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Cover Point

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #120 on: December 12, 2006, 11:18:33 PM »

If applause were equal to total agreement, then I would hardly have applauded you, ruchir, suraj, CP, FL, and a host of others who take contrarian viewpoints to mine.



Huh? And I thought we were friends!

Dost Dost na raha ....

Ay SG tune mere Dost ko kaisa bana diya....


--CP <Who is too drunk in his hotel room in Charlotte to make much sense>
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fineleg

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #121 on: December 12, 2006, 11:48:28 PM »

As flute says, it was not a debunked theory...there are alternate points of views to what some of us hold and it is debated perhaps, but not debunked.
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prfsr

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #122 on: December 13, 2006, 12:30:50 AM »

As flute says, it was not a debunked theory...there are alternate points of views to what some of us hold and it is debated perhaps, but not debunked.

True. Then again if you ask Pakistanis (not Rohan!) they will tell you that India lost all its wars with Pakistan. One believes what she/he wants to believe. As Flute rightly said, we are not courts.

-P
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MockTurtle

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #123 on: December 13, 2006, 12:32:38 AM »

As flute says, it was not a debunked theory...there are alternate points of views to what some of us hold and it is debated perhaps, but not debunked.

and the proof based on which these some of you hold these alternate views? hallucinations? crystal balls? wishful thinking?

inquisitive minds want to know what view do some of you hold about the person who went around asking the other team-mates about their captain, wrote emails to select journalists bashing select people in the team? after-all, 'some of you' are the objective, unbiased people of this world, not blinded by hero-worship. surely, you have the same yard-stick?





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fineleg

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #124 on: December 13, 2006, 12:36:46 AM »

As flute says, it was not a debunked theory...there are alternate points of views to what some of us hold and it is debated perhaps, but not debunked.

True. Then again if you ask Pakistanis (not Rohan!) they will tell you that India lost all its wars with Pakistan. One believes what she/he wants to believe. As Flute rightly said, we are not courts.

-P

Just one more final clarification:
When you say what one "wants" to believe...I want to clarify that.

There may be reasons for a person to "want" to believe his/her kid is the brightest in class, there may be reasons for a person to believe his/her country is the best - JUST SOME made-up examples...

There is no reason (atleast for me) to "want" to believe SG is bad. Becos I dont have any association with him, other than he is part of a team and a sport that I crazily follow. My conclusions and beliefs *in this case of SG/GC* are not based on what I "want" to believe, but what I have come to believe and form an opinion - based on:
1. watching the cricket myself over years
2. watching the news
3. reading the news (Internet/print), articles, blogs, interviews and the gamut
4. discussing with various folks in DG and outside DG
5. the frustrations when I see the way one plays (or doesn't play) etc. etc (few other channels to obtain opinions perhaps).

So, in this case it is not what we "want" to believe, but what we have come around to believing.

Doing all of #1-#5 above, may lead another person to form a different POV. Fine - live and let live. Different POV exist. Nothing can be done abt that.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 12:56:14 AM by fineleg »
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prfsr

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #125 on: December 13, 2006, 12:38:25 AM »


Well Flute SG possibly murdered hundreds, caused global warming and caused 9/11 as well. See the beauty of the escape clause "possibly"? Everything is possible. Kban said there was no evidence of the VVS issue. I will readily confess there is no real evidence that SG murdered anyone, but I am leaning towards believing he did since several murders in the Behala area (where SG's home is) never got solved or got enough attn from the  govt.

Also please remember that BCCI absolved SG of any wrongdoing in the divisiveness issue and essentially said GC's allegations were "not true". However, as you will agree, they did not issue a single statement about the Behala murders.

-P
aha, we are now back to the "hard evidence preferably video evidence" ONLY in case of SG. When it comes to certain other people or issues, we are much more flexible and are willing to draw our conclusions based on various media reports, inside scoop etc. Very convenient. what do you mean "there is no evidence of VSS issue"? what type of evidence are we looking for here?

As for me, I don't believe everything printed in news media, at the same time, I read all available sources and draw my own conclusions based on news reports and also my knowledge of the real world. In this instance, as events played out, I am leaning more towards believing it. Remember, this is not a court of law. We are not in the business of giving out punishment for wrong doing. We are only drawing conclusions based on certain set of events and based on certain information. Especially, we cannot employ higher standards of hard, videographic type evidence only in case of certain somebody.

[/quote]

Flute, nice try :) I presume you are talking about what I said about Akhtar's case. First, if you recall, I NEVER said he was or was not guilty. All I said is that I could consider the possibility that he was guilty just by the evidence of the ball and the umpire's verdict and so on.

This situation is *completely* different. Either you believe unsubstantiated rumors spread by GC and fueled by the likes of PP or you look for evidence. If there is no evidence and neither SG nor VVS are talking well we have little choice but let it go.
The BCCI actually ruled for SG, but I do not trust them much and so to me it is not that relevant. You clearly take the BCCI seriously, so it should be relevant to you, no?

Nevertheless, I am interested in why you believe that SG plotted to have VVS out of the team and how your belief has been reinforced.

-P
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fineleg

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #126 on: December 13, 2006, 12:49:00 AM »

MT,
while u choose to mock saying "crystal balls and hallucinations", I guess how I formed opinions are described already (above post as well as other more detailed posts in the past).

Wishful thinking? why? Why would I have wished to have SG out of the team (just for kicks?) other than if I believe he is not good for the team...

In anycase, yep - believe in it. The cliquians hallucinate and wishful thinking is what makes us believe SG was detrimental to the welfare of the Ind cricket team. QED.
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prfsr

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #127 on: December 13, 2006, 12:55:12 AM »

Toney,
Response to your earlier post.

1. Form: I have said this many times but will say it again. I had no problems dropping SG and removing him from captaincy and letting him come back. I had problems the way it was done, the vendetta and most of all "he will never be back in my tenure" statements. SG himself said from day 1 that he would never have a problem playing under RD. If you looked at the way the team operated, SRT and RD always had contributions. SG took responsibility. Ideally the same would happen with SG and RD switching roles.

2. Rumors and so on: We absolutely do not require hard evidence because there will likely be none. However, PP saying someone told him blah is not evidence of any kind. There was no accountability about the rumors being spread. Like I said, why not believe that SG murdered many children in Behal then? I started the rumor, and perhaps I can create enough id's to concur with me? Is there ONE piece of evidence that SG was a bad influence OTHER than he did not buy into the overnight change mentality?

3. Regarding Nagpur, MANY people swore that SG chickened out, he was scared etc etc. Did you read PP's POV about this? He absolutely believed all of it, it seemed to me. Look at the newspapers. I read the ToI, the Hindu, Telegraph, Statesman and rediff. Not ONE source said anything against Manohar. Not ONE. It was all SG. The fact is SG was carrying an injury that had been reported in the papers. Could he have played with it? Perhaps. I mean AK bowled with a broken jaw!! Did his teammates believe that he abandoned them? Again, some might well have. Personally I do not agree with this method of protest. BUT, we do NOT know that his injury was not the real reason. Either way, it is ridiculous to say he was scared, as you pointed out. Yet many in and outside the DG said that day after day.

