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sudzz

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Indian Dream 11
« on: August 21, 2006, 09:30:48 AM »

In all this moroseness about called off matches, rain delays etc...lets look at something different...

What or who according to you would be a part of a Indian Dream Team-not just the playing 11, lets select a team of 15 with a dream team coach, manager etc...

My selection would be as below

1. Vinoo Mankad
2. Col CK Nayudu
3. Gavaskar
4. Tendulkar
5. Viswanath
6. Dravid
7. Abid Ali
8. Salim Durrani
9. Kapil Dev
10. Kirmani
11. Venkatraghavan
12. Bedi
13. Prasanna
14. Kumble
15. Pathan

Coach- J Wright

Manager-RSD

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vincent

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2006, 01:49:09 PM »

I would not have Pathan there yet.Perhaps Mohinder Amarnath who was a more accompished all-rounder.I have also read some great things about Mushtaq Ali who was supposed to be the original attacker later on being copied by people like Srikkanth and Sehwag.
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ramshorns

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2006, 02:24:40 PM »

I would not have Pathan there yet.Perhaps Mohinder Amarnath who was a more accompished all-rounder.I have also read some great things about Mushtaq Ali who was supposed to be the original attacker later on being copied by people like Srikkanth and Sehwag.
I agree, I would not have Pathan now in the 15 leave alone all time if given a choice for tests.
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ramshorns

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2006, 02:28:58 PM »

I would definitely have Chandrasekhar in the 15 in the place of Venkat probably.  Also I am not sure of Abid or Duranni there as well.  We have better batsman than Duranni.  Jimmy/Azhar/VVS/Vengsarkar are all better than him. For Irfan who is an OK bowler I will take Srinath over him.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2006, 02:30:46 PM by ramshorns »
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prfsr

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2006, 02:47:55 PM »

test or OD?
-P
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2006, 04:42:23 PM »

Dream Team (First Choice):

1. Gavaskar
2. Sehwag
3. Dravid
4. Tendulkar
5. Merchant
6. Umrigar
7. Engineer
8. Kapil Dev
9. Md. Nissar
10. Kumble
11. Chandrashekar


Notes:

Merchant: "The supreme yardstick for batsmanship is the Bradman scale. West Indies' George Headley was `the black Bradman'. Every Australian prodigy since 1948 has been heralded as `the new Bradman'. Gavaskar has rewritten the Test record books, and yet is still acknowledged as slightly lower caste. But if figures count, Vijay Merchant, with a first-class average of 71, is next in line to The Don, even though his Test average was only 47.72. On his home pitches he amassed thousands of runs, and on his two tours of England, 10 years apart, he showed batsmanship of rich class, making over 4000 runs on the two tours combined....... In seven consecutive Ranji innings between 1938-39 and 1941-42 Merchant made six centuries, ushering in, it was said, an era of safety-first batting in India........ and in 47 Ranji Trophy innings he reached 100 on 16 occasions, totalling 3639 runs at the astounding average of 98.75."

Umrigar: "One of the all time greats of Indian cricket, Polly Umrigar was a heroic figure from the late forties to the early sixties, almost always shining in a losing cause. Despite this, when he retired, he held the most important records - most Tests, most runs, most hundreds. In fact his records stood from 1962 to 1978 when they were broken by a certain Sunil Gavaskar........He is only one of two Indian cricketers (Vinoo Mankad being the other) to score a century and take five wickets in an innings - a feat he achieved against West Indies at Port of Spain in 1962. Umrigar was the first Indian to hit a Test double century."

Engineer: "A flamboyant batsman and an agile wicketkeeper, Farokh Engineer was one of the best of his trade, as shown by his selection as the first-choice keeper for the Rest of the World XI series in England and Australia in the early 1970s. Engineer was solidly built, yet had remarkably sharp reflexes - an essential requirement for keeping to the legendary spin quartet of Bedi, Prasanna, Chandrasekhar and Venkataraghavan. His finest moment as a batsman came against West Indies at Madras in 1966-67 when he plundered 94 before lunch on the first day - against Hall, Griffith, Sobers and Gibbs."

Mohammed Nissar: "India's first pace bowler, possible one of the fastest they have ever produced, and one of the best too. A bull of a man, Nissar could swing and cut the ball with verve, but it was his express speed that marked him out from his peers. Of his 25 Test victims, 13 were bowled or leg-before, testimony enough to his sheer pace. Nissar's partnership upfront with Amar Singh was as legendary as it was successful. In India's maiden Test at Lord's in 1932, he plunged the England innings into disarray by knocking over the stumps of Holmes and Sutcliffe, who only ten days earlier had added 555 for the first wicket for Yorkshire, and ended with 5 for 93. On that trip, he grabbed 71 wickets at 18.09 to head the averages......Another compelling demonstration of his hostility came against Jack Ryder's Australians on their tour of India in the winter of 1935. Thirty two wickets in four 'Tests' at 13 runs apiece spoke volumes for the damage he unleashed."
 
Dream Team (Second Choice):

This gives us a chance to consider those who narrowly missed out in the first XI.


1. (Vinoo) Mankad
2. (Vijay) Manjrekar
3. (Mohinder) Amarnath
4. Vishwanath
5. Hazare
6. Azharuddin
7. Amar Singh
8. Kirmani
9. Srinath
10. Gupte
11. Prasanna

 
Notes:

Promoted Manjrekar to open: the decision between choosing the next best Indian opener (Sidhu?)and leaving out a middle order stalwart was difficult.

