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Author Topic: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room  (Read 11513 times)

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jaat69

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2006, 03:50:38 PM »

In the 3 series prior to the Aus series SG averaged 125, 47 & 77. And then he suddenly becomes a spent force? This is exactly the problem in the SG issue, some people's sheer lethargy to think for themselves, while happily repeating lies fed to them by the media like Crockinfo and the English language newspapers (who hire experts based on their ability to bash Ganguly).

India had just won a series in Pakistan against Pakistan. There was no reason for Ganguly to step down. The rot started with India losing to Aus thanks to the VCA and the traitor curator, and the subsequent hounding of Ganguly for "chickening out", reducing his reputation to tatters. Let me put it bluntly, it was nothing but a power struggle between the now ruling body and Dalmiya, a great man under whom Indian cricket reached it's zenith. These Mir Jafars had no qualms in stabbing Indian cricket in the back, as long as it served their petty ends.

The real cancers are the current ruling body, who will take Indian cricket down the drain.

Excellent rhetoric.... good for getting lot of applauses, but nothing more than that. Your post is good in bashing but it does so without any content. I wish you had provided some content in backing your allegations. It would have made better reading.


The real cancers are the current ruling body, who will take Indian cricket down the drain.

Exactly how is the new Admin taking the Indian cricket down the drain? BCCI is and will be earning manyfold more money that what it was under JD and RSM. New Admin has increased salaries of Umpires. It is taking concrete steps towards getting a web site, which previous Admin never thought about. How exactly are you coming to a conclusion that the new Admin is taking Indian cricket down the drain?? Sure, any Admin has problems and issues. This one has too, just like the previous one had. Show me something that this Admin has done, that previous Admin did not do? Actually, I would like to know your definition of - going down the drain. What exactly do you mean by that?? Please explain.


Dalmiya, a great man under whom Indian cricket reached it's zenith.

Oh yeah. Definetly a great man. The same great man who removed SG from captaincy, right? Was that the zenith of Indian cricket in your eyes? Was it the zenith when RSM was the elections because JD casted 2 votes himself and a person from opposition was not allowed to vote? What a great man!!! Under JD, BCCI was spending about 3-4% of its earnings on improving the game's infrastructure. Most of it was being spent on meetings in 5-star hotels, bills of honorary members, court cases etc. Remaining was deposited in bank. That surely was the Zenith of Indian cricket. Before every series there would be court cases on BCCI for TV rights. Was there any court case on BCCI when Pawar's team sold TV rights for the last home series?? Sure Pawar is a politician. He made a damn career in politics!!! But what is JD? Are you saying JD never ever played politics while serving indian cricket? If yes, you are naive. If no, JD and Pawar are just the same. No difference. Pawar is as good or bad as JD is. Sure JD earned lot of money ofr Indian cricket. But the way BCCI is going, Pawar's team will earn 10 times of what JD earned.


In the 3 series prior to the Aus series SG averaged 125, 47 & 77. And then he suddenly becomes a spent force?

Okay, time to deal with SG. It is my opinion that SG's downward slide began after 2003 WC. SG has played 50 ODIs since WC 2003 till Sep 2005. Let me first compare SG to other Indian players in their ODIs played during the same time duration:

Player      Inng   Avg.   100s   50s   Runs   Car. Avg.
---------------------------------------------------
Dravid      51     40.95    2      18    1884    40.20
Sehwag    56     29.44    2       8    1649    32.45
Yuvraj      53     32.81    4       6    1575    35.26
Sachin     34     44.46    4       7     1423    44.20
Kaif         46     40.51    1      10    1418    33.00
Ganguly   49     30.50    0       10    1403    40.65
---------------------------------------------------

1. SG has the lowest Avg. among all, since WC 2003 and has scored least number of runs.
2. SRT and Kaif have played less number of ODIs than SG na d have yet scored more runs at a better Avg.
3. SG is the only one who has a huge, 10 run, drop from his career Avg. VS and YS too have a drop, but it is only of 2.5-3 runs.
4. Every player, except SG, has scored at least 1 century.
5. Kaif and Yuvraj usually bat below SG. Yet they have performed better than him.
6. VS had 1 run less Avg. than SG. But we all know that VS is in the team to provide explosive opening. And he has 2 centuries and 8 fifties to show for that.

Now, let me break SG's Avg. over last 50 ODIs into batch to 10:

Last 50 ODIs - 30.50
Last 40 ODIs - 26.07
Last 30 ODIs - 29.07
Last 20 ODIs - 27.05
Last 10 ODIs - 19.77

A progressive downfall in Avg. in his last 50 ODIs. There is a slight improvement between last 40 and 30 ODIs, but other than that, a progressive downfall which becomes acute in last 10 ODIs.


Now, come to Tests. If SRT is playing, our test batting will look like: VS, WJ, RD, SRT, VVS, YS (if playing 4 bowlers), MSD, AK, HS, IP, MP -- SS/AA/RPS (if playing 5 bowlerS)

In this scenario, SG has competition with VVS and YS. I will not be ridiculous and say replace WJ with SG as opener. Okay, since Jan-1-2005 let us compare SG, VVSL, YS:

Player      Inng   Avg.   100s   50s   Runs   Car. Avg.
---------------------------------------------------
Laxman     17     46.14   2       4      646      42.70
Yuvraj        9     45.00   1       2      360      33.20
Ganguly    12     26.66   1         0       320      40.78
---------------------------------------------------

Again, Ganguly has lowest number of runs, lowest Avg. Everyone has improved on their career Avg. except Ganguly. There is 14 run drop in his Avg. During this time, IND played PAK, ZIM and SL. All kind of teams (Good, Avg, minnow)

Let us see comparitive Test figures from Jan-1-2004. 2 years is a good indication of form:

Player      Inng   Avg.   100s   50s   Runs   Car. Avg.
---------------------------------------------------
Laxman     33     38.63   3       6     1159      42.70
Ganguly    21     34.66   1         4      728       40.78
Yuvraj       17     42.46   2       3      637      33.20
---------------------------------------------------

In 1 year, from 2004 to 2005, SG suffered a 8 run drop in Avg. Over 2 years, YS still has better Avg. than SG. To me, it looks pretty clear that SG would not have been selected over VVS or YS in Tests.

Good post ruchir!

It doesn't require much to show that SG's average was on a drop in the last 2 years. But then, he hardly played regularly.
I believe, he can add a lot of value to this Indian team.
My only concern is abt GC...hope he spares himself for some cricket coaching when he gets done with all the 'hide & seek' and assorted management games!
This guy is more on hype then substance!
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achutank

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2006, 04:02:25 PM »

In the 3 series prior to the Aus series SG averaged 125, 47 & 77. And then he suddenly becomes a spent force?