-P
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prfsr

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #128 on: December 13, 2006, 12:58:54 AM »

The cliquians hallucinate and wishful thinking is what makes us believe SG was detrimental to the welfare of the Ind cricket team. QED.

It's ironic you should say this. I for one have no doubts about your support for the Indian team. I also have no doubts that you do not see both sides of the coin.

If you did, you would have not made the last statement when day in and day out many (including me) get labeled SG-fanatics because we disagree with GC and are constantly told that no matter what we say, we do hold SG above the team.
-P
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MockTurtle

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #129 on: December 13, 2006, 01:00:33 AM »

MT,
while u choose to mock saying "crystal balls and hallucinations", I guess how I formed opinions are described already (above post as well as other more detailed posts in the past).

Wishful thinking? why? Why would I have wished to have SG out of the team (just for kicks?) other than if I believe he is not good for the team...

In anycase, yep - believe in it. The cliquians hallucinate and wishful thinking is what makes us believe SG was detrimental to the welfare of the Ind cricket team. QED.


well, you still didn't answer my question about what "some of you" think about GC's actions. was that divisive? was that detrimental? eagerly waiting!
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dave_dj

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #130 on: December 13, 2006, 01:05:21 AM »

well, you still didn't answer my question about what "some of you" think about GC's actions. was that divisive? was that detrimental? eagerly waiting!
It would be just helpful to know what is divisive and what is not, especially from people who strongly beleive that SG was divisive.
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fineleg

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #131 on: December 13, 2006, 02:17:41 AM »

Pardon me for not being quick in responding...its a tiring loop.
I'm tired to keep answering these accusations, but for fear of being called a 'green wicket chicken' will provide a very short answer for now.

For this purpose of discussion assume my POV (SG's poor batting and being detrimental)...given that...

GC was the only one who took it face on to get SG out of the team (what with SG having the entrenched Maharaja political support of JD and all that)...It is not something you can do by just going to JD without facts...he needed to gather facts by talking to team members, and then he sent personal emails.

They got leaked is another story and God knows who did the leaks.

But,  I AM NOT SAYING GC is a SAINT. HE IS NOT A SAINT.
He is not detrimental to the team spirit. He is however, unfortunately proved to be INEFFECTIVE.
So, perhaps after WC (assuming we will as I predict fare badly) - time to kick GC out.

For being ineffective, not for being detrimental.

Phew! No more energy.
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kban1

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #132 on: December 13, 2006, 02:45:28 AM »

flute:

Quote
kban1, we can agree to disagree all we want, but for you to go around and say I debunked that point and he is still retaining his misperception is not the right thing, especially when we agree to disagree.

Now coming to my alleged agreement with you about SG's form, the point in question at that time was SG's continued 2 yrs bad form. At that time, your analysis showed that SG's form was not abysmal for 2 yrs in tests. I agreed with you in so far as 2 yrs thing is concerned. But, SG definitely was in poor form in ODIs for sometime and also showed extremely bad form in Pakistan series. When we definitely say with reasonable surety that SG was in bad form when he was dropped.

Now, again, if you want to agree to disagree, fine, but please don't say we are maintaining our stand inspite of you debunking it. you are very far from debunking this point or the 2nd point.

So what are you saying different than I did ? I said his form was good in tests over a 2 year period but for the Pak series (the only other series in which he performed poorly was against Aus at home, and even there he performed at par than some other luminaries).

I have never denied his performances in ODi’s at that time were not on par. I have always said that if he needed to be dropped from captaincy or from the team, it should have been after the Pak series at home, not after Zim, when he was trying and succeeding somewhat in getting back into rythym (as the County season before and the domestic season right after showed).

And what was my original argument with Fineleg ? That he kept insisting that SG was in terrible form for 2 years.

If what you have said above is the same thing I wrote on this thread and several others, then what is the argument here – none.

So the statistical analysis debunked fineleg’s point  -- notice I said partially in my post, as in relating to tests. So I stand by my comment – you agree, I agree, end of debate really on this point.

Quote
Not sure who talked about feelings here unless you are using your "right to choose interpretation mode"    :D

If I am not wrong, I remember even you agreeing that VVS issue is the only thing not debunked or something which doesn't hav enough evidence. Please reread my post and in fact I mentioned that possibly he lied to VVS. I am not going to believe it either way, but I am leaning more towards believing it because of the way events played out, as in BCCI attributing it to miscommunication without castigating GC, this issue not becoming a major defense point in SG's favour etc.

Nah, no interpretation – when a person says he possibly lied and uses that within a list of arguments to support fineleg’s contention about SG, then it indicates which way you the person is leaning –that’s the impression the reader gets. If your viewpoint is and was undecided, then perhaps a better phrasing of the sentence would have been appropriate to convey that thought to the reader.

Look at it this way. You accuse me of something. Assume CP is the adjudicator. CP looks at the whole case and thinks to himself – this is a kindergarten fight, these guys are not acting like adults or he thinks both of these guys are integral parts of my set up, I do not want a slanging match to evolve out of this. CP calls both of us and says, guys, you are grown ups, behave like that, try to be professional –end of story.

Now an observer like say Dhruv can question CP’s judgment in not dealing with the accusation, but how in the heck that equates to your allegation being proven to be true and me being held guilty is beyond me.

I have never used the lack of judgment in this issue to claim SG is innocent, but I have always said that he has not been proven guilty when responding to arguments similar to what you have presented. There is a difference, and a big difference at that. Hope you recognize that.

Quote
Since you did not offer any points against my other things I mentioned regarding point 2, I don't feel the need to go any further into it.

Here are your other points –

"SG was in extremely poor form and was also disruptive force by his attitude to fitness, refusal to work on his short comings, creating a storm by bringing up dressing room spat, possibly lying to VVS about GC's intentions of dropping him from tests"

Form –discussed before.

Disruptive force by attitude to fitness – not a given unless you take every bit of gossip into account.  He has never been the most athletic, anyways, and he has been an average ground fielder at best, so I do not see how you can arrive at so definitive a conclusion  -- its not as if he was Jonty before, lol. 

Refusal to work on his shortcomings – you make it sound like it was the conscious act of a petulant school boy !! Yes, he neglected his batting, which he should not have but your turn of phrase is a stretch too far.

And even after answering your points for the umpteenth time, it still does not get to the core of the issue. Because the points you raise have nothing to do with Fineleg’s accusations – his accusation of SG playing politics is one he goes spreading from thread to thread with never a shred of proof and continues doing so after his assertions get debunked on numerous threads.

So again, I stand by my comment addressed to fineleg. If you feel more than obliged to take umbrage at my claims against your brethren by metaphor, there is not much I can do about it.