Hazare: "He will be always remembered for his great performance on India's first tour of Australia in 1947-48, when he scored a century in each innings of the Adelaide Test. It was a huge effort against the run of play. Australia had piled up 674 runs, and as Hazare made his second-innings 145, with India following on, six of his team-mates failed to score. ............when India were four down without a run scored against Fred Trueman bowling at his fastest, Hazare stopped the rot for a while, scoring 56. Then in 1950 came what he called his "most faultless and best innings" - 115 against the Commonwealth team at Bombay. Jim Laker later recalled that game as his best bowling performance, in the humidity against two well-set batsmen, Hazare and Polly Umrigar................Hazare's most productive domestic season was in 1943-44 when he scored 1,423 runs. He made scores of 248, 59, 309, 101, 223 and 87, reaching 1,000 runs in only four matches."

Amar Singh: "'There is no better bowler in the world today than Amar Singh,'' said Len Hutton in an informal chat with pressmen at Madras in 1970. It was 34 years since the legendary England opening batsman had faced the Indian medium pace bowler while playing for Yorkshire............Another England great Wally Hammond described Amar Singh's bowling as 'he came off the pitch like the crack of doom'...........Amar Singh was however at his best in England where the conditions suited him. In 1932, he took 111 wickets (20.78) and made 641 runs (22.89) in the first class matches. By 1936 he was a popular Lancashire League professional and was released only for a few games for the Indian touring team. In the first Test, he took six for 35 in the first innings. In the second Test he again displayed his batting prowess by hitting an unbeaten 48 to help India draw the game............In a short but brilliant Ranji Trophy career for Western India and Nawanagar he took 105 wickets at 15.56 apiece. .........Born December 4, 1910, Rajkot, Gujarat Died May 21, 1940, Jamnagar, Gujarat (aged 29 years 169 days)"

Gupte: "After a slow start, his Test career really took off in the West Indies in 1952-53, when he took 50 wickets at an average of 23.64. More impressive was the fact that he took 27 wickets in the Tests on perfect batting wickets, and while bowling to the three W's, Rae, Stollmeyer and Pairaudeau. He was again the most successful bowler in Pakistan in 1954-55 with 21 wickets and the following season against New Zealand he was quite unplayable in finishing with 34 wickets (19.67), the Indian record until Chandrasekhar surpassed it 27 years later.........During a first-class career that stretched from 1947 to 1964, Gupte took 530 wickets (23.71). This included taking of all ten for Bombay against Pakistan Services and Bahawalphur CC in 1954."
« Last Edit: August 21, 2006, 05:08:10 PM by kingofprussia »
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2006, 06:57:37 PM »

And here is a Dream Indian Spectator's XI for ODIs:

- Batting strong all the way to number 10.
- Considering players after 1960 only.

Krish Srikkanth
Virender Sehwag
Sachin Tendulkar
Brijesh Patel
Sandeep Patil
Mahendra Singh Dhoni
Kapil Dev (captain)
Robin Singh
Budhi Kunderan
Salim Durani
Karsan Ghavri
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suraj

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2006, 06:59:30 PM »

And here is a Dream Indian Spectator's XI for ODIs:

- Batting strong all the way to number 10.
- Considering players after 1960 only.

Krish Srikkanth
Virender Sehwag
Sachin Tendulkar
Brijesh Patel
Sandeep Patil
Mahendra Singh Dhoni
Kapil Dev (captain)
Robin Singh
Budhi Kunderan
Salim Durani
Karsan Ghavri


Budhi Kunderan ??? ???

more info??
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2006, 07:10:59 PM »


Budhi Kunderan ??? ???

more info??

A dashing wicketkeeper in the mid/late 60s. He scored at a tremendous pace, especially for that day and age with the Indian team. Interestingly his 31 4s in an innings was the record until eclipsed by VVS Laxman's during the course of his 281. Check this link out: http://natarajanh.sulekha.com/blogs/blogdisplay.aspx?cid=66322
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ramshorns

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2006, 07:53:55 PM »

Dream Team (First Choice):

1. Gavaskar
2. Sehwag
3. Dravid
4. Tendulkar
5. Merchant
6. Umrigar
7. Engineer
8. Kapil Dev
9. Md. Nissar
10. Kumble
11. Chandrashekar



I like your lineup expect for 3.  I would find a place for Vishy and take him ahead of any batsman bar none and get Gupte ahead of Kumble and Kirmani for Engineer in that Dream Team.
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dextrous

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2006, 08:58:30 PM »

And here is a Dream Indian Spectator's XI for ODIs:

- Batting strong all the way to number 10.
- Considering players after 1960 only.

Krish Srikkanth
Virender Sehwag
Sachin Tendulkar
Brijesh Patel
Sandeep Patil
Mahendra Singh Dhoni
Kapil Dev (captain)
Robin Singh
Budhi Kunderan
Salim Durani
Karsan Ghavri


Yuvraj SIngh can be another addition, along with Jadeja. Srinath should be there too, to boost the bowling aggro! Harbhajan yet another. Chetan Sharma could get a look in too, for his aggressive batting--
So here's mine:

Srikanth
Sehwag
Dhoni
Tendulkar
Patil
Jadeja
Kapil Dev
Robin Singh
Chetan Sharma
Harbhajan
Srinath
12th man: Yuvraj
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CLR James

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2006, 09:08:17 PM »

Here is what I pick for a test eleven (assuming a fair, even pitch that will not crumble on the third day and ideal weather conditions, without disproportionately helping batsmen, pacers or spinners).

1. Vinoo Mankad
2. S. M. Gavaskar
3. Vijay Merchant.
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Gundappa Vishwanath
6. C. K Nayudu
7. Kapil Dev Nikhanj
8. S. M. H Kirmani
9. L. Amar Singh
10. Erapalli Prasanna.
11. Bhagwat Chandrashekhar.

I guess I need to justify some exclusions and inclusions. Let me begin by saying that I have simply picked people according to their best form.

