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pieterSAN

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #80 on: July 21, 2006, 10:28:34 PM »

pietersan:

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Kban, I assume you refer to Test cricket here

Yes

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Did he do so well that he justified a chance? Is it unlikely that people were looking towards the future and felt that Ganguly was done based on his last few innings.


yes, it was against a minnow, but he had a hundred within 3 tests when he was dumped.

Lets see the sequence - 101, 17, 5 (washed out match vs SL at Chennai), 40, 39 - dropped on the excuse that he was a bad influence (refuted by SRT in his convo with Pawar later)

Out of this the 5,40, and 39 were scored because KM and GC's hands were forced by the other 3 selectors outvoting KM and the SZ selector. So he was selected for 2 tests to be dropped for the third.

During this phase, SG after a County season in which he averaged 60+, was averaging 60+ in the domestic season with 3 hundreds.

So he was in form and opportunities were denied --first to play Kaif in T3 vs SL and then he got 1 chance to bat vs Pak at karachi where he played well but did not score enough to make it an open and shut case.

Essentially he had 5 innings at bat spread over 6 tests (inclusive of 2 of the tests he did not play in) and 2 series.

Quote
You may label it "hatred", to accept that someone does not seem to fit in the plans for the team. Of course, it can only weaken the case you argue, when there is not substance. Many of us who are not convinced that SG can contribute as a player in Indian cricket, are only being brutally honest. For some fans of SG this amounts to hatred/injustice/treason. I say some becuase many of us had defended SG to the hilt leading up to the last World Cup and were proud of him during the famous Australian tour of India. But now we don't see Ganguly as the same player.


You missed the gist of my post when I mentioned hatred.

Can you honestly say that there is no residue of malice on our coach's part in SG's exclusion from the squad ?

Can you honestly say he did not deserve a decent run, the kind that was extended to kaif ? Kaif got what a player trying to find his nick should get --shouldn't the same courtesy be extended to someone who has played and performed more than kaif has ?

I have no problems with people who honestly believe SG has nothing to offer to Indian cricket --he is past his sell by date. To me, its a difference of opinion between them and me.

That is not what the "hatred" reference is for.

But even a person who does not believe in SG's viability should be able to see differing standards when they are being applied right in front of our own eyes. Brutally honest should not be reserved for occasions when it agrees with our wishes and desires --its application should be uniform.

When some of this group choose to ignore politics applied against a person but choose to highlight and deride politics or semblance thereof when SG is the beneficiary, it reeks of double standards.

Can you deny that some in this DG are not in favor of status quo or the coach or management simply because it is this set up that allows Sg to be out of the team ? If so, which I believe it is for several (not all), then the agenda is SG centric --it has nothing to do with the team or the coach or the management --the support for this group stems a s a derivative of the agenda against SG.

This is the select group for whom the hatred description is meant. I do not throw about words casually, so my comments are based on careful observations of a person's comments over numerous threads, chat room comments etc.

Sorry if that comment seemed universal, it was not --it was meant for a few select members who get nothing but great joy at pounding SG with full vitriol.

Look around, read some posts and you will notice how every occasion is another one to "dance on SG's grave"  -thats a metaphor.

Not seeing Ganguly as the same player as before is ok to me, not showing the minimum and common decency due another human being and being devoid of any thankfulness to a sporting hero (past hero he may be to some, but  ahero nonetheless) is whats grating and hence the sobriquet -- blinded by hatred.

I agree that some of the rhetoric here is harsh, even if it is supposed to draw a laugh or two. For me, it will never change the fact that he was a hero and did things for Indian cricket that we are reaping benefits of now.

But, I don't see how dropping him surmounts to a lack of decency on the part of the selectors. I still believe that given Kaif's performance in the Ranji Trophy, looking towards the future it made sense. It may smell like bias and in that I see where you are coming from.
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kban1

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #81 on: July 21, 2006, 10:35:18 PM »

Pietersan:

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But, I don't see how dropping him surmounts to a lack of decency on the part of the selectors.


I was not refering to the selectors -I was talking about some of the reactions on the DG.

Speaking of selectors, dropping him is ok if that is what they thought was best (I doubt it given the timing and everything else involved here).

The problem may be with the kind of explanations and the hap hazard, half baked responses / treatment etc, not having the decency to have a straight chat with him and explain where the selectors stand etc (all of which could have been done and probably should have been done).
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pieterSAN

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #82 on: July 21, 2006, 10:41:32 PM »

Sounds reasonable, kban. But that (proper handling) would be too much to expect from the Indian selectors.
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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #83 on: July 21, 2006, 10:44:49 PM »

Pietersan:

Quote
But, I don't see how dropping him surmounts to a lack of decency on the part of the selectors.


I was not refering to the selectors -I was talking about some of the reactions on the DG.

Speaking of selectors, dropping him is ok if that is what they thought was best (I doubt it given the timing and everything else involved here).

The problem may be with the kind of explanations and the hap hazard, half baked responses / treatment etc, not having the decency to have a straight chat with him and explain where the selectors stand etc (all of which could have been done and probably should have been done).
Selectors goofing up is not nothing new. Its been like that since the days of Jimmy. No excuses here:-)
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JJ

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #84 on: July 21, 2006, 11:16:34 PM »

A Bengali newspaper reports that the email was indeed a personal email to elder brother SG, who handed it over to the candidate who published it. Now the elder brother is decidedly less smart than SG and has put his foot in his mouth in the past. So it MAY be that SG did not want to publicize this OR it may have been his chosen way to publicize his message without seemingly violating the BCCI contract.

In any case, the email appears to be authentic. So let's ask ourselves the following two questions:

1. Can SG realistically come back to the side before WC 07 WITHOUT entering the good books of Pawar et al? While in principle he could score 4 200+ knocks in successive OD's and the rest of the team could be 0 all out in the next 10 OD's, people in the real world know that *any* performance can be discounted (note ZK: "he is not in our plans) by the current BCCI. So realistically SG's chances given his form and the inclination of the BCCI is ZERO.

2. Can SG  realistically come back to the side before WC 07 WITH the backing of Pawar et al?
There is a 5% chance this will happen. So one may argue that SG *HAS* to do what the BCCI asks him to do, not just for this 5% chance of a recall but even to get future coaching positions etc.

As it turns out (and KBan has described this well enough) there are bigger political players involved in this game and SG pretty much cannot say no.

My feeling, and it is ONLY that, is that SG has given up -- he is a smart guy and realizes that there is little chance to make a comeback. He knows what form he is in and the current BCCI. So this is the beginning of SG coming to town. I look forward to his memoir after the WC next year.

-P

you may be right -
hey - check out the latest edition of telegraph india - from what i could surmise - the tone of LP Sahi's and other's articles on this
affair is not pro-SG - rather , they seem to taking the tone of ... "SG took JD's help when he could and now dumped him ..."

Interesting , huh ? given that Telegraph has been a staunch pro_SG paper
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JJ

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #85 on: July 21, 2006, 11:17:29 PM »

rams:

Agree. I made that point before. He needs runs more than anything.


This is a nuisance he is getting dragged into but he does not have  a choice here

I am not sure Kban1.  I personally feel the people around him are not advising him right.  Probably SG is dragged into this but there are better ways to handle this than writing an e-mail.  After burning his hand with the e-mail issue once one would think that SG would have taken secrets ways to take care of things this time around.

