. It seems like SG fan protests and GC's personal grudge are somehow linked. So let us solve the personal grudge part of it.

I normally try to stay out of the rehashing the same things over and over but this is clearly not kosher.

Your arguments are:
1. SG started it, so nobody should complain at *anything* that follows, and
2. In order to claim that GC has a grudge against SG, we need to show motive?

Do you really believe this?

Regarding 1, a player makes a mistake in the heat of the moment and the coach and selectors ganging up on him is appropriate punishment?

Point 2 is so utterly ridiculous that I am left speechless. More is from Gujarat, SG is from Bengal, how can More have a grudge against SG? Heck, let's take it to the ridiculous extremes that it deserves -- how could any Pakistanis have a grudge against Indians -- they are from a different country!!

As for PP discussing topic A x times and topic B y times, what on earth does it prove? For example imagine that I posted the following on separate days:

GC was a great batsman

GC served Aus well

GC understands batting

GC is technically sound

GC and IC were the two best Aussie batsmen brothers ever

GC is evil

GS is the worst coach ever

I have clearly been more than fair to GC right? I praised him 5 times and criticized him only twice.

-P
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ruchir

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #182 on: December 13, 2006, 11:41:52 PM »

Regarding 1, a player makes a mistake in the heat of the moment and the coach and selectors ganging up on him is appropriate punishment?

This is an FYI, PRFSR. SG did not make a statement in the heat of the moment. It was a planned thing. SG asked for GC's opinion before the start of the test. SG never talked about it till he had scored a century. He waited till he had something to show as a stepping stone to answer the question.

BTW, many people have said that either GC, or one of his confidants leaked the stepping down incident to Bhogle. There is no proof but this has been accepted by many. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe it was SG who told Bhogle to specifically ask this question so that he could break the news to the world, gain sympathy and put pressure on GC for actually giving that opinion? Has that occured to you.

This is something to think about, among all the conspiracy theories floating about GC. Why do people think GC was responsible for leaking it to Bhogle? After all it was SG giving the interview. SG had scored a century. Why is it not possible that it was SG himself who asked Bhogle to specifically ask this question in the interview. And since it was a huge news to Bhogle himself, he asked it. GC had nothing to gain by leaking that incident to Bhogle. SG, on the other hand, had been the one under pressure and he was the one looking for some comfort, some sympathy from any quarter. What better way than to show yourself as the one who has been wronged.

Think about that.... Then think how would GC and selectors feel it what I just said was actually true (it might as well be).



Point 2 is so utterly ridiculous that I am left speechless. More is from Gujarat, SG is from Bengal, how can More have a grudge against SG? Heck, let's take it to the ridiculous extremes that it deserves -- how could any Pakistanis have a grudge against Indians -- they are from a different country!!

Don't deviate from the question. Don't dodge the question. Don't spin the question if you don't have an answer.

I asked a very simple question. What can be the possible reason for GC to hold a personal grudge against SG? It is a very very simple question, that begs a very simple answer, which I don't know. That's why I am asking this question. So, don't call it ridiculous. Maybe what is ridiculous is this allegation itself -- that GC holds a personal grudge against SG.



As for PP discussing topic A x times and topic B y times, what on earth does it prove? For example imagine that I posted the following on separate days:

GC was a great batsman

GC served Aus well

GC understands batting

GC is technically sound

GC and IC were the two best Aussie batsmen brothers ever

GC is evil

GS is the worst coach ever

I have clearly been more than fair to GC right? I praised him 5 times and criticized him only twice.

The issue being discussed was that KBAN alleged that PP was frequently criticising SG fans while saying nothing about BCCI since Pawar took over. I gave him a count that exact opposite was the reality. That's it. It is not to show that PP does not criticise fans or PP is SG's friend. It was to refute KBAN's statement that PP criticises fans more and BCCI less.
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prfsr

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #183 on: December 14, 2006, 01:01:46 AM »

Regarding 1, a player makes a mistake in the heat of the moment and the coach and selectors ganging up on him is appropriate punishment?

This is an FYI, PRFSR. SG did not make a statement in the heat of the moment. It was a planned thing. SG asked for GC's opinion before the start of the test. SG never talked about it till he had scored a century. He waited till he had something to show as a stepping stone to answer the question.