Okay, time to deal with SG. It is my opinion that SG's downward slide began after 2003 WC. SG has played 50 ODIs since WC 2003 till Sep 2005. Let me first compare SG to other Indian players in their ODIs played during the same time duration:

Player      Inng   Avg.   100s   50s   Runs   Car. Avg.
---------------------------------------------------
Dravid      51     40.95    2      18    1884    40.20
Sehwag    56     29.44    2       8    1649    32.45
Yuvraj      53     32.81    4       6    1575    35.26
Sachin     34     44.46    4       7     1423    44.20
Kaif         46     40.51    1      10    1418    33.00
Ganguly   49     30.50    0       10    1403    40.65
---------------------------------------------------


we have all been through the stats ruchir and we know the story of the great downfall. point is is stats the only story or one has to see track records of people over a four year time and the willingness of body and spirit to carry on in the same vein. i would like to know your take on why we persisited with VS thorugh a lean patch through out this year till he showed his magic again in WI.
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jaat69

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2006, 04:04:48 PM »

that too an ordinary, disintegrated WI!
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Aloo Kashmiri Ul Haq

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2006, 04:16:11 PM »

ruchir you said "1. SG has the lowest Avg. among all, since WC 2003 and has scored least number of runs."

look at your own stats, SG doesn't have the lowest average
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ruchir

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2006, 04:18:36 PM »

we have all been through the stats ruchir and we know the story of the great downfall. point is is stats the only story or one has to see track records of people over a four year time and the willingness of body and spirit to carry on in the same vein. i would like to know your take on why we persisited with VS thorugh a lean patch through out this year till he showed his magic again in WI.

ACHUTANK - What would you say about a player, XYZ, who shows steady downfall over a 2 year period? I want to know your thoughts on what is the time frame that should be given to a player to show that he can recover his form.

I feel 2 years is too long a time to be given to anyone. SG got more than that. If SG could not get his ODI form back in 2 years, who can give a guarantee that he would be able to do so after that? Mathematically, chances of him failing are much more than him succeeding.

As for Sehwag, he was dropped from the team towards the end of ENG ODI series. He was also not played in the first ODI against PAK in UAE. So, it is not like Sehwag was never dropped or he never felt threatened. But nothing of this sort ever ever happened with SG. Till SG was the captain, he played every match (unless injured) irrespective of his form. He got dropped only when he played as a simple player.
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ruchir

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2006, 04:19:43 PM »

ruchir you said "1. SG has the lowest Avg. among all, since WC 2003 and has scored least number of runs."

look at your own stats, SG doesn't have the lowest average

I stand corrected..... he has the 2nd lowest Avg. I mis-typed....
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ramshorns

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2006, 04:41:14 PM »

In the 3 series prior to the Aus series SG averaged 125, 47 & 77. And then he suddenly becomes a spent force? This is exactly the problem in the SG issue, some people's sheer lethargy to think for themselves, while happily repeating lies fed to them by the media like Crockinfo and the English language newspapers (who hire experts based on their ability to bash Ganguly).

India had just won a series in Pakistan against Pakistan. There was no reason for Ganguly to step down. The rot started with India losing to Aus thanks to the VCA and the traitor curator, and the subsequent hounding of Ganguly for "chickening out", reducing his reputation to tatters. Let me put it bluntly, it was nothing but a power struggle between the now ruling body and Dalmiya, a great man under whom Indian cricket reached it's zenith. These Mir Jafars had no qualms in stabbing Indian cricket in the back, as long as it served their petty ends.

The real cancers are the current ruling body, who will take Indian cricket down the drain.

Excellent rhetoric.... good for getting lot of applauses, but nothing more than that. Your post is good in bashing but it does so without any content. I wish you had provided some content in backing your allegations. It would have made better reading.


The real cancers are the current ruling body, who will take Indian cricket down the drain.

Exactly how is the new Admin taking the Indian cricket down the drain? BCCI is and will be earning manyfold more money that what it was under JD and RSM. New Admin has increased salaries of Umpires. It is taking concrete steps towards getting a web site, which previous Admin never thought about. How exactly are you coming to a conclusion that the new Admin is taking Indian cricket down the drain?? Sure, any Admin has problems and issues. This one has too, just like the previous one had. Show me something that this Admin has done, that previous Admin did not do? Actually, I would like to know your definition of - going down the drain. What exactly do you mean by that?? Please explain.


Dalmiya, a great man under whom Indian cricket reached it's zenith.

Oh yeah. Definetly a great man. The same great man who removed SG from captaincy, right? Was that the zenith of Indian cricket in your eyes? Was it the zenith when RSM was the elections because JD casted 2 votes himself and a person from opposition was not allowed to vote? What a great man!!! Under JD, BCCI was spending about 3-4% of its earnings on improving the game's infrastructure. Most of it was being spent on meetings in 5-star hotels, bills of honorary members, court cases etc. Remaining was deposited in bank. That surely was the Zenith of Indian cricket. Before every series there would be court cases on BCCI for TV rights. Was there any court case on BCCI when Pawar's team sold TV rights for the last home series?? Sure Pawar is a politician. He made a damn career in politics!!! But what is JD? Are you saying JD never ever played politics while serving indian cricket? If yes, you are naive. If no, JD and Pawar are just the same. No difference. Pawar is as good or bad as JD is. Sure JD earned lot of money ofr Indian cricket. But the way BCCI is going, Pawar's team will earn 10 times of what JD earned.


In the 3 series prior to the Aus series SG averaged 125, 47 & 77. And then he suddenly becomes a spent force?

Okay, time to deal with SG. It is my opinion that SG's downward slide began after 2003 WC. SG has played 50 ODIs since WC 2003 till Sep 2005. Let me first compare SG to other Indian players in their ODIs played during the same time duration:

Player      Inng   Avg.   100s   50s   Runs   Car. Avg.
---------------------------------------------------
Dravid      51     40.95    2      18    1884    40.20
Sehwag    56     29.44    2       8    1649    32.45
Yuvraj      53     32.81    4       6    1575    35.26
Sachin     34     44.46    4       7     1423    44.20
Kaif         46     40.51    1      10    1418    33.00
Ganguly   49     30.50    0       10    1403    40.65
---------------------------------------------------

1. SG has the lowest Avg. among all, since WC 2003 and has scored least number of runs.
2. SRT and Kaif have played less number of ODIs than SG na d have yet scored more runs at a better Avg.
3. SG is the only one who has a huge, 10 run, drop from his career Avg. VS and YS too have a drop, but it is only of 2.5-3 runs.
4. Every player, except SG, has scored at least 1 century.
5. Kaif and Yuvraj usually bat below SG. Yet they have performed better than him.
6. VS had 1 run less Avg. than SG. But we all know that VS is in the team to provide explosive opening. And he has 2 centuries and 8 fifties to show for that.

Now, let me break SG's Avg. over last 50 ODIs into batch to 10:

Last 50 ODIs - 30.50
Last 40 ODIs - 26.07
Last 30 ODIs - 29.07
Last 20 ODIs - 27.05
Last 10 ODIs - 19.77

A progressive downfall in Avg. in his last 50 ODIs. There is a slight improvement between last 40 and 30 ODIs, but other than that, a progressive downfall which becomes acute in last 10 ODIs.