1. With Mankad opening, we of course have another bowling option. Vijay Merchant comes in at number three despite the obvious hovering presence of a certain Rahul Dravid. Comparisons are odious, but a man who averaged 72 and up in fc cricket and around 47 in tests  in an era of uncovered wickets, no bouncer restrictions, and poor batting gear, and who, for people who have seen both of them bat, cannot be said to be an inferior batsman than Gavaskar in any way, is good enough for me. Dravid misses out, but only by a fraction.

2. There of course can be no question about number 4.

3. Vishwanath is my number 5 for two reasons. First, at his peak, between 1972-76, the kind of batsmanship he displayed is unsurpassed by any Indian till date. I believe that for those four seasons Vishy was the best ever batsman in the annals of Indian cricket. Better than Sunny, Sachin, Dravid, or any of the past greats. It is another matter that beer and inertia got better of him after that. Vishy's overall record should also judged keeping in mind his was the last generation of batsmen who had to perform in uncovered wickets and helmetless conditions for the most part. Perhaps this is a sentimental choice on my part, but if such a choice is to be made at all, Vishy has to be it. It is he who, more than anyone else, displayed to us the heights of beauty to which this game can be taken. Azhar could have been a close contender, had he played a few more legendary knocks against scary fast bowling. 

4. Number six has CK Nayudu instead of Sehwag or Dravid. Once again, this is a choice based on history. No other person, past or present, including Kaps, Sunny, or Tendulkar, dominated the Indian cricketing psyche so powerfully and for so long as the Colonel has. We forget that he was 37 when he made his test debut; his modest figures at that level do not eclipse his other legendary achievements, like that 153 against the visitng MCC in 1927 with 11 sixes. CK's modest fc average of 35 can also be explained by the fact that he played cricket at that level till his early sixties. When he was 50, he was still good enough to score a 200 not out in the Ranji Final. Besides, he will be a more potent bowling option than Viru or Dravid. CK is simply too widely acknowledged to be one of the most primal talents of Indian cricket for me to ignore him.

The rest I think pick themselves. Amar Singh was called the best bowler in the world by none other than Wally Hammond. I pick Pras because with his flight and loop I think he would be a far better weapon than HS especially in foreign wickets. Since we already have a world class spinner in Mankad who turns the ball away from the bat, I picked Chandra ahead of Subhash Gupte or Kumble because of his unpredictability.
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CLR James

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2006, 09:11:53 PM »

Dream Team (First Choice):

1. Gavaskar
2. Sehwag
3. Dravid
4. Tendulkar
5. Merchant
6. Umrigar
7. Engineer
8. Kapil Dev
9. Md. Nissar
10. Kumble
11. Chandrashekar


Notes:

Merchant: "The supreme yardstick for batsmanship is the Bradman scale. West Indies' George Headley was `the black Bradman'. Every Australian prodigy since 1948 has been heralded as `the new Bradman'. Gavaskar has rewritten the Test record books, and yet is still acknowledged as slightly lower caste. But if figures count, Vijay Merchant, with a first-class average of 71, is next in line to The Don, even though his Test average was only 47.72. On his home pitches he amassed thousands of runs, and on his two tours of England, 10 years apart, he showed batsmanship of rich class, making over 4000 runs on the two tours combined....... In seven consecutive Ranji innings between 1938-39 and 1941-42 Merchant made six centuries, ushering in, it was said, an era of safety-first batting in India........ and in 47 Ranji Trophy innings he reached 100 on 16 occasions, totalling 3639 runs at the astounding average of 98.75."

Umrigar: "One of the all time greats of Indian cricket, Polly Umrigar was a heroic figure from the late forties to the early sixties, almost always shining in a losing cause. Despite this, when he retired, he held the most important records - most Tests, most runs, most hundreds. In fact his records stood from 1962 to 1978 when they were broken by a certain Sunil Gavaskar........He is only one of two Indian cricketers (Vinoo Mankad being the other) to score a century and take five wickets in an innings - a feat he achieved against West Indies at Port of Spain in 1962. Umrigar was the first Indian to hit a Test double century."

Engineer: "A flamboyant batsman and an agile wicketkeeper, Farokh Engineer was one of the best of his trade, as shown by his selection as the first-choice keeper for the Rest of the World XI series in England and Australia in the early 1970s. Engineer was solidly built, yet had remarkably sharp reflexes - an essential requirement for keeping to the legendary spin quartet of Bedi, Prasanna, Chandrasekhar and Venkataraghavan. His finest moment as a batsman came against West Indies at Madras in 1966-67 when he plundered 94 before lunch on the first day - against Hall, Griffith, Sobers and Gibbs."

Mohammed Nissar: "India's first pace bowler, possible one of the fastest they have ever produced, and one of the best too. A bull of a man, Nissar could swing and cut the ball with verve, but it was his express speed that marked him out from his peers. Of his 25 Test victims, 13 were bowled or leg-before, testimony enough to his sheer pace. Nissar's partnership upfront with Amar Singh was as legendary as it was successful. In India's maiden Test at Lord's in 1932, he plunged the England innings into disarray by knocking over the stumps of Holmes and Sutcliffe, who only ten days earlier had added 555 for the first wicket for Yorkshire, and ended with 5 for 93. On that trip, he grabbed 71 wickets at 18.09 to head the averages......Another compelling demonstration of his hostility came against Jack Ryder's Australians on their tour of India in the winter of 1935. Thirty two wickets in four 'Tests' at 13 runs apiece spoke volumes for the damage he unleashed."
 
Dream Team (Second Choice):

This gives us a chance to consider those who narrowly missed out in the first XI.


1. (Vinoo) Mankad
2. (Vijay) Manjrekar
3. (Mohinder) Amarnath
4. Vishwanath
5. Hazare
6. Azharuddin
7. Amar Singh
8. Kirmani
9. Srinath
10. Gupte
11. Prasanna

 
Notes:

Promoted Manjrekar to open: the decision between choosing the next best Indian opener (Sidhu?)and leaving out a middle order stalwart was difficult.