Quote
Oh, you are welcome to join my soiree anytime you feel like. Also, please feel free not to join in. I only hope that you don't go around discrediting my soiree  without participating in it    :D

Never discredited your soiree. I still believe in a fair trial, you see !!  ;D
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kban1

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #133 on: December 13, 2006, 03:25:21 AM »

toney, first of all applause for a well written post.

now my response --

Quote
kban,
A couple of things:
1. I do agree that SG wasn't in as bad form in test cricket as some of us (including me) kept mentioning. He had a horrible series against Pak (ODI) which meant that it showed his avg test stats as even poorer.

True

Quote
Did he deserve to be dropped for the performance? I believe so. I believe he was at a point where it wasn't just a case of low scores but also the manner of dismissals where he couldn't come to terms with teams which sorted out his weakness. No one cared whether he had a weakness to the short ball or to deliveries outside the off stump as long as his scores were good.

Again, this echoes my stated position that if SG had to be dropped, it should have been after the Pak tour and not after Zimbabwe

Quote
Combined with his poor captaincy (this doesnt mean that I am saying RD is the greatest thing since sliced bread. But unfortunately, every post needs disclaimers on this DG), it painted a sorry picture of a man who took India to a WC finals and showed courage in everything he did.
So, IMO he deserved to definitely lose his captaincy and also his batting spot. Why I say that he should have been dropped is specifically for his own good. A guy like SG, unlike say a Devang *hi can go back to FC cricket, concentrate on his batting and sort his problems out. International cricket is not the right place to do that.

True, his captaincy was taking away attention from his job –batting. Towards the last part of his tenure as captain, his decision making wasn’t always the best.

He needed to be relieved of captaincy if only to get him to focus on the job at hand – batting.

Quote
2. As for his divisive work in the team: I have read all of your posts which attempt to debunk the theory. But honestly, all of it was based on the simple fact that there is no conclusive proof. I agree with you that it is not fair to judge SG on the basis of rumours. But you also have to accept the fact that it wasn't just cricinfo or DP who propagated these rumours. Even people like SMG (green wicketitis) had their say in this matter. Will there be so much smoke without any fire?

Again, none of this is to say that GC has been Sree Rama. But I don't think such stories will form out of thin air. No one will ever come forward and give conclusive proof in terms of fingerprints, taped conversations or secret videos. To be honest, it is surprising that a person with your capability to reason is so dismissive of such rumours when they are shared by former players and several reporters in addition to the ruckus it created in the Board, the Parliament etc. I can understand you asking the rest to show restraint in judging SG. I just cannot understand how you could so confidently say that SG is free of any wrongdoing in this whole affair.

Toney, I never accused Cricinfo of spreading the rumors originally. The fact is conspiracy theories abound in our media, and when the captain opted out (it was announced to the media right before the match started), all it took was a few media guys to start a rumor, unfortunately backed by a tongue in cheek wise crack by SMG and a more public declaration by Ravi Shastri at  a party he hosted  at his house for the media scribes and The Indian team (in Mumbai for the last test).

And it spread like wildfire. I have gone through the archives of Outlook, Hindu, TOI, Hindustan Times, telegraph and ABP for the periods in question – yet not a single of these papers make a mention of the fact that either he chickened out or that he let his team down by backing out – not in terms of a stated report or investigative piece.

To me this is a huge issue – that the captain ditches the team and yet not one of our cricket crazy media writers could put pen to paper to reveal such a fascinating expose ??

All we hear are allusions, back handed rumors et al ? Just is not plausible.

What is more is that from 3 days before the test at Nagpur started, ABP was covering the issue of grass on the wicket, SG, RD, & SRT’s repeated attempts to reason with members & curator to shave the grass off, SG’s injury, the fact that the physio was giving him painkiller injections to see if he could play through the pain, the fact that he and RD discussed about the possibility of him not playing the day before the match started, the fitness test scheduled on the morning of the test that would determine if SG could play or not, and several other issues.

Even if I assume that ABP is a vernacular newspaper published from Calcutta (therefore favoring SG), it is hard to believe that the reporter would be aiding and abetting such a conspiracy by SG to pull out of the test for 2+ days.

1)   That he would play along with SG and feed its readers such bogus news
2)   That he would not reveal such a scoop before and declare to its readers right away that SG wont play in the test.
3)   That it would be involved in such a cover up to favor the hometown boy

Especially if you consider that the reporter was Gautam Bhattacharya, the same guy who did not listen to SG’s request not to publish GC’s email.

Also ABP did report that the was given a clean chit – as in his injury was examined and the certificate attested by the physio, Anant Joshi, the BCCI doctor, and a Bombay based ortheopaedic surgeon. The report was then submitted to BCCI and that was how he could opt out of the last test at Mumbai.

Even if I for a moment believe that JD used his dadagiri to force Anant Joshi to sign off on the report, and in some way convince the ortheopaedic surgeon to concur, I fail to see how he could get a non Indian physio to sign off on the injury !

For the record, Cricinfo’s report echoed what ABP said –in terms of confirming the injury-- Cricinfo even gave the name of the problem and explained what it was.

And that’s the extent of the actual reporting on this issue.

The whole topic of former players saying that he backed out again is a rumor, as mentioned by PP. And his comment was that whoever said that would never confirm it to the press – so again its unsubstantiated, which brings us back to square one – accusation made but not backed up, no proof provided but to say “trust me”.

I do not believe Nagpur was ever discussed by Parliament & Board.

My point has always been that let someone provide some proof, at least publish an article on this whole issue. And let them explain the doctor and physio’s attestation.

My point has not been vouching for SG’s innocence, my point has always been that how can we declare guilt without evidence ?

Quote
PS: I remember Proloy making a comment about how SG never runs away from a greentop. He quoted Brisbane etc as proof. Many others nodded in agreement too. This is something that seems to be doing the rounds. But did anyone actually say that SG was ever scared of greentops? I thought that the rumour was that SG sat out the match to protest the preparation of a green-top by the Maharashtra board in their politics with JagguDa. While I cannot even begin to understand logic of preparing such a pitch for a home series and the harm that the curator and officials did to the home country by this deplorable deed, was SG right in sitting out in such an important match simply because he didnt agree with what was done? Didn't that hurt India? That is what was wrong about it. I dont think any Indian batsman  is "scared" as such of greentops. They wear enough protection that in most cases, they wouldnt even feel much pain if they were hit by a fast bowler. I think the accusations of SG being scared and running away developed over a period of time and were totally baseless. Correct me if I am wrong.


Well, I believe Shastri mentioned fear, SMG joked about green wicketitis, PP mentioned both protest and greenwicketitis with emphasis on the latter, and even DP mentioned the same.