BTW, many people have said that either GC, or one of his confidants leaked the stepping down incident to Bhogle. There is no proof but this has been accepted by many. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe it was SG who told Bhogle to specifically ask this question so that he could break the news to the world, gain sympathy and put pressure on GC for actually giving that opinion? Has that occured to you.

This is something to think about, among all the conspiracy theories floating about GC. Why do people think GC was responsible for leaking it to Bhogle? After all it was SG giving the interview. SG had scored a century. Why is it not possible that it was SG himself who asked Bhogle to specifically ask this question in the interview. And since it was a huge news to Bhogle himself, he asked it. GC had nothing to gain by leaking that incident to Bhogle. SG, on the other hand, had been the one under pressure and he was the one looking for some comfort, some sympathy from any quarter. What better way than to show yourself as the one who has been wronged.

Think about that.... Then think how would GC and selectors feel it what I just said was actually true (it might as well be).

Ruchir,
The preplanned thing is *your* theory. I have no idea how many times HB asked SG before the century. I think it was wrong of SG to answer that question. I DO NOT KNOW HOW MANY TIMES I CAN SAY THIS. (caps for emphasis, not screaming at you!)

Could SG have asked HB? Possibly. Could GC have asked HB? Possibly. Could YOU have asked HB? possibly. I have never said I know that GC leaked that info. I do not know who said it. IIRC PP's hints pointed to AK. I have no interest in speculating.

I have no conspiracy theory that involves GC. GC seems like a in-your-face guy who loves to tell people of his dislikes. He has made so many unsubstantiated allegations against SG - ones that BCCI absolved him of - that there is no need for a conspiracy theory -- his feelings for SG are staring right at our faces.
Quote

Point 2 is so utterly ridiculous that I am left speechless. More is from Gujarat, SG is from Bengal, how can More have a grudge against SG? Heck, let's take it to the ridiculous extremes that it deserves -- how could any Pakistanis have a grudge against Indians -- they are from a different country!!

Don't deviate from the question. Don't dodge the question. Don't spin the question if you don't have an answer.

I asked a very simple question. What can be the possible reason for GC to hold a personal grudge against SG? It is a very very simple question, that begs a very simple answer, which I don't know. That's why I am asking this question. So, don't call it ridiculous. Maybe what is ridiculous is this allegation itself -- that GC holds a personal grudge against SG.



Ok, I will spell it out for you. I have NO IDEA what his motives are. People hate people for all sorts of reasons. One has to be psychic to know those. That does not make the hate untrue. BTW I have used the word hate because you used it. It is a strong word with few nuances, I would say something like intense professional dislike.

Now you tell me what motive a Pakistani can have for hating you. From you earlier posts I recall that you do believe that some Pakistanis do hate you just because you are Indian.

That GC held a grudge against SG is obvious to most reasonable people. Not to all. If you choose not to believe it, it's your choice.

Quote
As for PP discussing topic A x times and topic B y times, what on earth does it prove? For example imagine that I posted the following on separate days:

GC was a great batsman

GC served Aus well

GC understands batting

GC is technically sound

GC and IC were the two best Aussie batsmen brothers ever

GC is evil

GS is the worst coach ever

I have clearly been more than fair to GC right? I praised him 5 times and criticized him only twice.

The issue being discussed was that KBAN alleged that PP was frequently criticising SG fans while saying nothing about BCCI since Pawar took over. I gave him a count that exact opposite was the reality. That's it. It is not to show that PP does not criticise fans or PP is SG's friend. It was to refute KBAN's statement that PP criticises fans more and BCCI less.