Now, come to Tests. If SRT is playing, our test batting will look like: VS, WJ, RD, SRT, VVS, YS (if playing 4 bowlers), MSD, AK, HS, IP, MP -- SS/AA/RPS (if playing 5 bowlerS)

In this scenario, SG has competition with VVS and YS. I will not be ridiculous and say replace WJ with SG as opener. Okay, since Jan-1-2005 let us compare SG, VVSL, YS:

Player      Inng   Avg.   100s   50s   Runs   Car. Avg.
---------------------------------------------------
Laxman     17     46.14   2       4      646      42.70
Yuvraj        9     45.00   1       2      360      33.20
Ganguly    12     26.66   1         0       320      40.78
---------------------------------------------------

Again, Ganguly has lowest number of runs, lowest Avg. Everyone has improved on their career Avg. except Ganguly. There is 14 run drop in his Avg. During this time, IND played PAK, ZIM and SL. All kind of teams (Good, Avg, minnow)

Let us see comparitive Test figures from Jan-1-2004. 2 years is a good indication of form:

Player      Inng   Avg.   100s   50s   Runs   Car. Avg.
---------------------------------------------------
Laxman     33     38.63   3       6     1159      42.70
Ganguly    21     34.66   1         4      728       40.78
Yuvraj       17     42.46   2       3      637      33.20
---------------------------------------------------

In 1 year, from 2004 to 2005, SG suffered a 8 run drop in Avg. Over 2 years, YS still has better Avg. than SG. To me, it looks pretty clear that SG would not have been selected over VVS or YS in Tests.
Good rebuttal Ruchir.  Applause.

Again if I can add a comment to this.  All these figures have been well analysed in multiple threads before.  If SG thought his case was such a slam dunk then he would not have recently said
"All I have to do now is score runs in domestic tournaments".  So that statement says a lot.
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flute202020

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2006, 04:43:47 PM »

In the 3 series prior to the Aus series SG averaged 125, 47 & 77. And then he suddenly becomes a spent force? This is exactly the problem in the SG issue, some people's sheer lethargy to think for themselves, while happily repeating lies fed to them by the media like Crockinfo and the English language newspapers (who hire experts based on their ability to bash Ganguly).

India had just won a series in Pakistan against Pakistan. There was no reason for Ganguly to step down. The rot started with India losing to Aus thanks to the VCA and the traitor curator, and the subsequent hounding of Ganguly for "chickening out", reducing his reputation to tatters. Let me put it bluntly, it was nothing but a power struggle between the now ruling body and Dalmiya, a great man under whom Indian cricket reached it's zenith. These Mir Jafars had no qualms in stabbing Indian cricket in the back, as long as it served their petty ends.

The real cancers are the current ruling body, who will take Indian cricket down the drain.

Excellent rhetoric.... good for getting lot of applauses, but nothing more than that. Your post is good in bashing but it does so without any content. I wish you had provided some content in backing your allegations. It would have made better reading.


The real cancers are the current ruling body, who will take Indian cricket down the drain.

Exactly how is the new Admin taking the Indian cricket down the drain? BCCI is and will be earning manyfold more money that what it was under JD and RSM. New Admin has increased salaries of Umpires. It is taking concrete steps towards getting a web site, which previous Admin never thought about. How exactly are you coming to a conclusion that the new Admin is taking Indian cricket down the drain?? Sure, any Admin has problems and issues. This one has too, just like the previous one had. Show me something that this Admin has done, that previous Admin did not do? Actually, I would like to know your definition of - going down the drain. What exactly do you mean by that?? Please explain.


Dalmiya, a great man under whom Indian cricket reached it's zenith.

Oh yeah. Definetly a great man. The same great man who removed SG from captaincy, right? Was that the zenith of Indian cricket in your eyes? Was it the zenith when RSM was the elections because JD casted 2 votes himself and a person from opposition was not allowed to vote? What a great man!!! Under JD, BCCI was spending about 3-4% of its earnings on improving the game's infrastructure. Most of it was being spent on meetings in 5-star hotels, bills of honorary members, court cases etc. Remaining was deposited in bank. That surely was the Zenith of Indian cricket. Before every series there would be court cases on BCCI for TV rights. Was there any court case on BCCI when Pawar's team sold TV rights for the last home series?? Sure Pawar is a politician. He made a damn career in politics!!! But what is JD? Are you saying JD never ever played politics while serving indian cricket? If yes, you are naive. If no, JD and Pawar are just the same. No difference. Pawar is as good or bad as JD is. Sure JD earned lot of money ofr Indian cricket. But the way BCCI is going, Pawar's team will earn 10 times of what JD earned.


In the 3 series prior to the Aus series SG averaged 125, 47 & 77. And then he suddenly becomes a spent force?

Okay, time to deal with SG. It is my opinion that SG's downward slide began after 2003 WC. SG has played 50 ODIs since WC 2003 till Sep 2005. Let me first compare SG to other Indian players in their ODIs played during the same time duration:

Player      Inng   Avg.   100s   50s   Runs   Car. Avg.
---------------------------------------------------
Dravid      51     40.95    2      18    1884    40.20
Sehwag    56     29.44    2       8    1649    32.45
Yuvraj      53     32.81    4       6    1575    35.26
Sachin     34     44.46    4       7     1423    44.20
Kaif         46     40.51    1      10    1418    33.00
Ganguly   49     30.50    0       10    1403    40.65
---------------------------------------------------

1. SG has the lowest Avg. among all, since WC 2003 and has scored least number of runs.
2. SRT and Kaif have played less number of ODIs than SG na d have yet scored more runs at a better Avg.
3. SG is the only one who has a huge, 10 run, drop from his career Avg. VS and YS too have a drop, but it is only of 2.5-3 runs.
4. Every player, except SG, has scored at least 1 century.
5. Kaif and Yuvraj usually bat below SG. Yet they have performed better than him.
6. VS had 1 run less Avg. than SG. But we all know that VS is in the team to provide explosive opening. And he has 2 centuries and 8 fifties to show for that.

Now, let me break SG's Avg. over last 50 ODIs into batch to 10:

Last 50 ODIs - 30.50
Last 40 ODIs - 26.07
Last 30 ODIs - 29.07
Last 20 ODIs - 27.05
Last 10 ODIs - 19.77

A progressive downfall in Avg. in his last 50 ODIs. There is a slight improvement between last 40 and 30 ODIs, but other than that, a progressive downfall which becomes acute in last 10 ODIs.


Now, come to Tests. If SRT is playing, our test batting will look like: VS, WJ, RD, SRT, VVS, YS (if playing 4 bowlers), MSD, AK, HS, IP, MP -- SS/AA/RPS (if playing 5 bowlerS)

In this scenario, SG has competition with VVS and YS. I will not be ridiculous and say replace WJ with SG as opener. Okay, since Jan-1-2005 let us compare SG, VVSL, YS:

Player      Inng   Avg.   100s   50s   Runs   Car. Avg.
---------------------------------------------------
Laxman     17     46.14   2       4      646      42.70
Yuvraj        9     45.00   1       2      360      33.20
Ganguly    12     26.66   1         0       320      40.78
---------------------------------------------------

Again, Ganguly has lowest number of runs, lowest Avg. Everyone has improved on their career Avg. except Ganguly. There is 14 run drop in his Avg. During this time, IND played PAK, ZIM and SL. All kind of teams (Good, Avg, minnow)

Let us see comparitive Test figures from Jan-1-2004. 2 years is a good indication of form:

Player      Inng   Avg.   100s   50s   Runs   Car. Avg.
---------------------------------------------------
Laxman     33     38.63   3       6     1159      42.70
Ganguly    21     34.66   1         4      728       40.78
Yuvraj       17     42.46   2       3      637      33.20
---------------------------------------------------

In 1 year, from 2004 to 2005, SG suffered a 8 run drop in Avg. Over 2 years, YS still has better Avg. than SG. To me, it looks pretty clear that SG would not have been selected over VVS or YS in Tests.
Good rebuttal Ruchir.  Applause.