I think the broader implication here is not being scared of the wicket or protesting, the implication is he let his team down as captain and leader.
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dave_dj

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #134 on: December 13, 2006, 03:32:16 AM »

But,  I AM NOT SAYING GC is a SAINT. HE IS NOT A SAINT.
He is not detrimental to the team spirit. He is however, unfortunately proved to be INEFFECTIVE.
So, perhaps after WC (assuming we will as I predict fare badly) - time to kick GC out.
I undersatnd that you are not happy with GC's performance off late but you did not answer the question of MT - do you think if a person is divisive if he " went around asking the other team-mates about their captain, wrote emails to select journalists bashing select people in the team?"
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MockTurtle

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #135 on: December 13, 2006, 03:35:23 AM »

the only place where i read that SMG used the word "greenwicketitis' and rolled his eyes over SG is Prem's blog. was it reported elsewhere?

thanks,
MT
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MockTurtle

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #136 on: December 13, 2006, 03:40:55 AM »

Pardon me for not being quick in responding...its a tiring loop.
I'm tired to keep answering these accusations, but for fear of being called a 'green wicket chicken' will provide a very short answer for now.

For this purpose of discussion assume my POV (SG's poor batting and being detrimental)...given that...

GC was the only one who took it face on to get SG out of the team (what with SG having the entrenched Maharaja political support of JD and all that)...It is not something you can do by just going to JD without facts...he needed to gather facts by talking to team members, and then he sent personal emails.

They got leaked is another story and God knows who did the leaks.

But,  I AM NOT SAYING GC is a SAINT. HE IS NOT A SAINT.
He is not detrimental to the team spirit. He is however, unfortunately proved to be INEFFECTIVE.
So, perhaps after WC (assuming we will as I predict fare badly) - time to kick GC out.

For being ineffective, not for being detrimental.

Phew! No more energy.

ok - some direct questions. please do take some rest and answer me when you regain energy.

was GC being DIVISIVE by spreading news about some players to the media? esp. considering that these players may very likely return to the squad later and be part of the team?

was his telling Selvey that SG was clinging to captaincy for "financial reasons" DETRIMENTAL to indian cricket?

is writng an email behind one's back AFTER shaking hands in public and posing for photos DIVISIVE?

is spreading lies about a player's fitness regimen DETRIMENTAL? (considering that it wa later disproved by the records presented by the trainer)





« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 03:44:42 AM by MockTurtle »
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sudzz

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #137 on: December 13, 2006, 03:43:08 AM »


IMO, SG was 1. Batting very poorly and 2. disruptive force in the Indian team at that time due to his attitude and the internal politics.


Way to go FL .. right points ..

Sudzz your turn   ;D

Thanks pankaj. I don't intend to endlessly debate this, since folks are set in the thinking.
But the above 2 points are the shortest way of putting it.

Fineleg...why do we need to always hear the shortest way of putting things...lets also hear the longer form...

Just as it is my opinion only problem being it is well supported by records and eminence in the form of captains of rival teams and coaches, not withstanding could you please articulate why was he a disruptive force in a team he forged together.

Its very easy to say one is set in ones thinking, thats why I think you dont read posts in depth, my views on SG are all over this DG and if you go thorugh my POV you will realise that Iam not in anyone camp.

Well I would love to read your rebuttal...

But I admire the way you suckered me into degenerating this discussion into SG vs GC that was not my intention and yet I fell prey to the common failing...

This is about all of us you, me everyone included and the great Mr Panicker has painted all of us with the same brush and has the gall to say we are all hero worshippers but dont care for the team. Instead of discussing that we are back to SG v/s GC.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 04:50:26 AM by sudzz »
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kban1

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #138 on: December 13, 2006, 04:46:35 AM »

Quote
the only place where i read that SMG used the word "greenwicketitis' and rolled his eyes over SG is Prem's blog. was it reported elsewhere?

no, not to my knowledge. PP reported it on his blog. But I chose not to make an issue of it.
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prfsr

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #139 on: December 13, 2006, 05:01:52 AM »

Quote
the only place where i read that SMG used the word "greenwicketitis' and rolled his eyes over SG is Prem's blog. was it reported elsewhere?

no, not to my knowledge. PP reported it on his blog. But I chose not to make an issue of it.

I agree with Toney that this was likely a joke (perhaps not in great taste, but then neither are ours about Raina  ::)  et al, so who are we to complain) by SMG that PP or his agent lapped up .... SMG wrote nothing of the sort in his columns.

Incidentally PP's sources were most likely one of the Bangalore boys....
-P
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toney

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #140 on: December 13, 2006, 05:15:37 AM »

kban, applause and thanks for your response. As I said earlier, I do know what you feel because I have read all (I think) of our earlier posts regarding this matter. I also agree with you saying that the timing (SG's dropping) was wrong but that still doesnt mean that he shouldnt have been dropped. It wasn't like SG covered himself in glory with that century. I am not belittling his effort but it still looked like he would struggle against the better teams, in spite of the century. Now, I do hope you wouldn't say that others have struggled, so why not them (you didnt here but I know the responses of many). If others struggled (including my hero SRT), then please do the same for them too.

As for the Nagpur issue, I guess we will continue to have different opinions. But what I am trying to say is that while I wholeheartedly agree that there is no proof, there are enough incidents to plant stories from both sides. Just as you have never seen these rumours of SG in print anywhere, I haven't seen good coverage of SG's injury prior to the Nagpur test morning. I would like to ask you the same question you wondered about but slightly differently. It surprises me that a potentially series deciding injury was not covered by any major newspaper other than ABP. Again, that is not to bring down ABP of which I have only heard good things. But isnt that a valid question? In addition, I have read on cricinfo about SG's Nagpur episode. Now, I know you dont give any credibility to such reports from them but you also know that I dont see enough reason to tag them as biased and with an agenda. :)  Again, there were plenty of rumours such as RD being aghast at this (rumoured) decision of sitting out by SG.

As for your (and flute's) comments about not taking the curator to task: well, it is sad that such politics continue to happen and will happen in future too, I am sure. Just as deplorable was the convenient lack of coverage of Bengal matches. But that doesn't mean that IF SG did this, he is OK to do that.

Prfsr,
I know you agreed with dropping or at least taking the captaincy away from SG.
As for the rumours and lack of coverage of the curator's (and the officials) work, please see response to flute and kban.
And your third para: I know people talked about chickening out. But you and I agree on the fact that except a few, no one is really scared of fast bowling in international cricket, especially SG who has his fair share of good overseas performances as captain. So I never really bought into that argument. Now, if we continue this discussion and a couple of others join in, I might still support this theory (of SG chickening out) just to rile these august few. ;D

Rest of you, thanks for the applause and the lone smite.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 05:18:44 AM by toney »
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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #141 on: December 13, 2006, 05:28:28 AM »

kban, applause and thanks for your response. As I said earlier, I do know what you feel because I have read all (I think) of our earlier posts regarding this matter. I also agree with you saying that the timing (SG's dropping) was wrong but that still doesnt mean that he shouldnt have been dropped. It wasn't like SG covered himself in glory with that century. I am not belittling his effort but it still looked like he would struggle against the better teams, in spite of the century. Now, I do hope you wouldn't say that others have struggled, so why not them (you didnt here but I know the responses of many). If others struggled (including my hero SRT), then please do the same for them too.