Hazare: "He will be always remembered for his great performance on India's first tour of Australia in 1947-48, when he scored a century in each innings of the Adelaide Test. It was a huge effort against the run of play. Australia had piled up 674 runs, and as Hazare made his second-innings 145, with India following on, six of his team-mates failed to score. ............when India were four down without a run scored against Fred Trueman bowling at his fastest, Hazare stopped the rot for a while, scoring 56. Then in 1950 came what he called his "most faultless and best innings" - 115 against the Commonwealth team at Bombay. Jim Laker later recalled that game as his best bowling performance, in the humidity against two well-set batsmen, Hazare and Polly Umrigar................Hazare's most productive domestic season was in 1943-44 when he scored 1,423 runs. He made scores of 248, 59, 309, 101, 223 and 87, reaching 1,000 runs in only four matches."

Amar Singh: "'There is no better bowler in the world today than Amar Singh,'' said Len Hutton in an informal chat with pressmen at Madras in 1970. It was 34 years since the legendary England opening batsman had faced the Indian medium pace bowler while playing for Yorkshire............Another England great Wally Hammond described Amar Singh's bowling as 'he came off the pitch like the crack of doom'...........Amar Singh was however at his best in England where the conditions suited him. In 1932, he took 111 wickets (20.78) and made 641 runs (22.89) in the first class matches. By 1936 he was a popular Lancashire League professional and was released only for a few games for the Indian touring team. In the first Test, he took six for 35 in the first innings. In the second Test he again displayed his batting prowess by hitting an unbeaten 48 to help India draw the game............In a short but brilliant Ranji Trophy career for Western India and Nawanagar he took 105 wickets at 15.56 apiece. .........Born December 4, 1910, Rajkot, Gujarat Died May 21, 1940, Jamnagar, Gujarat (aged 29 years 169 days)"

Gupte: "After a slow start, his Test career really took off in the West Indies in 1952-53, when he took 50 wickets at an average of 23.64. More impressive was the fact that he took 27 wickets in the Tests on perfect batting wickets, and while bowling to the three W's, Rae, Stollmeyer and Pairaudeau. He was again the most successful bowler in Pakistan in 1954-55 with 21 wickets and the following season against New Zealand he was quite unplayable in finishing with 34 wickets (19.67), the Indian record until Chandrasekhar surpassed it 27 years later.........During a first-class career that stretched from 1947 to 1964, Gupte took 530 wickets (23.71). This included taking of all ten for Bombay against Pakistan Services and Bahawalphur CC in 1954."


KoP,

Umrigar's image however has been tarnished by his running away to the square leg umpire while he was facing a particularly fierce Freddy Truman. Uncle Polly was never really comfortable against top class pace bowling.
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dextrous

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2006, 09:16:00 PM »

I don't see Solkar's name anywhere...he would certainly add a bit to support the spinners..
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suraj

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2006, 10:20:41 PM »

Dream Team (First Choice):

1. Gavaskar
2. Sehwag
3. Dravid
4. Tendulkar
5. Merchant
6. Umrigar
7. Engineer
8. Kapil Dev
9. Md. Nissar
10. Kumble
11. Chandrashekar



I like your lineup expect for 3.  I would find a place for Vishy and take him ahead of any batsman bar none and get Gupte ahead of Kumble and Kirmani for Engineer in that Dream Team.

i predicted with 100% certainity this was coming form you rams ;D ;D
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LosingNow

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2006, 11:20:36 PM »

Dream Team (First Choice):

1. Gavaskar
2. Sehwag
3. Dravid
4. Tendulkar
5. Merchant
6. Umrigar
7. Engineer
8. Kapil Dev
9. Md. Nissar
10. Kumble
11. Chandrashekar


Notes:

Merchant: "The supreme yardstick for batsmanship is the Bradman scale. West Indies' George Headley was `the black Bradman'. Every Australian prodigy since 1948 has been heralded as `the new Bradman'. Gavaskar has rewritten the Test record books, and yet is still acknowledged as slightly lower caste. But if figures count, Vijay Merchant, with a first-class average of 71, is next in line to The Don, even though his Test average was only 47.72. On his home pitches he amassed thousands of runs, and on his two tours of England, 10 years apart, he showed batsmanship of rich class, making over 4000 runs on the two tours combined....... In seven consecutive Ranji innings between 1938-39 and 1941-42 Merchant made six centuries, ushering in, it was said, an era of safety-first batting in India........ and in 47 Ranji Trophy innings he reached 100 on 16 occasions, totalling 3639 runs at the astounding average of 98.75."

Umrigar: "One of the all time greats of Indian cricket, Polly Umrigar was a heroic figure from the late forties to the early sixties, almost always shining in a losing cause. Despite this, when he retired, he held the most important records - most Tests, most runs, most hundreds. In fact his records stood from 1962 to 1978 when they were broken by a certain Sunil Gavaskar........He is only one of two Indian cricketers (Vinoo Mankad being the other) to score a century and take five wickets in an innings - a feat he achieved against West Indies at Port of Spain in 1962. Umrigar was the first Indian to hit a Test double century."

Engineer: "A flamboyant batsman and an agile wicketkeeper, Farokh Engineer was one of the best of his trade, as shown by his selection as the first-choice keeper for the Rest of the World XI series in England and Australia in the early 1970s. Engineer was solidly built, yet had remarkably sharp reflexes - an essential requirement for keeping to the legendary spin quartet of Bedi, Prasanna, Chandrasekhar and Venkataraghavan. His finest moment as a batsman came against West Indies at Madras in 1966-67 when he plundered 94 before lunch on the first day - against Hall, Griffith, Sobers and Gibbs."