This email was publicly declared by Mr. Mukherjee at a press conference. So there's no question of burning his fingers with this. He did it openly. It was not supposed to be secret as his brother himself was involved in it. And let's not confuse it with the other email. SG didn't burn his hand with the 'other' email on his own accord. Many of us in the past believed what SG is himself telling us now regarding that email and who leaked it. Regarding your opinion about there's a better way to handle this than writing an email, let's SG decide that. Other than focussing on his cricket part which we all agree, how to handle this issue without the email will be a serious debate amongst us I am sure. So let's not say that sending the email was wrong on SG's part. Other means would have been viewed as wrong by other people too.
Just curious as to why you want things to be released through third parties.  One would think if want to take a stand and say something you would do that directly.  This is where things get complicated when you involve others.  It is again my opinion.  I also feel in the long run it is going to hurt him.

What's the problem if he sends the email and supports Mr. Mukherjee and also mentions the misgivings of JD in it? The fact that he's supporting Mr. Mukherjee is good enough. The stand is regarding his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'using third party', then be it. I don't see any issue here. He's clearly lending his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'involving others', then it can't be helped. Mr. Mukherjee is fighting the election against JD and SG is supporting him. It's that simple really. Why would SG directly take it up with JD? And even if he does that, do you think certain people would stop calling him names like crybabies etc.? As a lot of people said, it's a lose-lose situation for anyways. The SG-bashers will not spare him anyway. So better do what he thinks is the right thing to do. About whether it'll hurt him in the long run, hasn't he suffered enough already? How worse can it get?
Jai:Something called legacy is what I had in mind (beyond cricket), when I said it hurts SG in the long run.  Ofcourse we have differing views on the issue.  No harm in it.

Fine. But let me ask you this. If you were in SG's position trying to make a comeback, will be more concerned 'right now' about the issues/wrongdoings you have facred/still facing or about what is your legacy going to be when you retire? Let's leave the 'focus on cricket' bit here because everyone unanimously agree on that point.

Good question - the point is though - SG is not gaining anything by having this public spat ... fact is - he used JD and JD used him - thats how
politics works. SG should get real about that and maintain whatever little dignity he is left with.

This public spat? Today was the first time anything came out from SG that is against JD and you have already reached the conclusion that he's not gaining anything. How? He has kept quiet so far. May be he has realised now that by keeping quiet, he's not going to gain anything.

** Yeah, sure - he'll gain Pawar's support and get back to Team India - what a great way to get back to the team !!

And if he doesn't get back to Team India, then what will be your reaction? Find another excuse to demean SG.

 And who are you to decide how much dignity SG is left with? Instead of asking SG to get real, I think it'll be prudent for you not to make absurd statements.
** I am an unbiased Indian cricket fan - unlike you :) I think it woul;d be prudent for you to use your brains instead of your heart.


ROFL. Do you know the meaning of the word 'unbiased'? I can use both brains and heart, you should learn to use at least one.

Let's stick to civil discussions with points that can be discussed and debated.
** Heh Heh - funny that *you* should talk about being civil - my posts are always civil ...

Don't think so...for someone who talks about how much dignity is left in a person without any basis, that's not sign of a civil post.

Neither you nor anyone can actually decide how much dignity SG or anyone else is left with. Alright?
** Nope - I sure can decide how much dignity SG is left with since I am observing all the tamasha just as you are ...
I am as entitled to my opinion as you are and you had better learn to live with that ... buddy.


Aah...the opinion thing. I know I know...opinion is like an A**hole, everyone has one. You can call yourself 'unbiased' and claim you know how much dignity is left in SG, but what's the use? I can make other tall claims without having to prove it. Also, just because you are entitled to your opinion, don't assume that people are not going to react if you post them here. It's a public discussion forum after all. So learn to live with public reactions.


Jai - after reading your responses - I can only laugh - you're either SG himself or his relative ...
else why would you get so personal and offensive ??

So that said .. I will say that your rebuttal points are so emotional and devoid of logic that I'd be wasting my time responding in kind ..
Whatever , man ....


I had told you earlier to be civil in your responses, but you claimed your posts are always civil. If by supporting SG, I become SG himself or his relative, then what about you? Just because you included the phrase "I am an unbiased fan", do you really think people are going to believe it? This has always made me laugh. All anti-SG folks while referring to themselves use this term 'unbiased fan' and accuse anyone for even remotely supporting SG for being his mouthpiece, his relative etc. etc. Why so? Don't you guys have a better logic to defend yourselves? And yeah, my points are devoid of logic, and you are quoting from Bible when you say that SG has little dignity left. Learn to argue with points and logic first, both of which you lack now. Your posts right now are full of hatred. Using the disclaimer 'I am an unbiased fan' is not going to help. There's hardly anyone on this DG. Grow up without wasting any more time.

LOL !!
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JJ

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #86 on: July 21, 2006, 11:22:12 PM »



Hey Guys,

Check this out from Express India

Cricket’s new email story: Sourav Ganguly dumps Dalmiya
K SHRINIWAS RAO    
Send Feedback         E-mail this story         Print this story
Posted online: Saturday, July 22, 2006 at 0000 hours IST
KOLKATA/MUMBAI, JULY 21:
Seconds after 3.15 pm today, an email from distant Northamptonshire in England landed in a Kolkata inbox. Barely an hour later, the mail—sent from sourav87@hotmail.com to a ‘‘friend’s account’’—had snowballed into another cricket controversy.

For, it had Sourav Ganguly denouncing Jagmohan Dalmiya, the former BCCI boss who had played a key role in shaping the Bengal star’s rise to the pinnacle of Indian cricket.

On the face of it, the email expresses the Bengal star’s support for Kolkata Police Commissioner Prasun Mukherjee, who is contesting the Cricket Association of Bengal (CAB) elections next week against Dalmiya. But the text and tone of Ganguly’s email signals the end of a partnership that dominated Indian cricket for over five years since 2000.

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Ironically, Ganguly has drawn his ammunition from coach Greg Chappell’s email of last September that virtually consigned him to the dustbin a month after he was removed as captain. Ganguly now hints at Chappell’s email, which had accused him of “deceit and rumour-mongering”, having been leaked to the media by Dalmiya’s men in the CAB.

‘‘People who leak emails and sacrifice players’ careers should be heavily punished. There are people in CAB who are playing with players’ careers to suit them. They should not be left scot-free as it takes years of hard work to reach a certain level in sport,” says the email that was sent to Sanjoy87@hotmail.com, an account operated by Sourav’s brother Snehashish Ganguly. Snehashish, who read out from a hard copy of the mail at the Police Club at the maidan in Kolkata, has already expressed his support for the anti-Dalmiya camp.

“I am happy that the chief minister and the people concerned are addressing the issues and working in the right path,” said the email.

Obviously, Dalmiya is a disappointed man, fighting his final battle in Indian cricket with his back to the wall by ignoring West Bengal Chief Minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee’s advice and filing his nominations papers for the post of CAB president today.

‘‘Let me make this clear, Sourav is a very fine player. But I don’t expect loyalties from anyone, because I am no longer with the BCCI. And I really have nothing to expect,’’ said Dalmiya.

But he did display the composure that has seen him come up trumps in various cricket boardroom battles. ‘‘What? Again email? My God! We are yet to overcome the previous email (sent by Greg Chappell) and you are talking about another one now,” he said.