Again if I can add a comment to this.  All these figures have been well analysed in multiple threads before.  If SG thought his case was such a slam dunk then he would not have recently said
"All I have to do now is score runs in domestic tournaments".  So that statement says a lot.
yep, as ruchir clearly showed, there is steady decline. no amount of blaming media based conspiracy can hide it.
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LosingNow

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2006, 05:01:57 PM »

Again if I can add a comment to this.  All these figures have been well analysed in multiple threads before.  If SG thought his case was such a slam dunk then he would not have recently said
"All I have to do now is score runs in domestic tournaments".  So that statement says a lot.

Once again Rams getting to the crux like a laser! Applause.
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dhruvdeepak

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2006, 05:04:39 PM »

looks like we are back at it again....
we can glorify him all we want. then we can beat him down to size as many times as we like. what's the difference - SG has to score (who cares if he is between a rock and a hard place and might not get chosen anyway - if he has to score, he has to score. otherwise he is not proving anything and the way we keep glorifying his dropping and countering with more rhetoric....c'mon how many times do we need to do this). if he doesnt score, game over - we should move on. no, instead, it is time (yet again) to spew anger at everyone incl Pawar, RD, GC. Then we rally and support RD, GC etc. What a tiring cycle.
Honestly, we are all masters degree students on Sg, GC, RD. They have been dissected, insulted, glorified and villified ad nauseam. how about moving on to more pertinent discussions, at least until SG makes a claim for a spot in the Indian team (something he has not done).
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In the attitude of silence the soul finds the path in a clearer light, and what is elusive and deceptive resolves itself into crystal clearness. Our life is a long and arduous quest after Truth.
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flute202020

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2006, 05:06:51 PM »

looks like we are back at it again....
we can glorify him all we want. then we can beat him down to size as many times as we like. what's the difference - SG has to score (who cares if he is between a rock and a hard place and might not get chosen anyway - if he has to score, he has to score. otherwise he is not proving anything and the way we keep glorifying his dropping and countering with more rhetoric....c'mon how many times do we need to do this). if he doesnt score, game over - we should move on. no, instead, it is time (yet again) to spew anger at everyone incl Pawar, RD, GC. Then we rally and support RD, GC etc. What a tiring cycle.
Honestly, we are all masters degree students on Sg, GC, RD. They have been dissected, insulted, glorified and villified ad nauseam. how about moving on to more pertinent discussions, at least until SG makes a claim for a spot in the Indian team (something he has not done).
DD, very well said, SO, do you think  SG doesn't deserve a spot right now in ODIs? why?  :)
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LosingNow

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2006, 05:10:51 PM »

no amount of blaming media based conspiracy can hide it.
As if media had the power to make change happen in Indian cricket and its administration. Has anyone seen, how the the cricket administration treats the media - like dirt (and I am being charitable here and of course, I am not advocating that they be treated like that - no one should be treated like this, IMHO). Wouldnt you think that if they had the power, they would get better treatment.

Applause Flute.
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LosingNow

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2006, 05:20:34 PM »

Honestly, we are all masters degree students on Sg, GC, RD. They have been dissected, insulted, glorified and villified ad nauseam. how about moving on to more pertinent discussions, at least until SG makes a claim for a spot in the Indian team (something he has not done).
Well said, my man! Your 12 hrs are not up, yet.

Frankly this degree is a useless piece of paper...it has zero value in real life and even in enhancing one's knowledge/perception of human behavior.

The story here - a wronged-failing hero, a powerless & shocked hero-worshipping fan base going through the denial -> anger -> depression ->blame -> acceptance cycle of recovery while life goes on and in most cases improves -  has been repeated many times in real-life and fiction.     
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jaat69

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2006, 05:23:11 PM »

we have all been through the stats ruchir and we know the story of the great downfall. point is is stats the only story or one has to see track records of people over a four year time and the willingness of body and spirit to carry on in the same vein. i would like to know your take on why we persisited with VS thorugh a lean patch through out this year till he showed his magic again in WI.

ACHUTANK - What would you say about a player, XYZ, who shows steady downfall over a 2 year period? I want to know your thoughts on what is the time frame that should be given to a player to show that he can recover his form.

I feel 2 years is too long a time to be given to anyone. SG got more than that. If SG could not get his ODI form back in 2 years, who can give a guarantee that he would be able to do so after that? Mathematically, chances of him failing are much more than him succeeding.

As for Sehwag, he was dropped from the team towards the end of ENG ODI series. He was also not played in the first ODI against PAK in UAE. So, it is not like Sehwag was never dropped or he never felt threatened. But nothing of this sort ever ever happened with SG. Till SG was the captain, he played every match (unless injured) irrespective of his form. He got dropped only when he played as a simple player.


And he was never allowed to get back his form and natural rhythm.
This is some way of destroying a glorious career!
I only wish SG gets back and brings some life into this GC-11!
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jaat69

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2006, 05:30:44 PM »

looks like we are back at it again....
we can glorify him all we want. then we can beat him down to size as many times as we like. what's the difference - SG has to score (who cares if he is between a rock and a hard place and might not get chosen anyway - if he has to score, he has to score. otherwise he is not proving anything and the way we keep glorifying his dropping and countering with more rhetoric....c'mon how many times do we need to do this). if he doesnt score, game over - we should move on. no, instead, it is time (yet again) to spew anger at everyone incl Pawar, RD, GC. Then we rally and support RD, GC etc. What a tiring cycle.
Honestly, we are all masters degree students on Sg, GC, RD. They have been dissected, insulted, glorified and villified ad nauseam. how about moving on to more pertinent discussions, at least until SG makes a claim for a spot in the Indian team (something he has not done).

Yes, who disagrees that he needs to score?!
But he needs to be given a decent chance.
Can those deriding SG here with stats or those celebrating his downfall find out a way by which he can be given justice?
No!
It is easy to criticize and be judgemental. That is the easiest part of the job.
To create a legacy takes some doing! Try to do justice with a person who has created a legacy. Any Tom, Dick & Harry can produce some dry stats from Cricinfo to deride a player........where is the genius involved? ;D
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flute202020

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #55 on: August 02, 2006, 05:32:26 PM »

looks like we are back at it again....
we can glorify him all we want. then we can beat him down to size as many times as we like. what's the difference - SG has to score (who cares if he is between a rock and a hard place and might not get chosen anyway - if he has to score, he has to score. otherwise he is not proving anything and the way we keep glorifying his dropping and countering with more rhetoric....c'mon how many times do we need to do this). if he doesnt score, game over - we should move on. no, instead, it is time (yet again) to spew anger at everyone incl Pawar, RD, GC. Then we rally and support RD, GC etc. What a tiring cycle.
Honestly, we are all masters degree students on Sg, GC, RD. They have been dissected, insulted, glorified and villified ad nauseam. how about moving on to more pertinent discussions, at least until SG makes a claim for a spot in the Indian team (something he has not done).