Maybe I misunderstood kban's point but I thought it was more nuanced than that. One can criticize only the most egregious aspects of one entity and pretty much everything about the other. However, I personally have no expectations of fairness from PP and I do not care about what he criticizes and how often. I respected him once and read his reports and blog. I read him very rarely now. That's also the reason I have no idea what he says about BCCI now. I do know what he said about Pawar and about SG during GC's early days.
-P
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 01:04:23 AM by prfsr »
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kban1

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #184 on: December 14, 2006, 02:11:12 AM »

ruchir:

From the list of links you sent me, this is what Prem has referred to wrt BCCI

1) Ignored email sent by  a reader to BCCI and therefore need for BCCI to be professional
2) Need for BCCI Website
3) Revenue sharing
4) Ind WI Series scheduling
5) Talking around the gag order by GC
6) Need for a media manager
7) Appointment of long term managers  -- only article where there is even an oblique reference to the Pawar regime backtracking on appointing long term managers
8) Media rights and cricket development
9) Tour scheduling  / player burnout

Frankly this is not the type of points I was thinking of when I said what I said.

Except for #7, his comments have been about general BCCI malfunctioning, which has been going on forever and PP has been very good at dealing with these issues.

Frankly what I was looking for was a little more elaborate and well reasoned critique / criticism of the BCCI regime, particularly Pawar whom PP praised to the skies before he was elected.

A few issues where I wanted to see some personal input and critique (as PP says, he links on his blog, issues worth serious comment are followed with a serious post), not links to stories and a few lines thrown in, were

1)   The allotment of television scheduling for domestic games
2)   The issue of BCCI withholding funds earmarked for CAB
3)   The hounding of JD in courts to an extent that even the Mumbai High court dismissed the case for being motivated
4)   The BCCI’s backdown from confronting the ICC

I did not see that. Neither did I see anything other than a mild admonishment for the coach (not in the links you provided though) for insinuating Ganguly’s financial motives in ganging on to captaincy.

Anyways, I also think you misunderstood or oversimplified my argument – my argument was not about quantity of posts wrt BCCI and fans –my point was that while his editorial opinion making mode is switched on when commenting on cricket fans, it appears he is willing to tolerate a lot more from people who he supports (people who he is a fan of) before he puts his editorial opinion / criticism hat on.

SG fans have been bad is your opinion and is a rather sweeping statement to castigate fans of SG by using the example of a few vocal fans. Even so, you argue as if these guys are inherently bad or have behaved badly without any stimuli to bring them to where they are.

In my question to you about the events that have befallen SG and not other players such as VVS and AK, my point was to ask –do you thing fans of the latter players reacted to the same stimuli that SG fans reacted to ?

In response you gave me your take on a laundry list of items that SG has done as if the topic under discussion was SG’s innocence or guilt. The topic was the stimuli that the fans reacted to.

For one I do not agree with you about SG starting to roll in the mud. Much before SG told Harsha, the reporters knew. SG WAS WRONG IN OPENING HIS MOUTH, but the cat was already out of the bag. Whats even more significant is much before SG talking to the media, GC was already emailing selected journos about cancerous and disgraceful elements in the team. Not to mention suggesting a change in captaincy in the middle of the tour (It does not matter if his opinion was asked or not – a responsible person would suggest once, and let it rest, not seek out the player on the eve of the test and repeat his earlier viewpoints again. So if you have to blame anyone for starting the roll in the mud, then blame both of them –one for speaking with abandon, another for divulging dressing room conversations.

And after all this, GC did say “either him or me” after this, did follow the “anyone but SG” policy, did accuse SG as being a divisive spirit after the test against SL, did make comments about SG’s finances, so on and so forth. And you ask a naïve question by asking “where is the grudge on GC’s part or why does he hold a grudge ?”  Maybe that question is better asked of the man himself.

Anyways, we both know that our viewpoints on this issue do not match, so no point turning back the clock one year and rehashing again.

The point here is about what SG fans reacted to – you seriously think that fans are pondering along these lines or do you seriously think that fans even after accepting SG’s mistake in opening his big mouth, buy the theory that whatever retribution followed was justified by that incident.

I am sure most of them do not buy your who started the fight argument as the basis for rationalizing treatment meted out to him, and neither should they because it is a stretch too far.

To the Sg fan, SG was wrongly denied a chance even as every Tom Dick and Harry got their chance and were persisted with despite not so promising results  -- that’s their reasoning for the protests, the ones who indulged in whatever they did.

Irrespective of whether you and I endorse those actions, or whether we deem them as avoidable / bad / useless, your comment “SG fans have been bad, fans of other players have been good”  is an oversimplified and black and white view of the world, IMO.