According to sources, Sourav’s rift with Dalmiya started last year when the 32-year-old felt that that the Kolkata businessman had not stood by him when he was sacked after the Zimbabwe tour in August. There’s also this simmering hope of a recall with the backing of one section of the current Board, which wants him to ‘‘retire gracefully’’ after one more Test series.

However, any possible chances of Ganguly’s return remains a long shot. For, the men who decide the way the ball rolls in the team are against his return.

In fact, a top member of the Indian contingent had told this paper that there was a fear that the former captain was still in touch with some of his supporters in the team, even suggesting to them that he may return soon.

But he saw no scope for the Bengal star’s return, as does the majority of the Board. In fact, one senior BCCI official told this newspaper today: ‘‘The coach doesn’t want him, the team-members are happy without him and the selectors aren’t convinced either. That apart, his performances don’t speak for him either. What else is to be considered? The last time we took a call to give him one last opportunity was when he was sent to Pakistan. Now, there’s no looking back. His career is over as far as playing for India is concerned.’’

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prfsr

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #87 on: July 22, 2006, 12:11:38 AM »


you may be right -
hey - check out the latest edition of telegraph india - from what i could surmise - the tone of LP Sahi's and other's articles on this
affair is not pro-SG - rather , they seem to taking the tone of ... "SG took JD's help when he could and now dumped him ..."

Interesting , huh ? given that Telegraph has been a staunch pro_SG paper

JJ:
Who knows if LPS is pro SG or pro JD? JD is the powerhouse in WB cricket. SG is a bachha by comparison. Perhaps LPS is a JD man, or perhaps he really felt that SG should have been "loyal".
Given that the board turned vengeant towards Saurav towards the end of JD's tenure (I admit I may be mistaken here -- do not recall the exact timelines) I do not see any reason for loyalty.

By the way, those who think CPM/WB is united in its support for SG, think again. Jyoti Basu and his henchman Subhash Chakraborty are JD backers. The CM Buddadeb and a minister of his (Ashok something) are SG backers.

-P
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fineleg

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #88 on: July 22, 2006, 12:14:02 AM »

fineleg:

Quote
So, did SG screw up now by talking abt stuff rather than playing cricket? or what he did was ok?


He should be playing cricket, which he is. He should be scoring runs consistently, which right now he is not.

Did not talk about stuff -he sent an email which was revealed (per some newsreports he wanted it public, per the Commissioner of Police - private email to brother).  Lets say the revealing had his tacit support -- should he have done that ?

My opinion  -- no, it might hurt him.

Did he have  a choice wrt to revealing it or not ? Hard to say, but I suspect he could have kept it private

Did he have  achoice in terms of taking a stand ?

NO --I have explained earlier why, not going to rehash it. He is  a political pawn here

Kban,
I partially agree that he is being a pawn, but I dont think he is 'helpless' and 'HAD to, FORCED to' do the 'public' email...I think most by now (incl urself) have reasonably concluded to some extent SG was involved in 'giving his blessing' to allow it to be public. Ofcourse, I'll retain the 2% doubt...coz we will never know the full truth.

One thing I will say:
In current form (being displayed in county), if they bring SG back into Indian team - then it reeks of politics on all side...it will reek of politics by Pawar, by SG, by Buddha, and sundry! And that is just plain what we *DONT NEED* for indian cricket...

Should this scenario happen, then:
We'll know - if ZK cannot get in becos of county, but SG can becos of county - then thats what it is - Politics.
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kban1

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #89 on: July 22, 2006, 01:02:58 AM »

fineleg:

I did not say he was forced to do the public email. I said he was forced to take a side here.

JD is influential but out of power --supporting JD dooms him.

The CM is his supporter -not supporting the CM (who is btw working with Pawar on this) dooms him from a playing perspective (BCCI) and from a family perspective (his family owns the 2nd largest printing press in Asia and its based in Calcutta -- surely you know that business can only thrive with political protection in Indian politics).

Supporting the CM alieniates JD

In every way possible its the devil's alternative.

And whatever email he sent would have ultimately become public -whats the purpose of a statement of support if it cannot be brandished in public.

I have grave doubts about whether the open admonishment of JD was his idea --it was something he was asked to do, IMO. Maybe he could have refused that part, in which case he should have. Then again, maybe he did not have a viable option.

And I hope he comes into the team riding on his performance. Not because he stood against Dalmiya.
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MockTurtle

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #90 on: July 22, 2006, 01:10:33 AM »

fineleg:

Quote
So, did SG screw up now by talking abt stuff rather than playing cricket? or what he did was ok?


He should be playing cricket, which he is. He should be scoring runs consistently, which right now he is not.

Did not talk about stuff -he sent an email which was revealed (per some newsreports he wanted it public, per the Commissioner of Police - private email to brother).  Lets say the revealing had his tacit support -- should he have done that ?

My opinion  -- no, it might hurt him.

Did he have  a choice wrt to revealing it or not ? Hard to say, but I suspect he could have kept it private

Did he have  achoice in terms of taking a stand ?

NO --I have explained earlier why, not going to rehash it. He is  a political pawn here

Kban,
I partially agree that he is being a pawn, but I dont think he is 'helpless' and 'HAD to, FORCED to' do the 'public' email...I think most by now (incl urself) have reasonably concluded to some extent SG was involved in 'giving his blessing' to allow it to be public. Ofcourse, I'll retain the 2% doubt...coz we will never know the full truth.

One thing I will say:
In current form (being displayed in county), if they bring SG back into Indian team - then it reeks of politics on all side...it will reek of politics by Pawar, by SG, by Buddha, and sundry! And that is just plain what we *DONT NEED* for indian cricket...

Should this scenario happen, then:
We'll know - if ZK cannot get in becos of county, but SG can becos of county - then thats what it is - Politics.

aha - in the wake of hatred for SG, the lazy, fat, cancerous ZK becomes a hero? something good after-all! how about protesting/questioning the 'POLITICS' that's keeping ZK out CURRENTLY? why worry so much about something that has not yet happened? all because SG is involved?
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fineleg

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #91 on: July 22, 2006, 01:14:48 AM »

Mock,
Not sure why I need to be always portrayed as "against SG"...In current form, not sure why I need to worry abt supporting SG inclusion. ZK did not become "hero" becos of hatred against SG.

I am for performance based reward: ZK did well and shud be rewarded. I stated it, and questioned why they are not including him (in another thread)...so being consistent on that.
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MockTurtle

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #92 on: July 22, 2006, 01:17:21 AM »

Mock,
Not sure why I need to be always portrayed as "against SG"...In current form, not sure why I need to worry abt supporting SG inclusion. ZK did not become "hero" becos of hatred against SG.

I am for performance based reward: ZK did well and shud be rewarded. I stated it, and questioned why they are not including him (in another thread)...so being consistent on that.

i didn't brand you as anything. just questioned your outrage at something that has not yet happened. i don't think your outrage at ZK being left out is of the same degree (unless i have missed some posts).



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ramshorns

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #93 on: July 22, 2006, 02:11:43 AM »

Mock,
Not sure why I need to be always portrayed as "against SG"...In current form, not sure why I need to worry abt supporting SG inclusion. ZK did not become "hero" becos of hatred against SG.