Yes, who disagrees that he needs to score?!
But he needs to be given a decent chance.
Can those deriding SG here with stats or those celebrating his downfall find out a way by which he can be given justice?
No!
It is easy to criticize and be judgemental. That is the easiest part of the job.
To create a legacy takes some doing! Try to do justice with a person who has created a legacy. Any Tom, Dick & Harry can produce some dry stats from Cricinfo to deride a player........where is the genius involved? ;D
it works both ways my friend. every tom dick and harry can "eulogise" a player, "genius" is still missing :)
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dhruvdeepak

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #56 on: August 02, 2006, 05:34:33 PM »

we have all been through the stats ruchir and we know the story of the great downfall. point is is stats the only story or one has to see track records of people over a four year time and the willingness of body and spirit to carry on in the same vein. i would like to know your take on why we persisited with VS thorugh a lean patch through out this year till he showed his magic again in WI.

ACHUTANK - What would you say about a player, XYZ, who shows steady downfall over a 2 year period? I want to know your thoughts on what is the time frame that should be given to a player to show that he can recover his form.

I feel 2 years is too long a time to be given to anyone. SG got more than that. If SG could not get his ODI form back in 2 years, who can give a guarantee that he would be able to do so after that? Mathematically, chances of him failing are much more than him succeeding.

As for Sehwag, he was dropped from the team towards the end of ENG ODI series. He was also not played in the first ODI against PAK in UAE. So, it is not like Sehwag was never dropped or he never felt threatened. But nothing of this sort ever ever happened with SG. Till SG was the captain, he played every match (unless injured) irrespective of his form. He got dropped only when he played as a simple player.

And he was never allowed to get back his form and natural rhythm.
This is some way of destroying a glorious career!
I only wish SG gets back and brings some life into this GC-11!

Quote
Yes, who disagrees that he needs to score?!
But he needs to be given a decent chance.
Can those deriding SG here with stats or those celebrating his downfall find out a way by which he can be given justice?
No!
It is easy to criticize and be judgemental. That is the easiest part of the job.
To create a legacy takes some doing! Try to do justice with a person who has created a legacy. Any Tom, Dick & Harry can produce some dry stats from Cricinfo to deride a player........where is the genius involved? Grin

boo hoo and blah blah blah. i refuse to get into this rubbish. it does SG more disservice.
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In the attitude of silence the soul finds the path in a clearer light, and what is elusive and deceptive resolves itself into crystal clearness. Our life is a long and arduous quest after Truth.
-- Mohandas K *hi

jaat69

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #57 on: August 02, 2006, 05:35:08 PM »

looks like we are back at it again....
we can glorify him all we want. then we can beat him down to size as many times as we like. what's the difference - SG has to score (who cares if he is between a rock and a hard place and might not get chosen anyway - if he has to score, he has to score. otherwise he is not proving anything and the way we keep glorifying his dropping and countering with more rhetoric....c'mon how many times do we need to do this). if he doesnt score, game over - we should move on. no, instead, it is time (yet again) to spew anger at everyone incl Pawar, RD, GC. Then we rally and support RD, GC etc. What a tiring cycle.
Honestly, we are all masters degree students on Sg, GC, RD. They have been dissected, insulted, glorified and villified ad nauseam. how about moving on to more pertinent discussions, at least until SG makes a claim for a spot in the Indian team (something he has not done).

Yes, who disagrees that he needs to score?!
But he needs to be given a decent chance.
Can those deriding SG here with stats or those celebrating his downfall find out a way by which he can be given justice?
No!
It is easy to criticize and be judgemental. That is the easiest part of the job.
To create a legacy takes some doing! Try to do justice with a person who has created a legacy. Any Tom, Dick & Harry can produce some dry stats from Cricinfo to deride a player........where is the genius involved? ;D
it works both ways my friend. every tom dick and harry can "eulogise" a player, "genius" is still missing :)

But you have overlooked!..I am used to your street -smart comments anyway.
Where did I claim any genius at all, unlike your band of back-slapping brothers?
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jaat69

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #58 on: August 02, 2006, 05:36:27 PM »

we have all been through the stats ruchir and we know the story of the great downfall. point is is stats the only story or one has to see track records of people over a four year time and the willingness of body and spirit to carry on in the same vein. i would like to know your take on why we persisited with VS thorugh a lean patch through out this year till he showed his magic again in WI.

ACHUTANK - What would you say about a player, XYZ, who shows steady downfall over a 2 year period? I want to know your thoughts on what is the time frame that should be given to a player to show that he can recover his form.

I feel 2 years is too long a time to be given to anyone. SG got more than that. If SG could not get his ODI form back in 2 years, who can give a guarantee that he would be able to do so after that? Mathematically, chances of him failing are much more than him succeeding.

As for Sehwag, he was dropped from the team towards the end of ENG ODI series. He was also not played in the first ODI against PAK in UAE. So, it is not like Sehwag was never dropped or he never felt threatened. But nothing of this sort ever ever happened with SG. Till SG was the captain, he played every match (unless injured) irrespective of his form. He got dropped only when he played as a simple player.

And he was never allowed to get back his form and natural rhythm.
This is some way of destroying a glorious career!
I only wish SG gets back and brings some life into this GC-11!

Quote
Yes, who disagrees that he needs to score?!
But he needs to be given a decent chance.
Can those deriding SG here with stats or those celebrating his downfall find out a way by which he can be given justice?
No!
It is easy to criticize and be judgemental. That is the easiest part of the job.
To create a legacy takes some doing! Try to do justice with a person who has created a legacy. Any Tom, Dick & Harry can produce some dry stats from Cricinfo to deride a player........where is the genius involved? Grin

boo hoo and blah blah blah. i refuse to get into this rubbish. it does SG more disservice.

who is forcing you anyway?
pick out some other thread! ;D
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flute202020

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #59 on: August 02, 2006, 05:41:39 PM »

looks like we are back at it again....
we can glorify him all we want. then we can beat him down to size as many times as we like. what's the difference - SG has to score (who cares if he is between a rock and a hard place and might not get chosen anyway - if he has to score, he has to score. otherwise he is not proving anything and the way we keep glorifying his dropping and countering with more rhetoric....c'mon how many times do we need to do this). if he doesnt score, game over - we should move on. no, instead, it is time (yet again) to spew anger at everyone incl Pawar, RD, GC. Then we rally and support RD, GC etc. What a tiring cycle.
Honestly, we are all masters degree students on Sg, GC, RD. They have been dissected, insulted, glorified and villified ad nauseam. how about moving on to more pertinent discussions, at least until SG makes a claim for a spot in the Indian team (something he has not done).