As for the Nagpur issue, I guess we will continue to have different opinions. But what I am trying to say is that while I wholeheartedly agree that there is no proof, there are enough incidents to plant stories from both sides. Just as you have never seen these rumours of SG in print anywhere, I haven't seen good coverage of SG's injury prior to the Nagpur test morning. I would like to ask you the same question you wondered about but slightly differently. It surprises me that a potentially series deciding injury was not covered by any major newspaper other than ABP. Again, that is not to bring down ABP of which I have only heard good things. But isnt that a valid question? In addition, I have read on cricinfo about SG's Nagpur episode. Now, I know you dont give any credibility to such reports from them but you also know that I dont see enough reason to tag them as biased and with an agenda. :)  Again, there were plenty of rumours such as RD being aghast at this (rumoured) decision of sitting out by SG.

As for your (and flute's) comments about not taking the curator to task: well, it is sad that such politics continue to happen and will happen in future too, I am sure. Just as deplorable was the convenient lack of coverage of Bengal matches. But that doesn't mean that IF SG did this, he is OK to do that.

Prfsr,
I know you agreed with dropping or at least taking the captaincy away from SG.
As for the rumours and lack of coverage of the curator's (and the officials) work, please see response to flute and kban.
And your third para: I know people talked about chickening out. But you and I agree on the fact that except a few, no one is really scared of fast bowling in international cricket, especially SG who has his fair share of good overseas performances as captain. So I never really bought into that argument. Now, if we continue this discussion and a couple of others join in, I might still support this theory (of SG chickening out) just to rile these august few. ;D

Rest of you, thanks for the applause and the lone smite.

ok here's an applause to counter the smite

good observations toney, kban, FL and pfsr

different perspectives but good observations
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kban1

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #142 on: December 13, 2006, 05:31:14 AM »

toney,

thanks.

Yes, I found it interesting in the beginning that only ABP covered the issue, but then I also try to reconcile that with SG and his coterie -the trusted group of journalists to whom he would open up, and perhaps thats why.

Interestingly Sg gave an interview to ABP after the first days play and the first question ABP asked him was

"how come you never declared the injury to the media before ? Now people are saying you sat out in a pique or that you didnt want to face the Aussie bowlers ?"

To which Sg responded, "are these journos really fools ?"

"Why would I do that --why would i declare to the world and my opponents by extension that I will not play and give the Aussies the opportunity to play pysch mind games. Back In aus, they knew that McGrath would not be vailable for the tests, but did they tell us ? They kept saying he will be back for the next test, trying to keep the pressure on us."

"And tell me why I would sit out of a match when the series hangs in balance, to top it all, we are down 0-1 ? Does this make any sense ? I have lost a match as captain, we need to even the series, and they think I feigned injury to sit out ??"
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toney

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #143 on: December 13, 2006, 05:37:56 AM »

suraj, thanks. The clique continues to live to neutralize the gangstas.

kban, I agree that that is the best reasoning that SG could give. But the problem here is that we all know the close relationship between JagguD and SG at that time. Unfortunately, that works against SG in this case.

I was thinking about some of the responses on this thread and actually am more angry with those idiots involved in the pitch doctoring than ever. We might still have been holding on to that proud record against the Aussies rather than having to regain the trophy when we visit them soon (which we will definitely do. Why? No McG, no Martyn, no Langer, no Hayden. Superman has his limits and God will take away the magic bat from Ponting and return it to its true owner, SRT). We will thus be world champions in both ODIs and tests by then.
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kban1

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #144 on: December 13, 2006, 05:41:46 AM »

Quote
...God will take away the magic bat from Ponting and return it to its true owner, SRT).We will thus be world champions in both ODIs and tests by then

Amen  ;D ;D
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Libran

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #145 on: December 13, 2006, 05:56:55 AM »

Quote
...God will take away the magic bat from Ponting and return it to its true owner, SRT).We will thus be world champions in both ODIs and tests by then

Amen  ;D ;D

Amen Vamen tho theek hai...First stop spreading your vitriolic sermons across the DG....

Oops !! Sorry.....this is not what is expected as a response .... was just trying to copy a similar response... kiddin''..and having some fun... :D :D :D
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kban1

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #146 on: December 13, 2006, 07:04:03 AM »

ruchir:

Quote
from ruchir:
LPS has written many rhetorical articles in recent past, saying that SRT is not playing well or VS is not playing well and how come these stars are in the team and SG is not? He has compared SG to just about everyone, from MK to SR and asked the question, why are they in the team and SG is not. So let me ask you this? Are these not rhetorical questions? Don't everyone know the answers? So why is LPS repeating them? Did he give any solution for these question? So why did you not criticise him? You criticise PP by saying that his article does not amount to much because there is nothing new in it. So, what was new in those rhetorical LPS articles? You didn't criticise him by saying that "Why is LPS writing such pieces when there is nothing new in them. No solutions." How come you were so silent then? I am not asking you to not criticise PP. I am pointing out your double standards. Your and those of many others. You say there is no point in crying hoarse over the points made by PP. Fine. But you never said there is no use crying hoarse over the rhetorical points LPS was making. Why? Is it so because LPS was talking in favor of SG?

Even if I assume it’s a rhetorical point, which I don’t because Let talk about history of PP. Show me one article written by him where he says that indian fans are unpatriotic, they want the team to lose because their favorite start is not selected. Show me just one such article/post written by him. The onus of evidence is on you. I can't prove something that doesn't exist. You say he has made such allegations. It's now time to prove your allegations. Either put up or shut the hell up. You say that if a lie is repeated over and over it starts looking like truth. You said so in regards to SG faking injury in Nagpur. I say you are telling a bloody lie about PP. And you think your repeating this lie over and over will make it look like truth. So, prove you allegations. Show me one URL where PP says that indian fans are unpatriotic or want team to lose. If you are unable to unearth even one such article, then it is my request that please don't write such nonsense about anyone. It is nothing but a figment of imagination of the over-fertile minds of SG fans, that make them think that PP calls SG fans unpatriotic of such stuff. Open your mind, please.

You think PP does not criticise current team management. Well, go through this comparison of RD/SG and JW/GC on Rediff. http://specials.rediff.com/cricket/2006/nov/27sld1.htm

Let me give a little background. I know you don't visit Sightscreen regularly. So let me tell you this. Some 6 months ago, when PP was in New York, he came up with an idea of a tabular comparison of RD/SG and GC/JW. On Sightscreen, he said that such a comparison was not possible on the blog because it did not allow tables. However once he goes back to India, he will do it on Rediff as he will have better manpower there for research. Now, go thru the slideshow and you will see that it shows SG and JW in a better light when compared to RD and GC. Slideshow does not have Prem's name but believe me, the idea was his and it happened after he went to India (as he said). Now, if PP did not want to show current team management in bad light, why would he let this slideshow appear on Rediff? He could have easily killed it until the stats became better. Or maybe just killed it completely if stats did not improve. Another thing, you may not know but PP was one of the first commentars to push SG for captaincy when SRT was failing. He pin-pointed various character triats of SG which, per him, bode him well as a captain. Yet, you guys think that PP is blindly against SG and has a pathological urge to criticise him. He criticise RD's captaincy in his game coverage just as much as he criticised SG's captaincy. It is another matter that you fail to see it that way.