I am for performance based reward: ZK did well and shud be rewarded. I stated it, and questioned why they are not including him (in another thread)...so being consistent on that.
Fineleg is one of the most balanced guys on this DG.  From what I have been following of him since the sightscreen days he always supported guys who can add value to the team.  At various times I saw him criticise SRT/VVS/SG/RD/ZK/GC/KM based on the cricketing reasons.  In fact this DG owes a debt of gratitude to him for keeping this DG going. 4000+ posts. Wow.  Well done and keep up the good work.
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dhruvdeepak

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #94 on: July 22, 2006, 02:15:04 AM »

Mock,
Not sure why I need to be always portrayed as "against SG"...In current form, not sure why I need to worry abt supporting SG inclusion. ZK did not become "hero" becos of hatred against SG.

I am for performance based reward: ZK did well and shud be rewarded. I stated it, and questioned why they are not including him (in another thread)...so being consistent on that.
Fineleg is one of the most balanced guys on this DG.  From what I have been following of him since the sightscreen days he always supported guys who can add value to the team.  At various times I saw him criticise SRT/VVS/SG/RD/ZK/GC/KM based on the cricketing reasons.  In fact this DG owes a debt of gratitude to him for keeping this DG going. 4000+ posts. Wow.  Well done and keep up the good work.
we have to ask - is there anyone fineleg hasnt criticized  ;D ;D
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ramshorns

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #95 on: July 22, 2006, 02:30:00 AM »

we have to ask - is there anyone fineleg hasnt criticized  ;D ;D
Oh well.....Let me think probably not.   Hahahahahahaha.......
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fineleg

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #96 on: July 22, 2006, 02:43:13 AM »

Mock,
Not sure why I need to be always portrayed as "against SG"...In current form, not sure why I need to worry abt supporting SG inclusion. ZK did not become "hero" becos of hatred against SG.

I am for performance based reward: ZK did well and shud be rewarded. I stated it, and questioned why they are not including him (in another thread)...so being consistent on that.
Fineleg is one of the most balanced guys on this DG.  From what I have been following of him since the sightscreen days he always supported guys who can add value to the team.  At various times I saw him criticise SRT/VVS/SG/RD/ZK/GC/KM based on the cricketing reasons.  In fact this DG owes a debt of gratitude to him for keeping this DG going. 4000+ posts. Wow.  Well done and keep up the good work.

Rams,
Thank you.  Applause.
And yes ;D i have criticized many players coz whenever there is a slightly extended spell of poor performance (bowling or batting) then I am unable to bear that - lol (extended spell as per my standards is like 4 'nearly consecutive' ODI's or so!)...basically I get frustrated with a 3, 2, 34, 5, 7 kinda thing  :) High standards!
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dhruvdeepak

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #97 on: July 22, 2006, 02:44:48 AM »

Mock,
Not sure why I need to be always portrayed as "against SG"...In current form, not sure why I need to worry abt supporting SG inclusion. ZK did not become "hero" becos of hatred against SG.

I am for performance based reward: ZK did well and shud be rewarded. I stated it, and questioned why they are not including him (in another thread)...so being consistent on that.
Fineleg is one of the most balanced guys on this DG.  From what I have been following of him since the sightscreen days he always supported guys who can add value to the team.  At various times I saw him criticise SRT/VVS/SG/RD/ZK/GC/KM based on the cricketing reasons.  In fact this DG owes a debt of gratitude to him for keeping this DG going. 4000+ posts. Wow.  Well done and keep up the good work.

Rams,
Thank you.
And yes ;D i have criticized many players coz whenever there is a slightly extended spell of poor performance (bowling or batting) then I am unable to bear that - lol (extended spell as per my standards is like 4 'nearly consecutive' ODI's or so!)...basically I get frustrated with a 3, 2, 34, 5, 7 kinda thing
dont sell yourself short  ;D. you had plenty to say even when we were winning 4-1, 5-1 and 6-1  ;D ;D
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fineleg

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #98 on: July 22, 2006, 02:46:38 AM »

Not quite....when we were winning well, i applauded the team...may have still criticized folks within the 11 who were being "carried by others" during the wins and hence they were getting free rides.
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kban1

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #99 on: July 22, 2006, 03:54:29 AM »

The telegraph article -make what you will of it
*******************************************************
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1060722/asp/frontpage/story_6511352.asp

Sourav dumps Dalmiya in battle
LOKENDRA PRATAP SAHI
 
Calcutta, July 21: For one known to speak straight, in the dressing room and outside, Sourav Ganguly chose to rip apart one-time mentor Jagmohan Dalmiya in an oblique manner.

That, too, via an email nine days before the Cricket Association of Bengal (CAB) elections, where Dalmiya is up against police commissioner Prasun Mukherjee.

Mukherjee has been hand-picked by chief minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee, whose dislike for Dalmiya isn’t a state secret.

In fact, Bhattacharjee publicly declared he didn’t want Dalmiya’s innings at the Dr B.C. Roy Club House, where the CAB is headquartered, to continue.

With “issues” not getting resolved, as Dalmiya put it, he filed his nomination this afternoon. Exactly 33 days after the ‘I-want-Dalmiya-out’ call.

That the former International Cricket Council, Asian Cricket Council and Board of Control for Cricket in India (BCCI) president would fight was reported by The Telegraph on July 2.

While Sourav’s email has indirectly endorsed Mukherjee’s candidature, many also see it as a move to appease BCCI president Sharad Pawar, whose regime has been gunning for Dalmiya.

 
One argument is that pleasing Pawar may facilitate Sourav’s comeback. However, that can only be on the strength of solid performances — excellent example being Dinesh Mongia, who has just made a return after 15 months.

Sourav, who hasn’t played for India after the Karachi Test in February, is struggling even in England where he’s turning out for Northamptonshire.

So, it’s debatable whether the email helps. Yet, there’s little doubt many will now see Sourav as being ungrateful.

Among other instances, it’s not entirely unknown that Dalmiya (being the BCCI secretary) played a role in Sourav’s recall No. 1 — after over four years — for the 1996 tour of England.

V.V.S. Laxman lost out.

Today, Dalmiya merely said: “I’m no longer in power in the BCCI…. Since I have nothing to give, I no longer expect loyalty.”

The email, of course, came more than a month after the Dalmiya-baiters promised Sourav would soon “give his views”. Mukherjee himself made it public.

The email wasn’t anywhere as lengthy as coach Greg Chappell’s Sourav-damning communication to the BCCI brass, leaked last September, but didn’t lack explosiveness.

Hinting at Dalmiya, most influential till eight-nine months ago, Sourav clobbered him for “playing” with his career.

While Mukherjee said the email had been sent to elder brother Snehashish, it is addressed to a business associate. Unless the elder Ganguly has an ID which doesn’t bear his name.

Eyebrows have been raised at the language (“heavy punished” and “left scot free”), for Sourav is very pucca with his English, but Mukherjee wouldn’t have done the honours if it hadn’t come from Northampton.

Sourav, who received stitches after being hit in the Northants vs Pakistan match, couldn’t be reached for a comment till late tonight.

With both candidates having filed nominations and their respective panels as good as finalised (one Nemai Charan Dutta figuring in both), the focus is on votes.

Former BCCI and CAB president B.N. Dutt has emerged a key player.

Dalmiya, it appears, is strong on numbers in the 121-member electorate. Not that Mukherjee isn’t working overtime — in Lalbazar and beyond.
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kban1

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #100 on: July 22, 2006, 03:58:26 AM »

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1060722/asp/sports/story_6511286.asp

Mentor branded as villain
- one-time protégé sourav, too, turns heat on dalmiya 
OUR STAFF REPORTERS

Calcutta: It’s not official, but those in the know are aware that Jagmohan Dalmiya played an important role in Sourav Ganguly’s first comeback — back in the summer of 1996.