Yes, who disagrees that he needs to score?!
But he needs to be given a decent chance.
Can those deriding SG here with stats or those celebrating his downfall find out a way by which he can be given justice?
No!
It is easy to criticize and be judgemental. That is the easiest part of the job.
To create a legacy takes some doing! Try to do justice with a person who has created a legacy. Any Tom, Dick & Harry can produce some dry stats from Cricinfo to deride a player........where is the genius involved? ;D
it works both ways my friend. every tom dick and harry can "eulogise" a player, "genius" is still missing :)

But you have overlooked!..I am used to your street -smart comments anyway.
Where did I claim any genius at all, unlike your band of back-slapping brothers?
where did I claim that you claimed genius?  :)
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jaat69

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #60 on: August 02, 2006, 05:43:56 PM »

"genius" is still missing :)


here you claimed that I claimed genius! ;D
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ramshorns

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #61 on: August 02, 2006, 05:44:09 PM »

looks like we are back at it again....
we can glorify him all we want. then we can beat him down to size as many times as we like. what's the difference - SG has to score (who cares if he is between a rock and a hard place and might not get chosen anyway - if he has to score, he has to score. otherwise he is not proving anything and the way we keep glorifying his dropping and countering with more rhetoric....c'mon how many times do we need to do this). if he doesnt score, game over - we should move on. no, instead, it is time (yet again) to spew anger at everyone incl Pawar, RD, GC. Then we rally and support RD, GC etc. What a tiring cycle.
Honestly, we are all masters degree students on Sg, GC, RD. They have been dissected, insulted, glorified and villified ad nauseam. how about moving on to more pertinent discussions, at least until SG makes a claim for a spot in the Indian team (something he has not done).

Yes, who disagrees that he needs to score?!
But he needs to be given a decent chance.
Can those deriding SG here with stats or those celebrating his downfall find out a way by which he can be given justice?
No!
It is easy to criticize and be judgemental. That is the easiest part of the job.
To create a legacy takes some doing! Try to do justice with a person who has created a legacy. Any Tom, Dick & Harry can produce some dry stats from Cricinfo to deride a player........where is the genius involved? ;D
Then everyone is in agreement if the one highlighted in bold is your take.

If you track your way back in this thread you will know who started getting the dry stats from CRICINFO and make a point. 

Look when it is all said and done no one can take away what SG has accomplished on the cricket field.  YES 15000 runs :D :D(No pun intended or a reference to the famous line on this DG "I have 15000 runs under my belt"). 
Also add to that he was a successful captain for 5 years.  So unless someone wants to make a fool of themselves no one would dare to demean SG's feats.


« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 05:50:11 PM by ramshorns »
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Cover Point

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #62 on: August 02, 2006, 05:45:44 PM »

Losing wa gracious enough to let the attack by Mr Wipro Ravi go .... but I would still ask anyone to please find a thread where any of us people named have claimed that SG was crap always and we never appreciated the good things he did? If you cant find them then accept that you are a lying weasel!

Jaat has to be ignored as usual. If someone else had continued to bash the question of giving him a chance etc etc I would have been forced to point out that until Sep 05 Ganguly pretty much played non stop! (unless injured). His performance for MUCH longer (as Ruchir so elequently posts) was really down. He was clearly the worst player in the MO since atleast 2004.

Ofcourse none of this needs to be said to Jaat.
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flute202020

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #63 on: August 02, 2006, 05:48:19 PM »

"genius" is still missing :)


here you claimed that I claimed genius! ;D

you got the sequence of claims wrong..back track,read from post #1 and then tell me who claimed what
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jaat69

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #64 on: August 02, 2006, 05:51:36 PM »

looks like we are back at it again....
we can glorify him all we want. then we can beat him down to size as many times as we like. what's the difference - SG has to score (who cares if he is between a rock and a hard place and might not get chosen anyway - if he has to score, he has to score. otherwise he is not proving anything and the way we keep glorifying his dropping and countering with more rhetoric....c'mon how many times do we need to do this). if he doesnt score, game over - we should move on. no, instead, it is time (yet again) to spew anger at everyone incl Pawar, RD, GC. Then we rally and support RD, GC etc. What a tiring cycle.
Honestly, we are all masters degree students on Sg, GC, RD. They have been dissected, insulted, glorified and villified ad nauseam. how about moving on to more pertinent discussions, at least until SG makes a claim for a spot in the Indian team (something he has not done).

Yes, who disagrees that he needs to score?!
But he needs to be given a decent chance.
Can those deriding SG here with stats or those celebrating his downfall find out a way by which he can be given justice?
No!
It is easy to criticize and be judgemental. That is the easiest part of the job.
To create a legacy takes some doing! Try to do justice with a person who has created a legacy. Any Tom, Dick & Harry can produce some dry stats from Cricinfo to deride a player........where is the genius involved? ;D
If you track your way back in this thread you will know who started getting the dry stats from CRICINFO and make a point. 

Look when it is all said and done no one can take away what SG has accomplished on the cricket field.  YES 15000 runs :D :D(No pun intended or a reference to the famous line on this DG "I have 15000 runs under my belt"). 
Also add to that he was a successful captain for 5 years.  So unless someone wants to make a fool of themselves no one would dare do demean SG's feats.

Quote
Yes, who disagrees that he needs to score?
Quote
Then we are in agreement. :D :D


Yes, Ramshorn, we are in agreement in letter.
But in spirit, I come across people here who are celebrating SG's downfall and deriding his last 2 years performances. Personally I find this attitude distressing. I have never done it with any other player, leave alone an Indian player. So what, if I find RD boring and uninspiring and GC like a demented uncle, I always kept my personal opinions to myself.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 05:59:06 PM by jaat69 »
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jaat69

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #65 on: August 02, 2006, 05:57:33 PM »

"genius" is still missing :)


here you claimed that I claimed genius! ;D

you got the sequence of claims wrong..back track,read from post #1 and then tell me who claimed what
Not needed....I have limited my scope here. Past sequences and claims can take the back-seat. I am answerable only abt my posts.

btw...just off-hand......I wish, RD cheers up a bit! Why does he always look as if he is suffering from acidity and digestion problem? :(
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kban1

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #66 on: August 02, 2006, 06:02:56 PM »


Quote
yep, it is all some vicious media created , deep conspiracy, probably CIA & ISI too are involved. SG was going great guns, only for the media to step in and spread a smokescreen of bad form. People who think SG is out form are all fools who got conned into believing that SG is out of form.
gimme a break.

I already have – I recognize rants, so no comments

Quote
SG's stats and performance have been discussed at much length on this DG. To think it is all media created and people on this DG are all somehow conned into thinking that he is out of form is just stretching it too far. Below is SG's avg. since 2000. Of the 16 series(non minnows only) from 200, he contributed effectively only in 5 series. Any other player would have been dropped long long back. A combination of hype as a main player and Dalmiya's support ensured his long run. If not, SG was a great captain and a great ODI player, but only a average test player.


Let us analyze this nice list of dry stats from Cricinfo a little better.

Quote
Sri Lanka in India, 2005/06 [Series]
               Ind     2    84  40   28.00   0   0   0   -       -    0   1  0
India in Pakistan, 2005/06 [Series]
               Pak     2    71  37   35.50   0   0   1  1/68   91.00  0   1  0

Irrelevant series above – by this time SG inclusions were against the will of GC / More either through Pawar intervention or because other selectors outvoted KM. No extended run was provided to SG – he played 2 tests (excluding the washed out Chennai test where we were bowled out for 169) spread over 6 tests.. This is called padding up statistics.