Anyways, as far as this topic is concerned, I think I am willing to concede that our POVs will remain different. So I am going to desist from arguing more – I think I have put my POV across in detail and at this point people will either agree or disagree. And I am fine with that.
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inoc

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #185 on: December 14, 2006, 03:29:13 AM »

ruchir,


This is an FYI, PRFSR. SG did not make a statement in the heat of the moment. It was a planned thing. SG asked for GC's opinion before the start of the test. SG never talked about it till he had scored a century. He waited till he had something to show as a stepping stone to answer the question.

BTW, many people have said that either GC, or one of his confidants leaked the stepping down incident to Bhogle. There is no proof but this has been accepted by many. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe it was SG who told Bhogle to specifically ask this question so that he could break the news to the world, gain sympathy and put pressure on GC for actually giving that opinion? Has that occured to yo
u.



Yes many people have suggested that it was out in the open before HB asked the question to SG. The reasoning based on facts that the question was already asked and answered by SG in the press conference and in the press conference he was asked pointed questions to the effect - Did anybody ask you to step down from captaincy? Which presumably points to the ‘secret’ being common knowledge prior to the press conference.
These are facts. Now who told the journalist/s  has never come out although there have been rumours of a senior cricketer type (similar to the recent PP revelations) which you may or may not believe. Your ascertion that SG may have leaked it himself is imagination at best and downright incorrect if you allege that he revealed it to HB since HB himself in a public letter denied such.

Here is a copy of that letter which also points out that the fact came out in the press conference first.



The Editor
The Afternoon Despatch and Courier
Mumbai

Oct 01,2005

Sometimes the truth is boring, sometimes fantasy is alluring. Sadly you succumbed to fantasy for the truth in your lead story today is boring; very boring. On the third day of the test match we were to do a normal post match interview with Sourav Ganguly who had scored a century that day. While we were getting ready for it, our reporter Gautam Bhimani was in the press conference, his role being to bring Ganguly to where our camera was. And so, purely by accident, he heard Ganguly being asked at the press conference about whether he had been asked to step down.On hearing Ganguly’s answer, Gautam told the producer and me about it and so when Ganguly came along to our interview I merely asked him a question that had already been asked and which he had already answered. I knew nothing about what had transpired between him and Greg Chappell at the time. Sadly, that is all there is to it. I am sorry to disappoint you and the writer but that is it. There is no plot, no subterfuge. I can see why fantasy was the more interesting option.“Pawn” therefore was an unfortunate word to use for it suggests moral weakness. And the headline, given all this is untrue and a bit rude .So can we all be decent people, learn to differentiate between truth and fantasy, ignore those that cannot and apologise if we have made a mistake? On the very page on which the suggestion was made? Suitably bold so that people can see?

Sd/-Harsha Bhogle


so at least one part of your presumption being incorrect may I suggest you have a rethink about your accusation/ new conspiracy theory.

This is something to think about, among all the conspiracy theories floating about GC. Why do people think GC was responsible for leaking it to Bhogle? After all it was SG giving the interview. SG had scored a century. Why is it not possible that it was SG himself who asked Bhogle to specifically ask this question in the interview. And since it was a huge news to Bhogle himself, he asked it. GC had nothing to gain by leaking that incident to Bhogle. SG, on the other hand, had been the one under pressure and he was the one looking for some comfort, some sympathy from any quarter. What better way than to show yourself as the one who has been wronged.

Think about that.... Then think how would GC and selectors feel it what I just said was actually true (it might as well be).



I havent seen any articles alleging GC to have leaked it to HB (they may exist - only I havent seen them) and are if they exist are also incorrect as the above letter proves.
What follows in the rest of the paragraph has already been refuted in view of HBs letter.

I asked a very simple question. What can be the possible reason for GC to hold a personal grudge against SG? It is a very very simple question, that begs a very simple answer, which I don't know. That's why I am asking this question. So, don't call it ridiculous. Maybe what is ridiculous is this allegation itself -- that GC holds a personal grudge against SG.

Since you are asking the question (my reply is purely my impression and I dont have any proof what so ever), GC had a lot to gain from SGs demise.