LPS was making a point about double standards as he sees it when he compares numerous chances given to others while SG is not being afforded any. Even if I assume everyone knows and agrees with this POV (reality might be different, if you just take a sampling of posts on this DG where people have steadfastly argued – at least in the past-- that no double standards were being employed wrt SG), I find it difficult to comprehend this analogy you are attempting to draw here.

LPS makes a rhetorical point (according to you) about SG being denied his chances.

This is the same as PP taking a dig at fans at every chance he gets ?  All because they support a player ? He wrote on it ad nauseum when the first batch of protests were happening, then he took another sarcastic dig when VVS was left out of the squad, and now he uses another incident involving WI cricket at taking another dig.

And I should treat stating a fact (SG not being given chances while others are) at par with PP’s repeated sarcasm and digs at fans because they happen to support a particular player ?

Really that plain and simple ? Especially after having witnessed PP’s comments numerous times before.

Before you accuse me of harboring double standards, may be you ought to consider that in my opinion, LPS’s posts were hardly rhetorical, simply because too many people didn’t believe SG was being wronged –that is until the process came off the rails. So it was not a self evident truth to all. Past comments on this DG are proof of that.

Also, do consider that I viewed PP’s rhetoric in light of his past history and the latter was perhaps more influential in me making my comment. If you re read my post, I made several points, not just the rhetorical one, which to me had less significance. Let me refresh:

Quote
from kban1
The opportunism or the lack of uniform standards comes in because of history --history has shown PP quick on the draw to castigate fans (to the extent of questioning their patriotism to negate their arguments) for their alleged short sightedness in backing the star too much, yet he himself has been awfully short in coming forward to critique the Indian team, its captain, or the coach when the opportunity has called for the same. The same is true of criticism of the bCCI under the new and favored administration --which reflects a different form of fan worship, the inability to criticize people who he has supported.

And therein lies the irony -- for one so utterly incapable of maintaining even standards, for one who has shown that he cannot criticize his favorites when the time comes for it, criticizing other fans worshipping stars and insinuating lack of patriotism, is way too rich --and thats putting it mildly.

As in,
for someone who accuses others of being star centric fans, he has either been conspicuously absent in his criticism of people who he likes or his voice has been unusually muted.

I have read the Rediff article –the statistical analysis – and I find it an amazing stretch to connect PP’s opinion to a statistical summary of the 2 regimes, especially on an unsigned, uncommented piece that any junior staffer could have compiled from Stats guru on cricinfo for example.

I believe you that it was his idea. But what I find hard is a stat piece (published after the team is doing horribly and public is clamoring against the team and coach) being proferred as evidence  to show his criticism of his favorites.

I happen to know a lil bit about journalism, and I know how the media responds to current events and I see the statistical analysis as just that. I also am aware about how much an editor can or cannot veto without losing all credibility, so I find the argument that he would have stopped a statistical piece from running in Rediff as stretching naivette.

Notice, I am not saying that he would prevent the piece from running, I am responding to your argument that if he let it run, it must equate to him criticizing his favorites and therefore prove that he is the model unbiased and objective person who cares about team and not favorites.

Quote
from kban1
The timing is curious because of past history -- PP has never been shy at taking digs at fans of a particular player at any and every opportunity, even going to the extent of taking digs when other players such as VVS were dropped. He did make the assertion (numerous times) that these fans were unpatriotic, did not support the team, were willing to see the team fail etc etc, and he made these allegations when India was doing well too.

These comments were made when murmurs became louder about the process and its failures --the veiled (maybe not so veiled) dig is that supporters of the stars are murmuring or shouting when the team is failing --all because they want their star back even at the cost of the team failing.

As prfsr explained, the whole argument about people supporting a player and not the team is a little frivolous and PP was one of the original proponents of this argument and surprisingly many have bought it and used it to make a point, irrespective of the fact that it is structured on tortured logic to begin with.

I believe this is your bone of contention isn’t it, whereby you are clamoring for proof and asking me to show in which of his articles he has said so, and if I cannot do so, I should “shut the hell up” !!

My friend, I believe you remember the sightscreen days and will recall the blog being peppered with numerous comments from PP which carried his opinions as well. I also believe you are aware that PP either deleted those comments or blocked access to them to all and sundry after the flare up on the blog.

But its possible you have not connected the points together. So let me bring this into focus:

How exactly do you expect me to find such comments and show you the more than one reference he made to this effect ? 

Or should I assume that you threw me a rhetorical challenge, knowing fully well that the evidence that proves my point is destroyed ?

And by extending your polite request for me “to put up or shut the hell up”, should I assume that you are doubting my integrity in making the comments in the first place ?. oh wait, you are – here is your actual quote:

"I say you are telling a bloody lie about PP. And you think your repeating this lie over and over will make it look like truth."

Anyways, people who used to visit sightscreen regularly like Blwe, Sudzz, Jfk, DD, Toney, Mock, inoc, ravi, achutank, ramshorns, and a host of other silent readers should be able to back me up on this and prove to you that I am not lying about such comments.

I am sorry, you do not recall these references by PP, but I do not think it is fair to ask for proof when we all know what happened to the proof.

In spite of that, I did dig thorugh The Rediffiland blog just to prove to you that I did not lie to you. Here is a post from PP from rediffiland – please note the bolded portion.

Quote
By  Prem Panicker  02:34 | 27/May/2006 | 128 Comment(s)

Windies win by 6 wickets

Dwayne Bravo’s bowling has won the Windies one game from an improbable position and, this morning, helped nail India’s batting order to the mast; here, he was back to doing it this time with the bat.

A casual dance down the track to the first ball of the 42nd over, and Bravo was powering the ball high over Ramesh Powar’s head and onto the sightscreen; a sweep for two was followed by a blazing back foot punch for four. The power hitting got Bravo to his first ODI century; it also knocked 12 more off the target, and got the team to within sniffing distance of the finish line.

Wavell Hinds, playing his first hand of the tour and seemingly as determined as Bravo to make sure this game didn’t go down to the wire, joined the party with fours through the covers in successive Agarkar overs.

With nothing left to lose, Dravid gave Suresh Raina a bowl – and from the turn and bounce he got, you couldn’t help wondering why he never gets to bowl in earnest, at least for the odd two, three overs? Surely the point of building an ODI team is to bring together a lot of players who can contribute in more ways than one – the point of having them, then not using them, defeats me.