Mohammed Nissar: "India's first pace bowler, possible one of the fastest they have ever produced, and one of the best too. A bull of a man, Nissar could swing and cut the ball with verve, but it was his express speed that marked him out from his peers. Of his 25 Test victims, 13 were bowled or leg-before, testimony enough to his sheer pace. Nissar's partnership upfront with Amar Singh was as legendary as it was successful. In India's maiden Test at Lord's in 1932, he plunged the England innings into disarray by knocking over the stumps of Holmes and Sutcliffe, who only ten days earlier had added 555 for the first wicket for Yorkshire, and ended with 5 for 93. On that trip, he grabbed 71 wickets at 18.09 to head the averages......Another compelling demonstration of his hostility came against Jack Ryder's Australians on their tour of India in the winter of 1935. Thirty two wickets in four 'Tests' at 13 runs apiece spoke volumes for the damage he unleashed."
 
Dream Team (Second Choice):

This gives us a chance to consider those who narrowly missed out in the first XI.


1. (Vinoo) Mankad
2. (Vijay) Manjrekar
3. (Mohinder) Amarnath
4. Vishwanath
5. Hazare
6. Azharuddin
7. Amar Singh
8. Kirmani
9. Srinath
10. Gupte
11. Prasanna

 
Notes:

Promoted Manjrekar to open: the decision between choosing the next best Indian opener (Sidhu?)and leaving out a middle order stalwart was difficult.

Hazare: "He will be always remembered for his great performance on India's first tour of Australia in 1947-48, when he scored a century in each innings of the Adelaide Test. It was a huge effort against the run of play. Australia had piled up 674 runs, and as Hazare made his second-innings 145, with India following on, six of his team-mates failed to score. ............when India were four down without a run scored against Fred Trueman bowling at his fastest, Hazare stopped the rot for a while, scoring 56. Then in 1950 came what he called his "most faultless and best innings" - 115 against the Commonwealth team at Bombay. Jim Laker later recalled that game as his best bowling performance, in the humidity against two well-set batsmen, Hazare and Polly Umrigar................Hazare's most productive domestic season was in 1943-44 when he scored 1,423 runs. He made scores of 248, 59, 309, 101, 223 and 87, reaching 1,000 runs in only four matches."

Amar Singh: "'There is no better bowler in the world today than Amar Singh,'' said Len Hutton in an informal chat with pressmen at Madras in 1970. It was 34 years since the legendary England opening batsman had faced the Indian medium pace bowler while playing for Yorkshire............Another England great Wally Hammond described Amar Singh's bowling as 'he came off the pitch like the crack of doom'...........Amar Singh was however at his best in England where the conditions suited him. In 1932, he took 111 wickets (20.78) and made 641 runs (22.89) in the first class matches. By 1936 he was a popular Lancashire League professional and was released only for a few games for the Indian touring team. In the first Test, he took six for 35 in the first innings. In the second Test he again displayed his batting prowess by hitting an unbeaten 48 to help India draw the game............In a short but brilliant Ranji Trophy career for Western India and Nawanagar he took 105 wickets at 15.56 apiece. .........Born December 4, 1910, Rajkot, Gujarat Died May 21, 1940, Jamnagar, Gujarat (aged 29 years 169 days)"

Gupte: "After a slow start, his Test career really took off in the West Indies in 1952-53, when he took 50 wickets at an average of 23.64. More impressive was the fact that he took 27 wickets in the Tests on perfect batting wickets, and while bowling to the three W's, Rae, Stollmeyer and Pairaudeau. He was again the most successful bowler in Pakistan in 1954-55 with 21 wickets and the following season against New Zealand he was quite unplayable in finishing with 34 wickets (19.67), the Indian record until Chandrasekhar surpassed it 27 years later.........During a first-class career that stretched from 1947 to 1964, Gupte took 530 wickets (23.71). This included taking of all ten for Bombay against Pakistan Services and Bahawalphur CC in 1954."
Didnt Rediff publish your first choice list (through some kind of voting)..a few years ago. The name Md. Nissar and his description looks familiar
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ramshorns

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2006, 11:24:44 PM »

Dream Team (First Choice):

1. Gavaskar
2. Sehwag
3. Dravid
4. Tendulkar
5. Merchant
6. Umrigar
7. Engineer
8. Kapil Dev
9. Md. Nissar
10. Kumble
11. Chandrashekar



I like your lineup expect for 3.  I would find a place for Vishy and take him ahead of any batsman bar none and get Gupte ahead of Kumble and Kirmani for Engineer in that Dream Team.

i predicted with 100% certainity this was coming form you rams ;D ;D
See I did not diappoint you. :D :D :D :D :D
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CLR James

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2006, 12:47:19 AM »


I agree with Rams. Are we in the minority?
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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2006, 01:07:08 AM »

Didnt Rediff publish your first choice list (through some kind of voting)..a few years ago. The name Md. Nissar and his description looks familiar

No idea, though I doubt we both would have the exact list. But likely their XI is contained within the set of 22 I named? I doubt even that - I seemed to have left out C.K. Nayudu and I am sure Bishan Bedi has his share of support.

All my bio-excerpts are from the Cricinfo profiles. I thought about this for a few hours and posted. I know the least about Nissar or Amar Singh but am going by what I have read. I have followed cricket closely from the mid 70s and have heard first hand about the 50s and 60s crew from family/friends who followed them eagerly.

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2006, 01:15:37 AM »

I agree with Rams. Are we in the minority?

There is no doubt that Vishy was spectacular at his peak. I agree that at his best he gave glimpses of sublime artistery, perhaps approached somewhat only by Azhar's artistic splendor ever since. His star was at its brightest a little too short for my liking, hence my omitting him from the first XI. One can level the same charge against some of the others I have picked, especially the old timers.