1.    gets  rid of a player he thinks is not performing and hence able to try out other promising ones.
2.    able to get a hold on the team which was proving difficult with SG in the drivers seat
3.    make an example out of SG, so that the others fall in line.
4.    Pure ego clash

These are some of the reasons you can think of if you try to see the other side which although easy to say is difficult to accomplish.
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Libran

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #186 on: December 14, 2006, 04:11:40 AM »

FL:

Maybe you are missing the point that just as you think that this particular player (whoever he is) is hurting the team because he is no good anymore (according to you), there are others that feel that the team is better off with this player in the team because he is not done yet.

Isnt looking at his issue  only from your perspective reflective of self referent bias -- as in only you hold the team's interest above the player and the others with an opposite POV do not ?

Stop to consider the fact that they may also put the team first, but believe that the team would be better off with this hypothetical hero in the team than out.

Kban,
That is a reasonable stmt - i have to agree.

However, the issue then becomes what if the selector(s) or coach happens to have the belief or POV that some of us fans (myself included) also happen to have...then they proceed to execute on their beliefs. Right or wrong, they are not intending "harm" or "malice" to any one person based on their country, caste/creed, state, or "status"...they are executing based on their beliefs out of good faith.

(The execution may have involved hard decisions and some debateable push/shove/email activities - but they thought they have to go all out to achieve their belief)

In this case, if fans start going up in arms and rioting, well, not sure how any exec team can achieve decisions or try out what they believe in?

Fineleg...just equate this with the recent demonstration by Doctors against reservations or the uprising during the tabling of the Mandal Commision report...What were the demonstrations for ?

While it was a fact that it was the anguish of the individual impact that played a role, it was also the common goal of ensuring that the future did not have an adverse impact. Here too, the executive thought they did the correct thing...a parliamentary tabling of report, calling for making it a law, whatever.

People who thought it was good , kept quiet.Those who thought otherwise called it political games and fought it.

Similar is the case here. Just that it happened to an individual...but the truth is the fight is against the system...the individual is only a trigger.
ravi, I did be very happy if what you say is true, but alas you are very far from facts. It is really streching to imagine that all those effigy burning idiots where protesting for a systematic change in cricket set up. If indeed they did, they did a very poor job of presenting their case and in fact they hurt Indian cricket in the process.

in fact, if they were so concerned about indian cricket primarily, they would have protested about the green top in culcutta too. Some of them would not have booed the team in eden garden and also some of them on this DG would not have invented reasons to brush aside the treacherous politics in creating a green top in culcutta.

I am not keen on discussing the 'perceived" politics involved in Kolkata because that will have to be done with a stopover in Nagpur....I do not have the time for these virtual visits

However,we have seen the results of not being used to playing on green tops....maybe,just maybe the "effigy burning idiots" were right after all......in not protesting against the greentop..because now almost everyone is talking of fast, bouncy wickets for domestic cricket
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ruchir

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #187 on: December 14, 2006, 04:55:55 AM »

INOC --

Thanks for posting that letter. I had posted my SG theory merely as a theory...   :)
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fineleg

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #188 on: December 14, 2006, 06:25:03 AM »

Phew!!! Perspirations!!! ;D ;D ;D

Mock -
Need clarification for #1 and maybe #4...but here u go:

Pardon me for not being quick in responding...its a tiring loop.
I'm tired to keep answering these accusations, but for fear of being called a 'green wicket chicken' will provide a very short answer for now.

For this purpose of discussion assume my POV (SG's poor batting and being detrimental)...given that...

GC was the only one who took it face on to get SG out of the team (what with SG having the entrenched Maharaja political support of JD and all that)...It is not something you can do by just going to JD without facts...he needed to gather facts by talking to team members, and then he sent personal emails.

They got leaked is another story and God knows who did the leaks.

But,  I AM NOT SAYING GC is a SAINT. HE IS NOT A SAINT.
He is not detrimental to the team spirit. He is however, unfortunately proved to be INEFFECTIVE.
So, perhaps after WC (assuming we will as I predict fare badly) - time to kick GC out.

For being ineffective, not for being detrimental.

