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Jai

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2006, 06:32:18 PM »

rams:

Agree. I made that point before. He needs runs more than anything.


This is a nuisance he is getting dragged into but he does not have  a choice here

I am not sure Kban1.  I personally feel the people around him are not advising him right.  Probably SG is dragged into this but there are better ways to handle this than writing an e-mail.  After burning his hand with the e-mail issue once one would think that SG would have taken secrets ways to take care of things this time around.

This email was publicly declared by Mr. Mukherjee at a press conference. So there's no question of burning his fingers with this. He did it openly. It was not supposed to be secret as his brother himself was involved in it. And let's not confuse it with the other email. SG didn't burn his hand with the 'other' email on his own accord. Many of us in the past believed what SG is himself telling us now regarding that email and who leaked it. Regarding your opinion about there's a better way to handle this than writing an email, let's SG decide that. Other than focussing on his cricket part which we all agree, how to handle this issue without the email will be a serious debate amongst us I am sure. So let's not say that sending the email was wrong on SG's part. Other means would have been viewed as wrong by other people too.
Just curious as to why you want things to be released through third parties.  One would think if want to take a stand and say something you would do that directly.  This is where things get complicated when you involve others.  It is again my opinion.  I also feel in the long run it is going to hurt him.

What's the problem if he sends the email and supports Mr. Mukherjee and also mentions the misgivings of JD in it? The fact that he's supporting Mr. Mukherjee is good enough. The stand is regarding his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'using third party', then be it. I don't see any issue here. He's clearly lending his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'involving others', then it can't be helped. Mr. Mukherjee is fighting the election against JD and SG is supporting him. It's that simple really. Why would SG directly take it up with JD? And even if he does that, do you think certain people would stop calling him names like crybabies etc.? As a lot of people said, it's a lose-lose situation for anyways. The SG-bashers will not spare him anyway. So better do what he thinks is the right thing to do. About whether it'll hurt him in the long run, hasn't he suffered enough already? How worse can it get?
Jai:Something called legacy is what I had in mind (beyond cricket), when I said it hurts SG in the long run.  Ofcourse we have differing views on the issue.  No harm in it.

Fine. But let me ask you this. If you were in SG's position trying to make a comeback, will be more concerned 'right now' about the issues/wrongdoings you have facred/still facing or about what is your legacy going to be when you retire? Let's leave the 'focus on cricket' bit here because everyone unanimously agree on that point.
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JJ

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2006, 06:36:16 PM »

rams:

Agree. I made that point before. He needs runs more than anything.


This is a nuisance he is getting dragged into but he does not have  a choice here

I am not sure Kban1.  I personally feel the people around him are not advising him right.  Probably SG is dragged into this but there are better ways to handle this than writing an e-mail.  After burning his hand with the e-mail issue once one would think that SG would have taken secrets ways to take care of things this time around.

This email was publicly declared by Mr. Mukherjee at a press conference. So there's no question of burning his fingers with this. He did it openly. It was not supposed to be secret as his brother himself was involved in it. And let's not confuse it with the other email. SG didn't burn his hand with the 'other' email on his own accord. Many of us in the past believed what SG is himself telling us now regarding that email and who leaked it. Regarding your opinion about there's a better way to handle this than writing an email, let's SG decide that. Other than focussing on his cricket part which we all agree, how to handle this issue without the email will be a serious debate amongst us I am sure. So let's not say that sending the email was wrong on SG's part. Other means would have been viewed as wrong by other people too.
Just curious as to why you want things to be released through third parties.  One would think if want to take a stand and say something you would do that directly.  This is where things get complicated when you involve others.  It is again my opinion.  I also feel in the long run it is going to hurt him.

What's the problem if he sends the email and supports Mr. Mukherjee and also mentions the misgivings of JD in it? The fact that he's supporting Mr. Mukherjee is good enough. The stand is regarding his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'using third party', then be it. I don't see any issue here. He's clearly lending his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'involving others', then it can't be helped. Mr. Mukherjee is fighting the election against JD and SG is supporting him. It's that simple really. Why would SG directly take it up with JD? And even if he does that, do you think certain people would stop calling him names like crybabies etc.? As a lot of people said, it's a lose-lose situation for anyways. The SG-bashers will not spare him anyway. So better do what he thinks is the right thing to do. About whether it'll hurt him in the long run, hasn't he suffered enough already? How worse can it get?
Jai:Something called legacy is what I had in mind (beyond cricket), when I said it hurts SG in the long run.  Ofcourse we have differing views on the issue.  No harm in it.