According to The Telegraph’s sources, there was a strong move to include rookie V.V.S. Laxman, but Dalmiya (as the Board secretary) facilitated the Bengal left-hander’s comeback after more than four years of being out in the cold.

That, however, isn’t the only instance when Dalmiya (in different capacities) came to the rescue of the younger son of a family known pretty well to him. It’s another matter that today Sourav has chosen to attack Dalmiya — albeit indirectly — at a time when the rest of the cricket fraternity is also after his head.

The list of other such instances is long.

m Ajay Jadeja was in the running for the India captaincy once Sachin Tendulkar announced he would relinquish the top job in early 2000. Dalmiya, however, did quite a bit of lobbying to ensure that the captaincy went to Sourav and not Jadeja — who, by the way, wasn’t even a regular in the Test squad.

m Sourav went through a slump in late 2001 and early 2002 and Dalmiya, as Board president, made sure that the heat on Sourav didn’t become unbearable.

Cut to more recent times.

m Sourav was banned by Match Referee Clive Lloyd in November 2004 for two Tests after the India-Pakistan platinum jubilee ODI at the Eden. Dalmiya worked overtime — thanks to an excellent rapport with ICC president Ehsan Mani — to get it overturned.

m Again, owing to a slow over-rate, Sourav got a stiffer sentence — banned for six ODIs — from Match Referee Chris Broad during the ODI series against Pakistan in April 2005. Dalmiya was back in the thick of action, and eventually Sourav’s sentence was curtailed to four matches.

m Dalmiya pulled the strings (it helped that Board president Ranbir Singh Mahendra was no more than a puppet) to ensure Sourav got back the captaincy after the tour of Sri Lanka — July-August 2005 — when the top job had gone to Rahul Dravid.

Till relations soured, Sourav would often say, “dekhi Jaguda ki bole.”

Sourav’s injury after the tour of Zimbabwe last year marked the start of the divide between Dalmiya and him. Sourav repeatedly told confidants that Dalmiya just didn’t do enough to get him back into the ODI team as he was more intent on holding on to his position of pre-eminence in the Board. Basically, Sourav felt let-down and was known to have told friends that Dalmiya had sacrificed him at a crucial time in his career.

Where their relationship is concerned, it didn’t help that Dalmiya’s group got wiped out (in the Board) last November. Even if Dalmiya wanted to help Sourav, he found himself in a situation where he couldn’t even have helped himself.

Of course till Friday, Sourav hadn’t blamed Dalmiya for leaking Greg Chappell’s sensational e-mail. Now that he has, a point of no-return has been reached.

Given what has happened, though, be prepared to hear some more…
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kban1

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #101 on: July 22, 2006, 04:00:50 AM »

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1060722/asp/sports/story_6511288.asp

I no longer expect loyalty: Dalmiya 
A STAFF REPORTER
 
Jagmohan Dalmiya at the CAB on Friday 
Calcutta: The Cricket Association of Bengal (CAB) president Jagmohan Dalmiya said on Friday that he does not expect loyalty any more since he is no longer in power at the Board. At a press conference, Dalmiya said he did not wish to be dragged into the e-mail controversy, and denied all charges made by Sourav Ganguly against his association.

“I’m no longer in power in the BCCI… Since I have nothing much to give, I no longer expect loyalty,” Dalmiya said.

On Sourav’s allegation that there were people in the CAB who played with a player’s career, Dalmiya said: “Let someone write to the association. CAB is a body and not an individual.”

But isn’t he the most powerful man in the CAB? “I don’t know who is writing to whom,” Dalmiya said.

Did such allegations from his one-time protégé hurt him? “I’ve got no answers. You are saying that he was my protégé. So, you go and ask him...”

Dalmiya appeared startled when asked about Sourav’s e-mail. “Again an e-mail? We are yet to get over the last mail! Let everyone see that you (the media) are leaking it and not me.”

Dalmiya repeatedly said that he didn’t wish to comment on Sourav’s e-mail, but with questions on the issue increasing by the minute, he became agitated and refused to take any more querries.

Dalmiya once again denied involvement in the Greg Chappell e-mail leak which took place in end-September last year when the Board AGM was being held in the city. “I’m not in a position to explain Sourav’s charges. I wasn’t involved in the leak. Only people who were involved can answer this question.

“Chappell had made it clear at the meeting in Mumbai that I was one of the intended recipients, but he could not send it to me.”

Dalmiya said he considered Sourav a “fine cricketer” and Prasun Mukherjee a “perfect gentleman”.

Dalmiya, who filed his nomination on Friday, didn’t wish to get into details of the past few days. “My dealings with the sports minister are confidential and not for public domain.

“There were issues that couldn’t be resolved. But the overwhelming support I’ve received from the members made me file my papers and strengthened my resolve to fight.

“And when you are working in a group, you have to give in whether you like it or not. In democracy there are no challenges.”
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kban1

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #102 on: July 22, 2006, 04:03:11 AM »

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1060722/asp/sports/story_6511289.asp

CP: Sourav was always with us
- ‘Views made public to set to rest misgivings’ 
A STAFF REPORTER
 
 
Calcutta: City police commissioner Prasun Mukherjee on Friday said he agreed with what Sourav Ganguly said in his e-mail regarding some people in the CAB trying to ruin his career.

“Sourav had been dropped for non-cricketing reasons. We feel that the CAB should have protested more strongly against his axing,” he said.

Mukherjee, who officially released the e-mail to the media at the Police AC tent, said: “We always knew that Sourav’s support was with us. He wasn’t duty-bound to send any e-mail. This is the first time that his views have been made public to set to rest misgivings in certain quarters. This is a private e-mail, sent to his brother, that has been made public.”

Asked if he would initiate an inquiry into the Greg Chappell e-mail leak if voted to power, Mukherjee said: “Let’s be practical and not hypothetical.”

Asked if he felt people in the CAB were playing with players’ careers, Mukherjee said: “I’m not here to interpret the letter… It is for you to interpret the contents.”

Snehashish Ganguly, who was sitting next to the police commissioner, said: “A lot of other players will also have the same opinion.”

Mukherjee opined in favour of having an independent observer at the AGM.

Mukherjee also laid out plans. “The clubs’ interests haven’t been looked after. The CAB administration is being neglected.”

Our Legal Reporter adds: The executive committee of the CAB on Friday declined to accept the proposal of city civil court judge P.K. Sarkar, who suggested that nominees of the two rival sides could be appointed observers to monitor the new executive body election on July 30. After hearing both sides, the judge adjourned the hearing till July 25.
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Libran

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #103 on: July 22, 2006, 04:03:20 AM »

REALLY? What great political practices has he indulged in? Is it his fault JD liked him? Or that they were both based in Bengal?

No JD liking him isnt his fault BUT

Him picking a dinner with a politician over a domestic game is his fault
Not scoring any runs and still wanting to be selected is his fault
Sending emails supporting politicians and playing politics with them is his fault.
Holding on to his position past his use by date is his fault!
Not running between the wickets prperly, not fielding well is his fault!

And your ability to keep parroting is not your fault....Sab Bhagwan ki kripa hai
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justforkix

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #104 on: July 22, 2006, 04:04:58 AM »

Should this scenario happen, then:
We'll know - if ZK cannot get in becos of county, but SG can becos of county - then thats what it is - Politics.