Phew! No more energy.

ok - some direct questions. please do take some rest and answer me when you regain energy.

was GC being DIVISIVE by spreading news about some players to the media? esp. considering that these players may very likely return to the squad later and be part of the team?

Clarify this incident - which players and what did he spread to media?

was his telling Selvey that SG was clinging to captaincy for "financial reasons" DETRIMENTAL to indian cricket?

That was very stupid remark. Agreed it is wrong. It cannot be compared however to SG playing politics and not having the right attitudes to the game etc.
UPDATED: When I say "cannot be compared", I meant whilst wrong it is not at the same "DETRIMENTAL" to the entire team level. Its ofcourse something he shud never have done, nor do in the future.


is writng an email behind one's back AFTER shaking hands in public and posing for photos DIVISIVE?
Everyone knows the "handshake" is a gimmick for media...it was a PRIVATE email!!! What is wrong in a private email and back/forth discussions - it shud have remained PRIVATE

is spreading lies about a player's fitness regimen DETRIMENTAL? (considering that it wa later disproved by the records presented by the trainer)
I have poor opinion of the "past" fitness regimen of folks like SG, ZK, AN et al. So, I dont think his criticism is wrong. As to "spreading" lies, who "spread" it to whom...aren't these detailed discussions with BCCI and not for media/public consumption - only the high level "not good regimen" remark was to the media ...I may be mistaken here if I do not remember the exact "spread" he did...so u can correct me.





« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 06:29:29 AM by fineleg »
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fineleg

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #189 on: December 14, 2006, 06:28:46 AM »

A clarification to #2 above -
When I say "cannot be compared", I meant whilst wrong it is not at the same "DETRIMENTAL" to the entire team level. Its ofcourse something he shud never have done, nor do in the future.
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Libran

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #190 on: December 14, 2006, 06:42:27 AM »

Fineleg...acting ignorant or just baiting  :D

The emails to his friendly reporters that so and so are cancerous...is what MT is referring to....

Mike Selvey's report is there for all to read...SG's divisive politics is only hearsay and GC's perception...VS/ YS / HS have all been gagged when they wanted to speak the truth...His so called covert messages to VVS has been proven wrong....the luncheon meeting with VVS in Hyderabad proves it....

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fineleg

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #191 on: December 14, 2006, 06:46:41 AM »

I already said that the Selvey thingy is wrong - no two ways abt it.

I agree with GC's POV that SG at that time was detrimental to the team. And, I agree with GC emailing the BCCI. That is the right course of action.
But if he is emailing that kinda report to reporters, that is detrimental too. Agreed. ( I may not remember the specifics, not "acting" or anything, but if he emailed reporters rather than to BCCI, then thats detrimental).


=========================
IMO, the lunch does not prove that it is false. Look SG and VVS may have patched up - but does not mean nothing ever happened.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 06:49:57 AM by fineleg »
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MockTurtle

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #192 on: December 14, 2006, 06:56:38 AM »

I already said that the Selvey thingy is wrong - no two ways abt it.

I agree with GC's POV that SG at that time was detrimental to the team. And, I agree with GC emailing the BCCI. That is the right course of action.
But if he is emailing that kinda report to reporters, that is detrimental too. Agreed. ( I may not remember the specifics, not "acting" or anything, but if he emailed reporters rather than to BCCI, then thats detrimental).


=========================
IMO, the lunch does not prove that it is false. Look SG and VVS may have patched up - but does not mean nothing ever happened.

when do you intend to leave your dream world where speculations and wishful thinking, not to forget "feelings" rule and return to the real world where concrete evidence and normal human behaviour prevails?  ;D
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sudzz

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #193 on: December 14, 2006, 06:57:35 AM »

WOW...

I stand up and applaud Prem Panicker and am willing to run three laps of Wankhede stark naked for accussing him.

He is right and Iam wrong about Indians being more interested in individuals than the team...a discussion that started about whether he was right to paint all Indian spectators with the same brush is now all about SG v/s GC and not about Prem and his article.

This from a articulate, well read and mostly well off bunch of Indians who are if nothing physically thousands of miles away from where the action is.

Applause to Prem for showing us who we really are....and thanks to Fineleg for reiterating Prem's point unequivocally though inadvertantly.
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fineleg

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #194 on: December 14, 2006, 06:59:26 AM »

Whatever, sudzz...