I do not know much about CKN, so I neglected him through lack of knowledge. Your description sounds like he is certainly up there.

The only thing I will not seriously accept in argument, is omitting Dravid.

Clearly this becomes like a beauty contest - the greatness is in the eyes, senses, and memories of the beholder. So it doesn't really matter who is the minority as long as you are sure  :)
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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2006, 01:46:44 AM »

Here is what I pick for a test eleven (assuming a fair, even pitch that will not crumble on the third day and ideal weather conditions, without disproportionately helping batsmen, pacers or spinners).

1. Vinoo Mankad
2. S. M. Gavaskar
3. Vijay Merchant.
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Gundappa Vishwanath
6. C. K Nayudu
7. Kapil Dev Nikhanj
8. S. M. H Kirmani
9. L. Amar Singh
10. Erapalli Prasanna.
11. Bhagwat Chandrashekhar.


3. Vishwanath is my number 5 for two reasons. First, at his peak, between 1972-76, the kind of batsmanship he displayed is unsurpassed by any Indian till date. I believe that for those four seasons Vishy was the best ever batsman in the annals of Indian cricket. Better than Sunny, Sachin, Dravid, or any of the past greats. It is another matter that beer and inertia got better of him after that. Vishy's overall record should also judged keeping in mind his was the last generation of batsmen who had to perform in uncovered wickets and helmetless conditions for the most part. Perhaps this is a sentimental choice on my part, but if such a choice is to be made at all, Vishy has to be it. It is he who, more than anyone else, displayed to us the heights of beauty to which this game can be taken. Azhar could have been a close contender, had he played a few more legendary knocks against scary fast bowling. 

CLR:Very interesting 11 of yours.  That is a great list of names, I will never have a problem with if I were the coach.  No matter how hard you try we miss out on some one or the other.  But one name we should never miss in that list IMO is Vishy, no matter who you leave out, bar none. 

Then Applause for that beautiful description of Vishy. 

I want all on DG who never watched Vishy take it at face value. In every sense Vishy was the greatest when confronted with a challenge in trying conditions where lesser mortals would have come up wanting.   Though at his best in the 70's the one knock I will never forget is the 114 in a total of 237 against Lillee and Company in 1981 at Melbourne against our now coach GC's Aussies.  What an exhibition of skill and grace under trying conditions which took us to a win and help draw the series 1-1.  GC the Aussie skipper remarked " All things considered this is the best knock I have seen" at the time.  Vishy was declared Man of the Match for that knock.  I am sure most of you have seen my compilation of his great knocks on another thread.  We are lucky to have a great like that who played for India.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 03:37:13 AM by ramshorns »
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CLR James

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2006, 05:58:42 AM »


That was a great knock, but perhaps even better were the 97 and the 139 against the West Indies. You are right Rams. It is very difficult to convince people who have not seen Vishy about his greatness. It is a pity he was around just before cricket became so hyper professionalized. I have seen Vishy at his best, at his declining moments, and also when he was at the verge of retirement from fc cricket. All in all, I have never seen anything better. I have never seen any other Indian bastman dominate and flourish to such utter joyous extent.

I know for certain that if a talent like him was a product of today's cricket, with diet charts, gyms, techno-coaching, video analysis, he would perhaps be told to play in percentages, that is cut out the late cut completely, play the square cut only after the first hour, curb the square drive till the 25th over etc. He would have played another 40 tests more, and would have scored another 5000 runs more, with perhaps another 14 hundreds. But that would have proved nothing more. But the all important point is that not only did he revel us with his artistry, but Vishy also scored runs almost every time we needed him to. He was no absent minded self indulging artist. Can we, at the heart of hearts, say the same thing about a Tendulkar? Oops perhaps I am opening a can of worms here.
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keep-it-cool

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2006, 06:12:41 AM »

I know for certain that if a talent like him was a product of today's cricket, with diet charts, gyms, techno-coaching, video analysis, he would perhaps be told to play in percentages, that is cut out the late cut completely, play the square cut only after the first hour, curb the square drive till the 25th over etc.

Of this, I am not sure ... we have the likes of Sehwag who are not asked to curb anything.
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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2006, 06:23:48 AM »

Funny, I don't see Saurav Ganguly's name anywhere!
Are we trying to be politically correct? :D

He can easily make into kOP's 3rd team...the team of entertainers.....definitely in place of Robin Singh.
As a captain however, he will walk into any of these teams anyway!
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jaat69

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2006, 06:29:19 AM »

And here is a Dream Indian Spectator's XI for ODIs:

- Batting strong all the way to number 10.
- Considering players after 1960 only.

Krish Srikkanth
Virender Sehwag
Sachin Tendulkar
Brijesh Patel
Sandeep Patil
Mahendra Singh Dhoni
Kapil Dev (captain)
Robin Singh
Budhi Kunderan
Salim Durani
Karsan Ghavri


You may have missed out on SG and Mustaq Ali.
They will be ahead of Patel and Robin Singh.
Faroukh Engineer will remain ahead of Budhi Kunderan anyway, as a crowd puller.
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k-slice

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2006, 06:34:39 AM »

jaat,
lets not let marketing take more importance then talent!! ;)
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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2006, 06:39:40 AM »

I know for certain that if a talent like him was a product of today's cricket, with diet charts, gyms, techno-coaching, video analysis, he would perhaps be told to play in percentages, that is cut out the late cut completely, play the square cut only after the first hour, curb the square drive till the 25th over etc.

Of this, I am not sure ... we have the likes of Sehwag who are not asked to curb anything.