Nope county performances don't count because DM got into the squad and ZK did not get into the squad. So, logically, SG can also get into the squad. If DM's case and ZK's case are not politics, then SG's possibe inclusion in the future cannot be politics  ;D

we have to ask - is there anyone fineleg hasnt criticized  ;D ;D

Punter ? ;)
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Cover Point

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #105 on: July 22, 2006, 04:29:15 AM »

And your ability to keep parroting is not your fault....Sab Bhagwan ki kripa hai

No yeh to SG ki kirpa hai. Woh politics khelta hai aur humein bolne ka mauka milta hai.

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arjun

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #106 on: July 22, 2006, 06:44:49 AM »

It is hard to believe that we are such innocents that we think cricket selection is all about playing abilities. It has always been political. And everybody plays them. If someone thinks what gc/rd/km have done over the past one year is not politics, then he has got another think coming.
Saurav is not playing that well in the county cricket. Right. But that's only one month of cricket. He played fairly well in the domestics. How come none of the anti-sg brigade here clamoured for his inclusion then? The crux of the matter is that as his removal and continued non-inclusion was a political decision, so would be if and when he comes back into the team. Period. No point pretending to be naive about this.
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achutank

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #107 on: July 22, 2006, 06:53:46 AM »

are u addressing cp with that post arjun?

waste of time mate

nuances and commonsense do get through to him in that hole.
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prfsr

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #108 on: July 22, 2006, 12:11:44 PM »

The reaction from the BCCI is informative:

(transcribed from Anandabazar)

The Pawar group was doubtful even 24 hours ago as to whether Saurav was at all on their side. After the email reached on Friday, that mentality has changed fast. For example, Niranjan Shah openly said "Saurav did not name anybody. Of course he can comment on cricket in his own state." VP Lalit Modi went one step further and said, "A cricketer like Saurav has spoken up about problems/inconsistencies in his state board -- that is something to worry about. Someone can bring this up in the board meeting if they want to." Clearly Pawar's board is with Saurav on this issue. Whether this will affect his chances of making a comeback is not clear.

-P
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justforkix

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #109 on: July 22, 2006, 03:07:11 PM »


For example, Niranjan Shah openly said "Saurav did not name anybody. Of course he can comment on cricket in his own state."


Niranjan Shah and Kiran More form a perfect pair with brilliant logical statements  :D :D
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Libran

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #110 on: July 22, 2006, 03:37:42 PM »

rams:

Agree. I made that point before. He needs runs more than anything.


This is a nuisance he is getting dragged into but he does not have  a choice here

I am not sure Kban1.  I personally feel the people around him are not advising him right.  Probably SG is dragged into this but there are better ways to handle this than writing an e-mail.  After burning his hand with the e-mail issue once one would think that SG would have taken secrets ways to take care of things this time around.

This email was publicly declared by Mr. Mukherjee at a press conference. So there's no question of burning his fingers with this. He did it openly. It was not supposed to be secret as his brother himself was involved in it. And let's not confuse it with the other email. SG didn't burn his hand with the 'other' email on his own accord. Many of us in the past believed what SG is himself telling us now regarding that email and who leaked it. Regarding your opinion about there's a better way to handle this than writing an email, let's SG decide that. Other than focussing on his cricket part which we all agree, how to handle this issue without the email will be a serious debate amongst us I am sure. So let's not say that sending the email was wrong on SG's part. Other means would have been viewed as wrong by other people too.
Just curious as to why you want things to be released through third parties.  One would think if want to take a stand and say something you would do that directly.  This is where things get complicated when you involve others.  It is again my opinion.  I also feel in the long run it is going to hurt him.

What's the problem if he sends the email and supports Mr. Mukherjee and also mentions the misgivings of JD in it? The fact that he's supporting Mr. Mukherjee is good enough. The stand is regarding his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'using third party', then be it. I don't see any issue here. He's clearly lending his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'involving others', then it can't be helped. Mr. Mukherjee is fighting the election against JD and SG is supporting him. It's that simple really. Why would SG directly take it up with JD? And even if he does that, do you think certain people would stop calling him names like crybabies etc.? As a lot of people said, it's a lose-lose situation for anyways. The SG-bashers will not spare him anyway. So better do what he thinks is the right thing to do. About whether it'll hurt him in the long run, hasn't he suffered enough already? How worse can it get?
Jai:Something called legacy is what I had in mind (beyond cricket), when I said it hurts SG in the long run.  Ofcourse we have differing views on the issue.  No harm in it.

Fine. But let me ask you this. If you were in SG's position trying to make a comeback, will be more concerned 'right now' about the issues/wrongdoings you have facred/still facing or about what is your legacy going to be when you retire? Let's leave the 'focus on cricket' bit here because everyone unanimously agree on that point.

Good question - the point is though - SG is not gaining anything by having this public spat ... fact is - he used JD and JD used him - thats how
politics works. SG should get real about that and maintain whatever little dignity he is left with.

This public spat? Today was the first time anything came out from SG that is against JD and you have already reached the conclusion that he's not gaining anything. How? He has kept quiet so far. May be he has realised now that by keeping quiet, he's not going to gain anything.

** Yeah, sure - he'll gain Pawar's support and get back to Team India - what a great way to get back to the team !!

And if he doesn't get back to Team India, then what will be your reaction? Find another excuse to demean SG.

 And who are you to decide how much dignity SG is left with? Instead of asking SG to get real, I think it'll be prudent for you not to make absurd statements.
** I am an unbiased Indian cricket fan - unlike you :) I think it woul;d be prudent for you to use your brains instead of your heart.


ROFL. Do you know the meaning of the word 'unbiased'? I can use both brains and heart, you should learn to use at least one.

Let's stick to civil discussions with points that can be discussed and debated.
** Heh Heh - funny that *you* should talk about being civil - my posts are always civil ...

Don't think so...for someone who talks about how much dignity is left in a person without any basis, that's not sign of a civil post.

Neither you nor anyone can actually decide how much dignity SG or anyone else is left with. Alright?
** Nope - I sure can decide how much dignity SG is left with since I am observing all the tamasha just as you are ...
I am as entitled to my opinion as you are and you had better learn to live with that ... buddy.


Aah...the opinion thing. I know I know...opinion is like an A**hole, everyone has one. You can call yourself 'unbiased' and claim you know how much dignity is left in SG, but what's the use? I can make other tall claims without having to prove it. Also, just because you are entitled to your opinion, don't assume that people are not going to react if you post them here. It's a public discussion forum after all. So learn to live with public reactions.


Jai - after reading your responses - I can only laugh - you're either SG himself or his relative ...
else why would you get so personal and offensive ??

So that said .. I will say that your rebuttal points are so emotional and devoid of logic that I'd be wasting my time responding in kind ..
Whatever , man ....


I had told you earlier to be civil in your responses, but you claimed your posts are always civil. If by supporting SG, I become SG himself or his relative, then what about you? Just because you included the phrase "I am an unbiased fan", do you really think people are going to believe it? This has always made me laugh. All anti-SG folks while referring to themselves use this term 'unbiased fan' and accuse anyone for even remotely supporting SG for being his mouthpiece, his relative etc. etc. Why so? Don't you guys have a better logic to defend yourselves? And yeah, my points are devoid of logic, and you are quoting from Bible when you say that SG has little dignity left. Learn to argue with points and logic first, both of which you lack now. Your posts right now are full of hatred. Using the disclaimer 'I am an unbiased fan' is not going to help. There's hardly anyone on this DG. Grow up without wasting any more time.