I was answering a question that was pending from yesterday...
I already wrote to you a few paras above.

PS: If we see a photo in ToI of a guy running naked around Wank...we'll know ;D
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sudzz

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #195 on: December 14, 2006, 07:00:47 AM »

Whatever, sudzz...

I was answering a question that was pending from yesterday...
I already wrote to you a few paras above.

PS: If we see a photo in ToI of a guy running naked around Wank...we'll know ;D

Yeah right and I have also mentioned that you did not bring it up intentionally, you are not the only one who is writing about SG and GC so there is no reason to take it personally.
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MockTurtle

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #196 on: December 14, 2006, 07:12:22 AM »

WOW...

I stand up and applaud Prem Panicker and am willing to run three laps of Wankhede stark naked for accussing him.

He is right and Iam wrong about Indians being more interested in individuals than the team...a discussion that started about whether he was right to paint all Indian spectators with the same brush is now all about SG v/s GC and not about Prem and his article.

This from a articulate, well read and mostly well off bunch of Indians who are if nothing physically thousands of miles away from where the action is.

Applause to Prem for showing us who we really are....and thanks to Fineleg for reiterating Prem's point unequivocally though inadvertantly.


 ::zzz:: actually Prem is discussed more than anyone else here. sorry, somehow, all judgemental/preaching posts get to me....
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 07:17:44 AM by MockTurtle »
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Libran

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #197 on: December 14, 2006, 07:18:29 AM »

WOW...

I stand up and applaud Prem Panicker and am willing to run three laps of Wankhede stark naked for accussing him.

He is right and Iam wrong about Indians being more interested in individuals than the team...a discussion that started about whether he was right to paint all Indian spectators with the same brush is now all about SG v/s GC and not about Prem and his article.

This from a articulate, well read and mostly well off bunch of Indians who are if nothing physically thousands of miles away from where the action is.

Applause to Prem for showing us who we really are....and thanks to Fineleg for reiterating Prem's point unequivocally though inadvertantly.


 ::zzz:: actually Prem is discussed more than anyone else here.

Don't sleep so much Mock....you may end up having nightmares......the dream has just begun...and course corrections leading to nightmares may not be good for the mind and body  :D :D
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MockTurtle

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #198 on: December 14, 2006, 07:20:22 AM »

WOW...

I stand up and applaud Prem Panicker and am willing to run three laps of Wankhede stark naked for accussing him.

He is right and Iam wrong about Indians being more interested in individuals than the team...a discussion that started about whether he was right to paint all Indian spectators with the same brush is now all about SG v/s GC and not about Prem and his article.

This from a articulate, well read and mostly well off bunch of Indians who are if nothing physically thousands of miles away from where the action is.

Applause to Prem for showing us who we really are....and thanks to Fineleg for reiterating Prem's point unequivocally though inadvertantly.


 ::zzz:: actually Prem is discussed more than anyone else here.

Don't sleep so much Mock....you may end up having nightmares......the dream has just begun...and course corrections leading to nightmares may not be good for the mind and body  :D :D

need better icons, wish the moderators would do something to that. am not able to quite convey my reaction accurately with the limited options available :)
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Libran

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #199 on: December 14, 2006, 07:21:52 AM »

WOW...

I stand up and applaud Prem Panicker and am willing to run three laps of Wankhede stark naked for accussing him.

He is right and Iam wrong about Indians being more interested in individuals than the team...a discussion that started about whether he was right to paint all Indian spectators with the same brush is now all about SG v/s GC and not about Prem and his article.

This from a articulate, well read and mostly well off bunch of Indians who are if nothing physically thousands of miles away from where the action is.

Applause to Prem for showing us who we really are....and thanks to Fineleg for reiterating Prem's point unequivocally though inadvertantly.


 ::zzz:: actually Prem is discussed more than anyone else here. sorry, somehow, all judgemental/preaching posts get to me....


Why only here.....check Bollywood

Amar Prem
Main Prem ki Deewanee hoon
Luv(Prem) ke liye kuch be karega

The hero's name in Maine Pyaar Kiya...was Prem

 ::)
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