1)
Quote
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Aus/Ind) in India, 2000/01 [Series]
               Ind     3   106  48   17.66   0   0   1  1/44   65.00  0   4  0

SG did not perform -- accepted

2)
Quote
India in Sri Lanka, 2001 [Series]
                SL     3   166  98*  33.20   0   1   2  2/69   67.00  0   0  0

That 98* won India the only test in SL – so this is relevant

3)
Quote
India in South Africa, 2001/02 [Series]
                SA     2    90  42   30.00   0   0   0   -       -    0   0  0

SG did not perform -- accepted

4)
Quote
England in India, 2001/02 [Series]
               Ind     3    68  47   22.66   0   0   0   -       -    0   1  0

SG did not perform -- accepted

5)
Quote
India in West Indies, 2001/02 [Series]
                WI     5   322  75*  53.66   0   2   0   -       -    0   3  0

His 70+ along with VVS knocks won India its only test –so this is relevant

6)
Quote
India in England, 2002 [Series]
                 -     4   351 128   58.50   1   3   0   -       -    0   2  0

Relevant

7)
Quote
West Indies in India, 2002/03 [Series]
               Ind     3    49  29   12.25   0   0   -   -       -    -   9  0

SG did not perform -- accepted

8)
Quote
India in New Zealand, 2002/03 [Series]
                NZ     2    29  17    7.25   0   0   0   -       -    0   0  0

We all know what kind of wickets these matches were played on. For the record, here is how others performed.
Name           Mat   I   NO   Runs   HS    Ave
R Dravid        2     4    0      131  76   32.75
SR Tendulkar  2    4    0      100   51   25.00
VVS Laxman   2    4    0       27     23  6.75

9)
Quote
New Zealand in India, 2003/04 [Series]
                 -     1   125 100* 125.00   1   0   -   -       -    -   0  0

Played 1 innings, scored a 100.

10)
Quote
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Aus/Ind) in Australia, 2003/04 [Series]
                 -     4   284 144   47.33   1   1   0   -       -    0   1  0

Relevant

11)
Quote
India in Pakistan, 2003/04 [Series]
               Ind     1    77  77   77.00   0   1   0   -       -    0   1  0

Played 1 innings, scored 77.

12)
Quote
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Aus/Ind) in India, 2004/05 [Series]
               Aus     2    59  45   19.66   0   0   0   -       -    0   0  0

Yes, conveniently forgotten are the batting stats of the other premier bats in this series. For the record:

                  Mat   I   NO   Runs   HS    Ave
R Dravid       4     7    1     167    60     27.83
VVS Laxman 4      7    0     123    69     17.57
SR Tendulkar 2     4    0      70     55    17.50


13)
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South Africa in India, 2004/05 [Series]
               Ind     2    97  57   48.50   0   1   2  1/14   29.50  0   0  0

Relevant

14)
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Pakistan in India, 2004/05 [Series]
                 -     3    48  21    9.60   0   0   0   -       -    0   3  0

SG did not perform -- accepted

so by final count --

14 series

5 non performance if NZ & Aus (at home) 2004 is excluded, given everyone performed poorly.
7 non performance if you include these series, if only to prove a point.

7 performing series or series' of relevancy.

Quite a far cry from 5 relevant series out of 16. Of course 5 out of 16 helps make the case that he hung on only due to JD --any other player would have been dropped.

In any case, his performance has been dissected many a times. Its a moot point.

I have always held the view that a rest or drop after Pak at home may have been justified. But I have also repeatedly made the point that if you did not drop him then when he was actually out of form, then you should not drop him after a successful county season, a succesful domestic season and a 100 against Zim (even though a minnow) because these show he was coming out of his bad patch. Because that means you are imposing a punishment retroactively -- dropping him for lack of form in seasons past at a time when he has shown signs of being in form.

All I hear from people here is that he had it coming --somehow its all justified now because he got away with it earlier (debatable). So much for objectivity in judgment.
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jaat69

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #67 on: August 02, 2006, 06:09:39 PM »

Applause~!
Great job Kban!
The last great multi-team tournament we won is the 2002 Natwest Trophy in England.
I cannot remember off-hand any other.
I would seriously like to examine this RD/GC combine performances in such a tournament.
It is one thing scoring hits against minnows and quite another becoming the real Champ! :D
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ramshorns

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #68 on: August 02, 2006, 06:12:04 PM »

Kban1,

Let me ask you a question.  Keeping all stats aside and the analysis on this thread which was started by Cerunnous do you think SG deserves to be in the side presently. 

Just give an answer in YES or a NO. 

Because I am a believer in "Stats only reveal a part of the story not the whole story".
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ruchir

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #69 on: August 02, 2006, 06:14:29 PM »

Quote
Yes, who disagrees that he needs to score?!

Absolutely no one disagrees with this.


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But he needs to be given a decent chance.

He had 2 years (2004, 2005) to come back in form. He was not able to do so. Is 2 years not enough time? 2 years is not a decent chance? What's the point here? Should SG be kept in the team unless he himslef reitres? If he is unable to strike consistent form in 2 years, then on what basis should he continue to be in the team? During the same duration of time, if there are other players who are proving themselves to be better than him, then why should they not be given a chance ahead of him? When does the stop watch actually stop for SG?


Quote
Can those deriding SG here with stats or those celebrating his downfall find out a way by which he can be given justice?

It is a figment of your imagination that anyone here is celebrating SG's downfall. No one is doing that. People are merely putting their views in front, backed with stats and figures. Nothing more than that. You have become so paranoid about defending SG that the moment someone puts his point across, about SG, that doesn't match up with yours, you start getting worked up thinking that the other person is making fun of SG.

What justice you are looking for? What justice SG needs? His form was going down consistently for 2 years. Ultimately, anyone in his kind of form would have been deselected from the team. So was he. Yes, some people in cricket said harsh things about him. They should be punished for that, if there is any punishment for them. But to think that SG will get justice only if he is selected back in the team is not the right thing to expect.


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It is easy to criticize and be judgemental. That is the easiest part of the job.

No. Atleast I took great pains in collecting and arranging all the data I put up. I spent a lot of time on that and it is not easy.


Quote
Any Tom, Dick & Harry can produce some dry stats from Cricinfo to deride a player........where is the genius involved? ;D

Again, if any Ram, Shyam and Gujjar was able to produce dry stats from Cricinfo, you would have done that long time ago. You would have produced some stats from Cricinfo to beef up your support of SG. But you have never done that. That leads me to believe that although it does not require a genius to pull stats from Cricinfo, it does require some intelligence to pull them and put them across in a meaningful way. Something you have not done yet. So, what does it tell me?
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jaat69

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #70 on: August 02, 2006, 06:18:17 PM »

SG certainly deserves to be in this team by merit.
If the sundry mediocre talent can be persevered with, SG as a proven match-winner will certainly do a lot of value-addition in this team.
The problem is the coach GC.
His frown and general bossy disposition will destroy the team spirit, as he did in Zimbabwe, if SG is included.
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Cover Point

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #71 on: August 02, 2006, 06:24:50 PM »

SG certainly deserves to be in this team by merit.
If the sundry mediocre talent can be persevered with, SG as a proven match-winner will certainly do a lot of value-addition in this team.
The problem is the coach GC.
His frown and general bossy disposition will destroy the team spirit, as he did in Zimbabwe, if SG is included.