Comparing Sehwag to Vishy is like comparing say a ballerina to a pole dance...both given immense pleasure to the viewer but there ends the similarity...Vishy was classy a touch artist who mesmerised the bowler and the spectator alike..Sehwag on the other hand is ruthless, powerful and aggressive to the extent of both the bowler and the spectator being in physical danger of being hit on the head with one of his powerful swipes.

They are very very different so in todays cricket while Sehwag would not be asked to curb his instincts but Vishy would surely be because he is one of those who position would have been that of consolidation (something along the line of VVS everyone know he is classy but he also gets out to some of his fav strokes and has been asked to curb them to prolong his tenure)
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keep-it-cool

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2006, 06:45:02 AM »

I know for certain that if a talent like him was a product of today's cricket, with diet charts, gyms, techno-coaching, video analysis, he would perhaps be told to play in percentages, that is cut out the late cut completely, play the square cut only after the first hour, curb the square drive till the 25th over etc.

Of this, I am not sure ... we have the likes of Sehwag who are not asked to curb anything.

Comparing Sehwag to Vishy is like comparing say a ballerina to a pole dance...both given immense pleasure to the viewer but there ends the similarity...Vishy was classy a touch artist who mesmerised the bowler and the spectator alike..Sehwag on the other hand is ruthless, powerful and aggressive to the extent of both the bowler and the spectator being in physical danger of being hit on the head with one of his powerful swipes.

They are very very different so in todays cricket while Sehwag would not be asked to curb his instincts but Vishy would surely be because he is one of those who position would have been that of consolidation (something along the line of VVS everyone know he is classy but he also gets out to some of his fav strokes and has been asked to curb them to prolong his tenure)

sudzz, i am not comparing VS and VIshy's batsmanship .. just pointing out that players are not necessarily asked to curb their instincts. I also disagree that VVS has been asked to change his instincts. Maybe he himself did change stuff because he felt he would be more effective that way or would probably be of more use to the team that way - but I have not heard of any coach asking VVS to stop playing a shot the way he is comfortable. Of course, a coach or captain or selector can demand that whatever you do, you got to perform at a bare minimum - and if a player feels that he cannot reach that bare minimum doing things the way he is currently, he may change. And that is entirely fair.
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jaat69

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2006, 07:10:15 AM »

jaat,
lets not let marketing take more importance then talent!! ;)

So, you feel that SG, Mustaq Ali and Faroukh are less talented than the ones mentioned here?!
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sudzz

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2006, 09:22:13 AM »

jaat,
lets not let marketing take more importance then talent!! ;)

So, you feel that SG, Mustaq Ali and Faroukh are less talented than the ones mentioned here?!

I dont think the issue is about their talent being inferior to others (though I have personally never watched Engineer play or Mushtaq Ali either) but it is more to do with relative talent and relative marketability
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jaat69

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2006, 10:02:01 AM »

jaat,
lets not let marketing take more importance then talent!! ;)

So, you feel that SG, Mustaq Ali and Faroukh are less talented than the ones mentioned here?!

I dont think the issue is about their talent being inferior to others (though I have personally never watched Engineer play or Mushtaq Ali either) but it is more to do with relative talent and relative marketability

Sorry, I didn't get that.
Are you saying that Mustaq Ali, Faroukh Engineer and Saurav Ganguly may be out of this team, because of their average talent and market value?
Or that, Budhi Kunderan, Brijesh Patel and Robin Singh are more marketable and relatively more talented than the above mentioned?
Faroukh during his days was a big draw and so was Mustaq Ali ( I haven't seen him too, but read about him a lot.)
SG has always been a big draw with the sponsors.
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sudzz

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2006, 10:06:45 AM »

jaat,
lets not let marketing take more importance then talent!! ;)

So, you feel that SG, Mustaq Ali and Faroukh are less talented than the ones mentioned here?!

I dont think the issue is about their talent being inferior to others (though I have personally never watched Engineer play or Mushtaq Ali either) but it is more to do with relative talent and relative marketability

Sorry, I didn't get that.
Are you saying that Mustaq Ali, Faroukh Engineer and Saurav Ganguly may be out of this team, because of their average talent and market value?
Or that, Budhi Kunderan, Brijesh Patel and Robin Singh are more marketable and relatively more talented than the above mentioned?
Faroukh during his days was a big draw and so was Mustaq Ali ( I haven't seen him too, but read about him a lot.)
SG has always been a big draw with the sponsors.

LOL when I re read it even I couldnt get what I wrote... ;D...so much for writing in the heat of the moment...Let me think it through and reply a little later...
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KKIRANK61

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2006, 10:25:22 AM »


That was a great knock, but perhaps even better were the 97 and the 139 against the West Indies. You are right Rams. It is very difficult to convince people who have not seen Vishy about his greatness. It is a pity he was around just before cricket became so hyper professionalized. I have seen Vishy at his best, at his declining moments, and also when he was at the verge of retirement from fc cricket. All in all, I have never seen anything better. I have never seen any other Indian bastman dominate and flourish to such utter joyous extent.

I know for certain that if a talent like him was a product of today's cricket, with diet charts, gyms, techno-coaching, video analysis, he would perhaps be told to play in percentages, that is cut out the late cut completely, play the square cut only after the first hour, curb the square drive till the 25th over etc. He would have played another 40 tests more, and would have scored another 5000 runs more, with perhaps another 14 hundreds. But that would have proved nothing more. But the all important point is that not only did he revel us with his artistry, but Vishy also scored runs almost every time we needed him to. He was no absent minded self indulging artist. Can we, at the heart of hearts, say the same thing about a Tendulkar? Oops perhaps I am opening a can of worms here.

yes I fully agree withu about evefy comment u made on Vishy.
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jaat69

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2006, 10:49:03 AM »

jaat,
lets not let marketing take more importance then talent!! ;)

So, you feel that SG, Mustaq Ali and Faroukh are less talented than the ones mentioned here?!