LOL !!

Amazing response....have you really enjoyed this post OR have you given up...the latter seems more appropriate .. ;)
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jaat69

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #111 on: July 22, 2006, 04:45:07 PM »

Is there any point in discussing issues which we are not clear about?

What is not so clear about the issue??

Auntyji, What is clear about this issue? I haven't heard SG saying anything publicly on this.


I am not even certain, what is actually happenning! Lets not start hate-mongering once again.

On this particular issue, SG getting involved with CAB elections, I have been siding with SG all along (I surprised even myself!!). I have been saying consistently that he is being used by Bengal CM. So how come I am starting the hate-mongering?

You have been siding with SG?!! Surprising!..You are a known SG baiter and have left no oppurtunity to sully the ex-captain. Now you imply that the Bengal CM is using him?! How much do you actually know about what discussions happenned with SG and Bengal CM? Auntyji, How much do you know anyway about their future plans?....Nothing!
You and CP have thrived on hate mongering at the expense of SG and his fans. Suppose someone comments abt RD/GC/KM........then you start jumping up and down...and show your true nature.



I have been SG's fan and will remain so, whether or not he plays for the Indian team again.

Good for you. That's what true fans do.

Yes, you are right. True fans also do not insult other players who have done their service for India. You have much to learn here, I believe. Change your attitude.


Anybody, showing him disrespect will get his share of mouth-full from me.

Yeah baby, that's more like it.... But would you mind telling me exactly what is your mouth is full of? I didn't do anything yet.  ;D ;D

Auntyji, spit...think spit! ;D


« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 04:46:51 PM by jaat69 »
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JJ

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #112 on: July 22, 2006, 05:26:02 PM »

rams:

Agree. I made that point before. He needs runs more than anything.


This is a nuisance he is getting dragged into but he does not have  a choice here

I am not sure Kban1.  I personally feel the people around him are not advising him right.  Probably SG is dragged into this but there are better ways to handle this than writing an e-mail.  After burning his hand with the e-mail issue once one would think that SG would have taken secrets ways to take care of things this time around.

This email was publicly declared by Mr. Mukherjee at a press conference. So there's no question of burning his fingers with this. He did it openly. It was not supposed to be secret as his brother himself was involved in it. And let's not confuse it with the other email. SG didn't burn his hand with the 'other' email on his own accord. Many of us in the past believed what SG is himself telling us now regarding that email and who leaked it. Regarding your opinion about there's a better way to handle this than writing an email, let's SG decide that. Other than focussing on his cricket part which we all agree, how to handle this issue without the email will be a serious debate amongst us I am sure. So let's not say that sending the email was wrong on SG's part. Other means would have been viewed as wrong by other people too.
Just curious as to why you want things to be released through third parties.  One would think if want to take a stand and say something you would do that directly.  This is where things get complicated when you involve others.  It is again my opinion.  I also feel in the long run it is going to hurt him.

What's the problem if he sends the email and supports Mr. Mukherjee and also mentions the misgivings of JD in it? The fact that he's supporting Mr. Mukherjee is good enough. The stand is regarding his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'using third party', then be it. I don't see any issue here. He's clearly lending his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'involving others', then it can't be helped. Mr. Mukherjee is fighting the election against JD and SG is supporting him. It's that simple really. Why would SG directly take it up with JD? And even if he does that, do you think certain people would stop calling him names like crybabies etc.? As a lot of people said, it's a lose-lose situation for anyways. The SG-bashers will not spare him anyway. So better do what he thinks is the right thing to do. About whether it'll hurt him in the long run, hasn't he suffered enough already? How worse can it get?
Jai:Something called legacy is what I had in mind (beyond cricket), when I said it hurts SG in the long run.  Ofcourse we have differing views on the issue.  No harm in it.

Fine. But let me ask you this. If you were in SG's position trying to make a comeback, will be more concerned 'right now' about the issues/wrongdoings you have facred/still facing or about what is your legacy going to be when you retire? Let's leave the 'focus on cricket' bit here because everyone unanimously agree on that point.

Good question - the point is though - SG is not gaining anything by having this public spat ... fact is - he used JD and JD used him - thats how
politics works. SG should get real about that and maintain whatever little dignity he is left with.

This public spat? Today was the first time anything came out from SG that is against JD and you have already reached the conclusion that he's not gaining anything. How? He has kept quiet so far. May be he has realised now that by keeping quiet, he's not going to gain anything.

** Yeah, sure - he'll gain Pawar's support and get back to Team India - what a great way to get back to the team !!

And if he doesn't get back to Team India, then what will be your reaction? Find another excuse to demean SG.

 And who are you to decide how much dignity SG is left with? Instead of asking SG to get real, I think it'll be prudent for you not to make absurd statements.
** I am an unbiased Indian cricket fan - unlike you :) I think it woul;d be prudent for you to use your brains instead of your heart.


ROFL. Do you know the meaning of the word 'unbiased'? I can use both brains and heart, you should learn to use at least one.

Let's stick to civil discussions with points that can be discussed and debated.
** Heh Heh - funny that *you* should talk about being civil - my posts are always civil ...

Don't think so...for someone who talks about how much dignity is left in a person without any basis, that's not sign of a civil post.

Neither you nor anyone can actually decide how much dignity SG or anyone else is left with. Alright?
** Nope - I sure can decide how much dignity SG is left with since I am observing all the tamasha just as you are ...
I am as entitled to my opinion as you are and you had better learn to live with that ... buddy.


Aah...the opinion thing. I know I know...opinion is like an A**hole, everyone has one. You can call yourself 'unbiased' and claim you know how much dignity is left in SG, but what's the use? I can make other tall claims without having to prove it. Also, just because you are entitled to your opinion, don't assume that people are not going to react if you post them here. It's a public discussion forum after all. So learn to live with public reactions.


Jai - after reading your responses - I can only laugh - you're either SG himself or his relative ...
else why would you get so personal and offensive ??

So that said .. I will say that your rebuttal points are so emotional and devoid of logic that I'd be wasting my time responding in kind ..
Whatever , man ....


I had told you earlier to be civil in your responses, but you claimed your posts are always civil. If by supporting SG, I become SG himself or his relative, then what about you? Just because you included the phrase "I am an unbiased fan", do you really think people are going to believe it? This has always made me laugh. All anti-SG folks while referring to themselves use this term 'unbiased fan' and accuse anyone for even remotely supporting SG for being his mouthpiece, his relative etc. etc. Why so? Don't you guys have a better logic to defend yourselves? And yeah, my points are devoid of logic, and you are quoting from Bible when you say that SG has little dignity left. Learn to argue with points and logic first, both of which you lack now. Your posts right now are full of hatred. Using the disclaimer 'I am an unbiased fan' is not going to help. There's hardly anyone on this DG. Grow up without wasting any more time.



LOL !!

Amazing response....have you really enjoyed this post OR have you given up...the latter seems more appropriate .. ;)

Its the former - buddy boy ... these responses are only worth laughing at .. lighten up.
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flute202020

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #113 on: July 22, 2006, 06:14:18 PM »

Its really amusing how people support playing politics while they castigate GC & KM for kinds of imagined things. Look at this

1.KM's performance is bad irrespevtive of inefficiencies of cricket system , because we should not use it as excuse to judge KM. In fact, your expectations should not be lowered to judge KM.(Kban1 said something to this effect recently).