Not responding to Jaat

but let me understand this theory

X sucks

Y sucks

Y is in the team so X should also be in the team. This will result in a winning team.

oh and addendum GC sucks!

Good theory!
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jaat69

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #72 on: August 02, 2006, 06:25:45 PM »

Again, if any Ram, Shyam and Gujjar was able to produce dry stats from Cricinfo, you would have done that long time ago. You would have produced some stats from Cricinfo to beef up your support of SG. But you have never done that. That leads me to believe that although it does not require a genius to pull stats from Cricinfo, it does require some intelligence to pull them and put them across in a meaningful way. Something you have not done yet. So, what does it tell me?

Who cares a fig, 'what does it tell you'?
Whatever u have done has been done before.....nothing new.
Here, we are re-evaluating the relevance of SG in the current team.
Is this team good enough to win a multi-team tournament?
It lost to a minnow(this WI has lost to all and sundry in their own land) by a whopping 4-1 in the last series. ;D
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kban1

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #73 on: August 02, 2006, 06:32:48 PM »

ramshorns:

You want a yes or no answer to a layered question ?

Sorry I cannot oblige. But If you have followed my posts, this is my POV.

1) SG could have been dropped after Pak series - he wasn't.

2) Dropping him after Zim or at least attempting to close the door on him then is taking action retroactively for past failures. This is ok for a criminal, not for a player plying in a performance based sport. What many here will never admit, if only because they need to attach  a veneer of legitimacy to the SG dropping (driven by their own negative assesments of SG) is that the dropping was based purely on the ego and whims of the coach -- SG's declining performance in ODI's as Ruchir pointed out and erratic test performances in the past only served to make the case easier against him, aided no doubt by the damaging (but unproven) email allegations, the media hype over his performance, and fan disappointment arising out of successive ODI finals losses and the demoralizing defeat against Pak at Bangalore.

3) If he had not been dropped then, he could very well have scored well in the next few matches and cemented his place -- so the question of whether he deserves to be in the team now is a bit difficult to answer isnt't it ?

Kinda like VVS's poor run and DG members deriding him as Mr. ZERO before he scored that 100 against WI to shut everyone up.

4) But since the dropping, has SG done enough to get back in the team ?

If you take the timeline from the end of the ZIm series, then the answer is 2 part --

a) he did enough in the domestics last season to be considered for a comeback /extended run.

b) since that did not happen, has he done enough this season in his abbreviated stint in the Counties ? NO -- right now, if we are talking about him getting back into the team, then he has not done enough. He needs to score a ton of runs to force his way back.

Sorry for the detailed response but your question did not have a straight yes or no answer from my perspective.
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ruchir

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #74 on: August 02, 2006, 06:35:48 PM »

KBAN:

Quote
then you should not drop him after a successful county season, a succesful domestic season and a 100 against Zim (even though a minnow)

Did you say SG had a successful county season?? ??

Northants 2006 FC Avg: SG = 6 innings, 24 runs, 4.8 Avg, 40.67 SR.
http://usa.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2006/ENG_LOCAL/STATS/ALL_FC-STATS/ENG_LOCAL_ALL_FC_AVS_NORTHANTS.html

Northants 2006 List A Avg: SG = 2 innings, 80 runs, 40 Avg, 68.96 SR. (he had one inning of 71 in 80 runs)
http://usa.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2006/ENG_LOCAL/STATS/ALL_LA-STATS/ENG_LOCAL_ALL_LA_AVS_NORTHANTS.html

Northants 2006 20/20 Avg: SG = 9 innings, 220 runs, 27.5 Avg, 104.76 SR.
http://usa.cricinfo.com/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/2006/ENG_LOCAL/TWENTY-20/STATS/ENG_LOCAL_TWENTY-20_AVS_NORTHANTS.html

So, other than 20/20, he played 8 innings and in those 8 innings he had one score of 71. That's it. You call that a successful county season??
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Jai

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #75 on: August 02, 2006, 06:42:51 PM »

KBAN:

Quote
then you should not drop him after a successful county season, a succesful domestic season and a 100 against Zim (even though a minnow)

Did you say SG had a successful county season?? ??

Northants 2006 FC Avg: SG = 6 innings, 24 runs, 4.8 Avg, 40.67 SR.
http://usa.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2006/ENG_LOCAL/STATS/ALL_FC-STATS/ENG_LOCAL_ALL_FC_AVS_NORTHANTS.html

Northants 2006 List A Avg: SG = 2 innings, 80 runs, 40 Avg, 68.96 SR. (he had one inning of 71 in 80 runs)
http://usa.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2006/ENG_LOCAL/STATS/ALL_LA-STATS/ENG_LOCAL_ALL_LA_AVS_NORTHANTS.html

Northants 2006 20/20 Avg: SG = 9 innings, 220 runs, 27.5 Avg, 104.76 SR.
http://usa.cricinfo.com/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/2006/ENG_LOCAL/TWENTY-20/STATS/ENG_LOCAL_TWENTY-20_AVS_NORTHANTS.html

So, other than 20/20, he played 8 innings and in those 8 innings he had one score of 71. That's it. You call that a successful county season??

Going by the sequence 'a successful county season, a succesful domestic season and a 100 against Zim', did it occur to you that he was referring to the earlier county season? Guess not.
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kban1

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #76 on: August 02, 2006, 06:45:31 PM »

Ruchir:

You obviously missed my post --there are 2 references to a County season. The first one (2005) was a success, the second one (2006 -abbreviated one) was a failure.

If you re read the context, you will notice that the excerpt you quoted refers to the 2005 season when he averaged 60+.
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Cover Point

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #77 on: August 02, 2006, 06:47:27 PM »

Going by the sequence 'a successful county season, a succesful domestic season and a 100 against Zim', did it occur to you that he was referring to the earlier county season? Guess not.

Ruchir You Idiot! You missed some other successful seasons of his too.

His great domestic season in 1991.

Awesome form in test cricket in 1996.
Great performance through 1999
Some great captaincy and awesome service to the country through 2003

And thus he needs to be selected for the 2007 WC.

str8 face really  ::)
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dhruvdeepak

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #78 on: August 02, 2006, 06:49:27 PM »

Quote
Sorry for the detailed response but your question did not have a straight yes or no answer from my perspective.
dont worry, nobody expected any such thing from you ;D
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ruchir

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Re: More from Wright's book on Saurav and dressing room
« Reply #79 on: August 02, 2006, 06:52:03 PM »

Ruchir:

You obviously missed my post --there are 2 references to a County season. The first one (2005) was a success, the second one (2006 -abbreviated one) was a failure.

If you re read the context, you will notice that the excerpt you quoted refers to the 2005 season when he averaged 60+.

Sorry.... I typed my comment before you made your other post.....
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