A slog sweep by Bravo over midwicket too the West Indies home in the last ball of the 44th; the home team had sealed a six wicket win and with it, the series (and for my money, Bravo had done enough to walk away with the man of the match award).

Now for the brickbats – the team has had a good long run; during this time, you’ve had one section of fans waiting for a stumble, for defeat (a strange way, it has always seemed to me, to follow a sport) just so as to be able to say ‘I told you so!’.

Didn’t happen against Sri Lanka, then the number two team in the world; not against Pakistan; not against South Africa; not against England – but finally the moment is here to bring out the knives.

Presumably, too, the fans following the fortunes of the team, as opposed to personalities, will have reason for heartburn.
The team had just gotten everyone used to consistently good performances – and then, in this series, produced a consistently bad run.

From the first game, to this fourth, there hasn’t been a moment when the team looked in command either in the field or with the bat – and now it is an uphill fight to recover lost ground, to regain lost momentum.

PostScript: Over and out for now, be back on Sunday.

My assertion stands about PP’s references to people waiting for the Indian team to fail so that Sg can get back in the team – which is about as clear a way of accusing someone of being unpatriotic without spelling out the words.

Also, while we are on the topic, in your post you claimed that I have accused PP of lying about Nagpur. I believe we have had this dicussion before and on that occasion I made it amply clear that I have not accused him of lying, but barking up the wrong tree wrt Nagpur 2004, metaphorically speaking. There is a difference, a huge one.

With that having been said, now can I get an apology ?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 07:10:48 AM by kban1 »
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Libran

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #147 on: December 13, 2006, 07:22:46 AM »

Kban

Can you pull out what tune PP is singing nowadays ..He must be , right, given that he must be thru' with his now famous and well publicized "customs clearance"  :P

And here is my earlier post on what I think of people who question the integrity of Indian cricket fans

"Compartmentalizing people with a bias for some players as "anti-national or gloating in the country's loss" is a very narrow way of looking at issues. People who compartmentalize like that are those who have an inherent frustrated outlook to life and want to put that frustration to work by painting people in a different color..."
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MockTurtle

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #148 on: December 13, 2006, 07:40:31 AM »

'CEO calling' perhaps happened after the customs clearing. His mysterious disappearances whenever tide is not flowing his way puzzles me. Or does it? :-)

PP, for all his preaching about fans and their behaviour never had much to say when another segment of fans were baying for SG's blood. Instead, he chose to do a "nudge, nudge, i know more about nagma story". All this angst and patriotism comes overflowing only when it is the other way around. In his limited world view, only unpatriotic act is defending a player (read SG). Ridiculing and slandering a national (or is it BCCI?) player is to be overlooked and is all very fair. Yes, he did write an angst-ridden piece about national heroes after the Kolkota ODI match against SA where he made a gracious mention of the booing of SG at B'lore but ONLY after the Kolkata incident!

 
Blwe, yeah, he writes well.   ::zzz::

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #149 on: December 13, 2006, 07:44:10 AM »


IMO, SG was 1. Batting very poorly and 2. disruptive force in the Indian team at that time due to his attitude and the internal politics.


Way to go FL .. right points ..

Sudzz your turn   ;D

Thanks pankaj. I don't intend to endlessly debate this, since folks are set in the thinking.
But the above 2 points are the shortest way of putting it.

Fineleg...why do we need to always hear the shortest way of putting things...lets also hear the longer form...

Just as it is my opinion only problem being it is well supported by records and eminence in the form of captains of rival teams and coaches, not withstanding could you please articulate why was he a disruptive force in a team he forged together.

Its very easy to say one is set in ones thinking, thats why I think you dont read posts in depth, my views on SG are all over this DG and if you go thorugh my POV you will realise that Iam not in anyone camp.

Well I would love to read your rebuttal...

But I admire the way you suckered me into degenerating this discussion into SG vs GC that was not my intention and yet I fell prey to the common failing...

This is about all of us you, me everyone included and the great Mr Panicker has painted all of us with the same brush and has the gall to say we are all hero worshippers but dont care for the team. Instead of discussing that we are back to SG v/s GC.

Exactly. FIneleg just picked up a secondary and minor point in your post and changed this into a SG vs. GC debate. How convenient.

The main point in your initial post has now been totally lost !!!!!

how about justifying or explaining your claim about the reality....
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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #150 on: December 13, 2006, 08:33:50 AM »

Sudzz,
Regarding your point that the fans are really more interested in the team rather than on specific heroes...I am only showing the SG example as a counterpoint. I'm not saying that fans wish for India to lose - but they have this urge to see their favorite player and are not seeing the fact that it may not put the team in the best position of strength to have that player.

The focus has to be more on the team as an entity. I think this is what PP is saying.
What do you find wrong with that stmt?

Even folks who have mocked PP here,  have stated that while they agree with what he is saying
1. The team should be the highest priority
2. Fans dont always remember or keep point#1 in their mind

They agree, but are just saying that PP shud not be talking abt such things. Thats their bone of contention.

Are u saying that what PP saying is incorrect? (namely there are a lot of fans who go up in arms when they see their "hero" removed from the team or hear such suggestions) - do u think this is not the case?
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kban1

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #151 on: December 13, 2006, 08:40:44 AM »

FL:

Maybe you are missing the point that just as you think that this particular player (whoever he is) is hurting the team because he is no good anymore (according to you), there are others that feel that the team is better off with this player in the team because he is not done yet.

Isnt looking at his issue  only from your perspective reflective of self referent bias -- as in only you hold the team's interest above the player and the others with an opposite POV do not ?

Stop to consider the fact that they may also put the team first, but believe that the team would be better off with this hypothetical hero in the team than out.
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Libran

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #152 on: December 13, 2006, 08:48:17 AM »

The only reason SG comes up in all this is because...

1. It has been a long ,long time since a national level cricketer has been treated that way ( The discussion here is not on the right or wrong of that...so let's not get there)
2. The reach of media was not what it is today
3. Issues like this have happened earlier...Kapil Dev and Kolkata and Bishen Bedi and Bangalore way back in the 70s but was subdued because of point 2 above.

And PP painting all of them who raise a voice against this as "unpatriotic" is like saying that Saddam walked around with WMDs tied to his undies
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 09:26:01 AM by ravi1010 »
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achutank

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #153 on: December 13, 2006, 08:48:49 AM »

Sudzz,
Regarding your point that the fans are really more interested in the team rather than on specific heroes...I am only showing the SG example as a counterpoint. I'm not saying that fans wish for India to lose - but they have this urge to see their favorite player and are not seeing the fact that it may not put the team in the best position of strength to have that player.

The focus has to be more on the team as an entity. I think this is what PP is saying.
What do you find wrong with that stmt?