On this issue, Kban1 is willing to lower the expectations and standards and say "SG is only being forced by circumstances".  :) Yeah sure.


2. GC's finger wagging or underarm tactics were quoted adnauseam on this DG to castigate him and to put him down.

But, coming to SG 

a.his meeting JD few hours before the review committe meeting was OK
b. His non-performance until Zim tour was OK
c. his meeting with Pawar is OK, of course he was only invited to meeting.
d. His writing emails and getting involved in politics is OK, of course he is only being forced into all this. After all, he has to think about his business interests too. how very convenient
e. His changing loyalties from JD is OK. afterall he is only letting his opinion known.


No matter what the apologists of SG say, one thing is for sure. With the unholy alliance that SG maintained with JD all along, benefitting from it a lot (right from getting chance in the team to getting captaincy, to getting long rope for his non-performance), controversy with GC, non-performance in the last 2 yrs of his career, backstabbing JD, all these effectively destroyed SG's legacy. It is very difficult to hold SG in the same high esteem as SRT or RD.

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dextrous

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #114 on: July 22, 2006, 06:42:08 PM »



a.his meeting JD few hours before the review committe meeting was OK
b. His non-performance until Zim tour was OK
c. his meeting with Pawar is OK, of course he was only invited to meeting.
d. His writing emails and getting involved in politics is OK, of course he is only being forced into all this. After all, he has to think about his business interests too. how very convenient
e. His changing loyalties from JD is OK. afterall he is only letting his opinion known.


I still don't understand why exactly is meeting the BCCI President, when he himself requested it, is a crime? Or meeting the President of his own state's body? Or responding to the coach's e-mail?

 ??? ??? ???
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arjun

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #115 on: July 22, 2006, 07:02:40 PM »

Its really amusing how people support playing politics while they castigate GC & KM for kinds of imagined things. Look at this

1.KM's performance is bad irrespevtive of inefficiencies of cricket system , because we should not use it as excuse to judge KM. In fact, your expectations should not be lowered to judge KM.(Kban1 said something to this effect recently).

On this issue, Kban1 is willing to lower the expectations and standards and say "SG is only being forced by circumstances".  :) Yeah sure.


2. GC's finger wagging or underarm tactics were quoted adnauseam on this DG to castigate him and to put him down.

But, coming to SG 

a.his meeting JD few hours before the review committe meeting was OK
b. His non-performance until Zim tour was OK
c. his meeting with Pawar is OK, of course he was only invited to meeting.
d. His writing emails and getting involved in politics is OK, of course he is only being forced into all this. After all, he has to think about his business interests too. how very convenient
e. His changing loyalties from JD is OK. afterall he is only letting his opinion known.


No matter what the apologists of SG say, one thing is for sure. With the unholy alliance that SG maintained with JD all along, benefitting from it a lot (right from getting chance in the team to getting captaincy, to getting long rope for his non-performance), controversy with GC, non-performance in the last 2 yrs of his career, backstabbing JD, all these effectively destroyed SG's legacy. It is very difficult to hold SG in the same high esteem as SRT or RD.



I don't think you need to worry about SG's legacy. And it matters zilch whether you hold him in high esteem or not. I for one don't hold RD in any esteem at all. I think he is manipulative, and no leader of men at all. So?
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jaat69

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #116 on: July 22, 2006, 07:22:50 PM »

Its really amusing how people support playing politics while they castigate GC & KM for kinds of imagined things. Look at this

1.KM's performance is bad irrespevtive of inefficiencies of cricket system , because we should not use it as excuse to judge KM. In fact, your expectations should not be lowered to judge KM.(Kban1 said something to this effect recently).

On this issue, Kban1 is willing to lower the expectations and standards and say "SG is only being forced by circumstances".  :) Yeah sure.


2. GC's finger wagging or underarm tactics were quoted adnauseam on this DG to castigate him and to put him down.

But, coming to SG 

a.his meeting JD few hours before the review committe meeting was OK
b. His non-performance until Zim tour was OK
c. his meeting with Pawar is OK, of course he was only invited to meeting.
d. His writing emails and getting involved in politics is OK, of course he is only being forced into all this. After all, he has to think about his business interests too. how very convenient
e. His changing loyalties from JD is OK. afterall he is only letting his opinion known.


No matter what the apologists of SG say, one thing is for sure. With the unholy alliance that SG maintained with JD all along, benefitting from it a lot (right from getting chance in the team to getting captaincy, to getting long rope for his non-performance), controversy with GC, non-performance in the last 2 yrs of his career, backstabbing JD, all these effectively destroyed SG's legacy. It is very difficult to hold SG in the same high esteem as SRT or RD.



I don't think you need to worry about SG's legacy. And it matters zilch whether you hold him in high esteem or not. I for one don't hold RD in any esteem at all. I think he is manipulative, and no leader of men at all. So?

I agree.
The poor guy looks like a harassed fish-seller running a hefty loss! ;D
Looks tell it all!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 07:27:23 PM by jaat69 »
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ramshorns

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #117 on: July 22, 2006, 07:23:50 PM »

Its really amusing how people support playing politics while they castigate GC & KM for kinds of imagined things. Look at this

1.KM's performance is bad irrespevtive of inefficiencies of cricket system , because we should not use it as excuse to judge KM. In fact, your expectations should not be lowered to judge KM.(Kban1 said something to this effect recently).

On this issue, Kban1 is willing to lower the expectations and standards and say "SG is only being forced by circumstances".  :) Yeah sure.


2. GC's finger wagging or underarm tactics were quoted adnauseam on this DG to castigate him and to put him down.

But, coming to SG 

a.his meeting JD few hours before the review committe meeting was OK
b. His non-performance until Zim tour was OK
c. his meeting with Pawar is OK, of course he was only invited to meeting.
d. His writing emails and getting involved in politics is OK, of course he is only being forced into all this. After all, he has to think about his business interests too. how very convenient
e. His changing loyalties from JD is OK. afterall he is only letting his opinion known.


No matter what the apologists of SG say, one thing is for sure. With the unholy alliance that SG maintained with JD all along, benefitting from it a lot (right from getting chance in the team to getting captaincy, to getting long rope for his non-performance), controversy with GC, non-performance in the last 2 yrs of his career, backstabbing JD, all these effectively destroyed SG's legacy. It is very difficult to hold SG in the same high esteem as SRT or RD.


No denying the fact that SG overall is not handling the issues in the right way at all.  When it is all said and done he will be look down upon by many as someone who played it dirty weather it is true or not. 

I for one think he could have handled this whole sequence of things starting right from the GC eposide to this latest one in a better way.  I do not think he has shown good maturity handling matters outside the cricket field.   He may feel he might have been wronged and he probably has good reasons for that. 

Being the ex-captain of India, it comes with a price and it is in situations like these people expect a lot from you.  And I think SG is behind in count with regards to that.
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jaat69

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #118 on: July 22, 2006, 07:26:28 PM »

This is an interesting story unfolding.
Only, time will tell where this man finds himself.
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LosingNow

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #119 on: July 22, 2006, 07:29:08 PM »

LN:

Thanks for the effort at set theory -not necessary. I already granted you that I misunderstood your humor wrt Bill O'Reilly.

Damnit. My joke bombed.
Oh well --that was my (kbanesque) attempt at putting a convoluted, "deeply" analytical post for a rather small point.
You are the king, I am not worthy - taking a bow ;D ;D ;D
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Play with heart. Win with class. Lose with dignity
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