I dont think the issue is about their talent being inferior to others (though I have personally never watched Engineer play or Mushtaq Ali either) but it is more to do with relative talent and relative marketability

Sorry, I didn't get that.
Are you saying that Mustaq Ali, Faroukh Engineer and Saurav Ganguly may be out of this team, because of their average talent and market value?
Or that, Budhi Kunderan, Brijesh Patel and Robin Singh are more marketable and relatively more talented than the above mentioned?
Faroukh during his days was a big draw and so was Mustaq Ali ( I haven't seen him too, but read about him a lot.)
SG has always been a big draw with the sponsors.

LOL when I re read it even I couldnt get what I wrote... ;D...so much for writing in the heat of the moment...Let me think it through and reply a little later...


chalo...I have got the reply! :D
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LosingNow

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2006, 12:25:42 AM »

Dream Team (First Choice):

1. Gavaskar - 5'4""
2. Sehwag - ?? (should be close to SRT)
3. Dravid
4. Tendulkar - 5'5"
5. Merchant - 5'7"
6. Umrigar -
7. Engineer
8. Kapil Dev
9. Md. Nissar
10. Kumble
11. Chandrashekar



I like your lineup expect for 3.  I would find a place for Vishy and take him ahead of any batsman bar none and get Gupte ahead of Kumble and Kirmani for Engineer in that Dream Team.
Just noticed something.. If you replace Dravid with Vishwanath(who, I believe, is as tall as, if not shorter than Gavaskar?) in KOP's team, this could be one "short" batting line-up...of  "little" masters. ;D ;D
Wonder if any other country has ever produced so many "short" batting greats. I guess, it somewhat proves that height really does not matter while batting...or do Indian playing conditions have something to do with this.
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2006, 12:36:40 AM »

Wonder if any other country has ever produced so many "short" batting greats. I guess, it somewhat proves that height really does not matter while batting...or do Indian playing conditions have something to do with this.

I have always wondered if lack of height has been an advantage to tackle fiery pace bowling. Gavaskar, Vishwanath, Tendulkar from India buttress the theory. May be from their height, it is easier to dig out yorkers and the bouncy ones fly over them  ;D

Seriously, as you mention, I think it proves that height above 5 ft doesn't really matter.

On the other hand pace bowling might be advantageous with great height. I notice that in our generation it was quite rare to find an Indian taller than 6ft 1 who was normal. However, a non trivial number of ABCD kids are often 6 ft 2 - 6 ft 4. Wonder if that has been the case with the younger generation in India also. An athletic 6 ft 4 in person could make a heck of an intimidating bowler.
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dhruvdeepak

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2006, 08:04:30 AM »

Wonder if any other country has ever produced so many "short" batting greats. I guess, it somewhat proves that height really does not matter while batting...or do Indian playing conditions have something to do with this.

I have always wondered if lack of height has been an advantage to tackle fiery pace bowling. Gavaskar, Vishwanath, Tendulkar from India buttress the theory. May be from their height, it is easier to dig out yorkers and the bouncy ones fly over them  ;D

Seriously, as you mention, I think it proves that height above 5 ft doesn't really matter.

On the other hand pace bowling might be advantageous with great height. I notice that in our generation it was quite rare to find an Indian taller than 6ft 1 who was normal. However, a non trivial number of ABCD kids are often 6 ft 2 - 6 ft 4. Wonder if that has been the case with the younger generation in India also. An athletic 6 ft 4 in person could make a heck of an intimidating bowler.
we need to get Dalip Singh to bowl for India  ;D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalip_Singh

Height    221 cm (7 ft 3 in)
Weight    200 kg (420 lb)
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LosingNow

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2006, 08:11:10 AM »

Wonder if any other country has ever produced so many "short" batting greats. I guess, it somewhat proves that height really does not matter while batting...or do Indian playing conditions have something to do with this.

I have always wondered if lack of height has been an advantage to tackle fiery pace bowling. Gavaskar, Vishwanath, Tendulkar from India buttress the theory. May be from their height, it is easier to dig out yorkers and the bouncy ones fly over them  ;D

Seriously, as you mention, I think it proves that height above 5 ft doesn't really matter.

On the other hand pace bowling might be advantageous with great height. I notice that in our generation it was quite rare to find an Indian taller than 6ft 1 who was normal. However, a non trivial number of ABCD kids are often 6 ft 2 - 6 ft 4. Wonder if that has been the case with the younger generation in India also. An athletic 6 ft 4 in person could make a heck of an intimidating bowler.
we need to get Dalip Singh to bowl for India  ;D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalip_Singh

Height    221 cm (7 ft 3 in)
Weight    200 kg (420 lb)
420 lbs! Stand and deliver!
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CLR James

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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2006, 04:40:21 PM »

Wonder if any other country has ever produced so many "short" batting greats. I guess, it somewhat proves that height really does not matter while batting...or do Indian playing conditions have something to do with this.

I have always wondered if lack of height has been an advantage to tackle fiery pace bowling. Gavaskar, Vishwanath, Tendulkar from India buttress the theory. May be from their height, it is easier to dig out yorkers and the bouncy ones fly over them  ;D

Seriously, as you mention, I think it proves that height above 5 ft doesn't really matter.

On the other hand pace bowling might be advantageous with great height. I notice that in our generation it was quite rare to find an Indian taller than 6ft 1 who was normal. However, a non trivial number of ABCD kids are often 6 ft 2 - 6 ft 4. Wonder if that has been the case with the younger generation in India also. An athletic 6 ft 4 in person could make a heck of an intimidating bowler.

You can add people like Bradman and Lara to that mix of little masters. Also Hanif Mohammad.
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Re: Indian Dream 11
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2006, 08:33:22 PM »

Also Aravinda DeSilva
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