Even folks who have mocked PP here,  have stated that while they agree with what he is saying
1. The team should be the highest priority
2. Fans dont always remember or keep point#1 in their mind

They agree, but are just saying that PP shud not be talking abt such things. Thats their bone of contention.

Are u saying that what PP saying is incorrect? (namely there are a lot of fans who go up in arms when they see their "hero" removed from the team or hear such suggestions) - do u think this is not the case?

FL

The role of a good analyst is not to indulge in empty rhethoric. If you read Swaminathan Ankileshwar Aiyar's columns you will know how without indulging himself in sighs and maons, he provides clean, clear answers to problems faced by Indian socio-economics. now nobody is disagreeing with Prem. how can you?

india is greatly divided on caste lines  ???
indian division of wealth is skewed  ???
politicans waste tax-payer's money in parliament  ???
we should be team supporters not star supporters  ???

* ???= rhethoric

we know what prem is speaking about, and its become repetitive ince not only has he been saying it since 1999 on rediff but its something writers have lamented about it from time inmemorial. but what the intelligent fan needs is good analysis and not rhtehoric.

so if can't give analysis, do rportage but stop being so rhethorical is what the above average informed reader wants, which is what all of us are on  this DG are and expect from some one like PP who we have been reading and responding to since many years.

is that not right in our mind to critizise then? if the MPs only raise issues in parliament and do not do anything about it term after term, we have every right to tell them to either solve the problems or jsut shut up and not waste our tax money.  :)
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fineleg

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #154 on: December 13, 2006, 08:50:15 AM »

FL:

Maybe you are missing the point that just as you think that this particular player (whoever he is) is hurting the team because he is no good anymore (according to you), there are others that feel that the team is better off with this player in the team because he is not done yet.

Isnt looking at his issue  only from your perspective reflective of self referent bias -- as in only you hold the team's interest above the player and the others with an opposite POV do not ?

Stop to consider the fact that they may also put the team first, but believe that the team would be better off with this hypothetical hero in the team than out.

Kban,
That is a reasonable stmt - i have to agree.

However, the issue then becomes what if the selector(s) or coach happens to have the belief or POV that some of us fans (myself included) also happen to have...then they proceed to execute on their beliefs. Right or wrong, they are not intending "harm" or "malice" to any one person based on their country, caste/creed, state, or "status"...they are executing based on their beliefs out of good faith.

(The execution may have involved hard decisions and some debateable push/shove/email activities - but they thought they have to go all out to achieve their belief)

In this case, if fans start going up in arms and rioting, well, not sure how any exec team can achieve decisions or try out what they believe in?
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fineleg

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #155 on: December 13, 2006, 09:07:22 AM »

Achu and Ravi,
I have read your respective posts.

I agree with Ravi's post abt the increase in media coverage.

Achu: regarding PP converting his stmt into action - i think he may not be able to "change the ppl" and convert them. But I agree partly abt the rhetorical type of stmt not directly producing an actionable result.
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fineleg

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #156 on: December 13, 2006, 09:15:20 AM »

Sudzz,
It was not my intention to route this down the SG-GC drain! Sorry if my comments on part of ur post led this down this route. But I want to clarify that it was not my purpose.
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justforkix

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #157 on: December 13, 2006, 09:20:19 AM »

However, the issue then becomes what if the selector(s) or coach happens to have the belief or POV that some of us fans (myself included) also happen to have...then they proceed to execute on their beliefs. Right or wrong, they are not intending "harm" or "malice" to any one person based on their country, caste/creed, state, or "status"...they are executing based on their beliefs out of good faith.

(The execution may have involved hard decisions and some debateable push/shove/email activities - but they thought they have to go all out to achieve their belief)

In this case, if fans start going up in arms and rioting, well, not sure how any exec team can achieve decisions or try out what they believe in?

So, you don't think the manner in which the whole SG dropping incident was handled had anything to do with the protests. There was not even an iota of professionalism in handling this whole thing by SG, GC, media, BCCI bozos and the stupid "committee" that they formed to resolve the issue. So, please don't come out and blame the fans for the protests that happened afer these incidents !!!! I find this whole blaming of the fans for all and sundry just an escapist way of looking at problems.
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Libran

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #158 on: December 13, 2006, 09:34:42 AM »

FL:

Maybe you are missing the point that just as you think that this particular player (whoever he is) is hurting the team because he is no good anymore (according to you), there are others that feel that the team is better off with this player in the team because he is not done yet.

Isnt looking at his issue  only from your perspective reflective of self referent bias -- as in only you hold the team's interest above the player and the others with an opposite POV do not ?

Stop to consider the fact that they may also put the team first, but believe that the team would be better off with this hypothetical hero in the team than out.

Kban,
That is a reasonable stmt - i have to agree.

However, the issue then becomes what if the selector(s) or coach happens to have the belief or POV that some of us fans (myself included) also happen to have...then they proceed to execute on their beliefs. Right or wrong, they are not intending "harm" or "malice" to any one person based on their country, caste/creed, state, or "status"...they are executing based on their beliefs out of good faith.

(The execution may have involved hard decisions and some debateable push/shove/email activities - but they thought they have to go all out to achieve their belief)

In this case, if fans start going up in arms and rioting, well, not sure how any exec team can achieve decisions or try out what they believe in?

Fineleg...just equate this with the recent demonstration by Doctors against reservations or the uprising during the tabling of the Mandal Commision report...What were the demonstrations for ?

While it was a fact that it was the anguish of the individual impact that played a role, it was also the common goal of ensuring that the future did not have an adverse impact. Here too, the executive thought they did the correct thing...a parliamentary tabling of report, calling for making it a law, whatever.

People who thought it was good , kept quiet.Those who thought otherwise called it political games and fought it.

Similar is the case here. Just that it happened to an individual...but the truth is the fight is against the system...the individual is only a trigger.
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sudzz

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Re: On the cricket fans' Idol Worship (title modified to remove author!)
« Reply #159 on: December 13, 2006, 10:22:50 AM »

See the one thing that rankles me about most of our journalists not just cricket in almost every single aspect is that...

1. Most of these guys are quite spineless and pander to the lowest common denominator
2. More than ever before thoughts can be purchased by relevant parties to present their POV
3. There is no independent thoughts that ever get put forth to inform the reader of what the author thinks
4. Editorials stink and reek of nepotism, favouritism and every other ism of the bad kind
5. Finally what gets my goat is the comment "Thats what people want to read" they think we are all collectively dumb...

PP's post on his blog is pretty much similar, a rehash of some old thoughts and the audacity to blame every single Indian cricket fan, Iam one of them and wont stand for being blamed for what Iam not doing.

The other thing many people brought up is that it is his blog therefore read it or ignore it...well its not so simple he is employed by Rediff thats in public domain and rediff advertises for his blogs on its home page and therefore it is tantamount to him advertising his blogs.

If he advertises and therefore wants to drive readers there then readers are also free to comment on his writings and by virtue of his associations with Rediff he is in public space and therefore his opinions must be countered.
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