Fine. But let me ask you this. If you were in SG's position trying to make a comeback, will be more concerned 'right now' about the issues/wrongdoings you have facred/still facing or about what is your legacy going to be when you retire? Let's leave the 'focus on cricket' bit here because everyone unanimously agree on that point.

Good question - the point is though - SG is not gaining anything by having this public spat ... fact is - he used JD and JD used him - thats how
politics works. SG should get real about that and maintain whatever little dignity he is left with.
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LosingNow

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2006, 06:38:46 PM »

kban:
I thought O'reilly was the "No-spin zone" man. When it comes to SG, you are the "No-spin zone". (NOT!).

He  is not making runs therefore he cant get into the team. He needs "other" approach to get in..and in that "other" approach a) JD  has to be dumped - past favors has no value any more and b) Pawar has to be supported. Simple quid-pro-quo.

I predict SG back in the team - irrespective of his performance - after the CAB elections or BCCI elections. Such are the ways of Indian cricket...and frankly, though we all hate this mixing of politics and cricket.. power to SG for doing this - hey, whatever it takes - we have always put individual above the team/country!
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kban1

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2006, 06:43:13 PM »

JJ:

Like i said, I am not discounting the public consumption possibility but I am not willing to castigate yet --to me both options are possible based on info we have on hand.

Well, politics is politics and yes he would have been better off without this mess  - my point is this mess was foisted on him, he did not choose it.

And about runs --like I said, we are in agreement -- my POV is same as yours.
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JJ

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2006, 06:43:41 PM »

kban:
I thought O'reilly was the "No-spin zone" man. When it comes to SG, you are the "No-spin zone". (NOT!).

He  is not making runs therefore he cant get into the team. He needs "other" approach to get in..and in that "other" approach a) JD  has to be dumped - past favors has no value any more and b) Pawar has to be supported. Simple quid-pro-quo.

I predict SG back in the team - irrespective of his performance - after the CAB elections or BCCI elections. Such are the ways of Indian cricket...and frankly, though we all hate this mixing of politics and cricket.. power to SG for doing this - hey, whatever it takes - we have always put individual above the team/country!

Good use of sarcasm ... well said.
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Cover Point

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #45 on: July 21, 2006, 06:45:07 PM »

kban:
I thought O'reilly was the "No-spin zone" man. When it comes to SG, you are the "No-spin zone". (NOT!).

He  is not making runs therefore he cant get into the team. He needs "other" approach to get in..and in that "other" approach a) JD  has to be dumped - past favors has no value any more and b) Pawar has to be supported. Simple quid-pro-quo.

I predict SG back in the team - irrespective of his performance - after the CAB elections or BCCI elections. Such are the ways of Indian cricket...and frankly, though we all hate this mixing of politics and cricket.. power to SG for doing this - hey, whatever it takes - we have always put individual above the team/country!

And the losing now name that I was hoping would change after the WC would continue on for a few more years!

What i find funny is the same people who come out so vocal against corruption etc in other places are happy to in a dead pan way to say .. "Oh he is just playing politics... poor guy what else can he do. He knows he isnt good enough so is just trying to use what he can". Bloody hell! Now being a crook is ok if you are not good enough to get in through the right way!

And forget the whole thing about SG stabbing JD in the back (I am sure JD deserves that)
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JJ

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2006, 06:45:38 PM »

JJ:

Like i said, I am not discounting the public consumption possibility but I am not willing to castigate yet --to me both options are possible based on info we have on hand.

Well, politics is politics and yes he would have been better off without this mess  - my point is this mess was foisted on him, he did not choose it.

** Just curious - which mess are you referring to ? Don't you think he has the option of remaining silent ?


And about runs --like I said, we are in agreement -- my POV is same as yours.
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kban1

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2006, 06:51:13 PM »

I just read Dhruv's post above  -so now it does appear that SG meant to have the email released publicly.

As I said, I have no issues accepting that if more news is revealed which confirms it.

*Not sure whu my last post showed up on the thread this late --I had posted it over an hour ago.
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ramshorns

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #48 on: July 21, 2006, 06:53:08 PM »

kban:
I thought O'reilly was the "No-spin zone" man. When it comes to SG, you are the "No-spin zone". (NOT!).

Losing:That line is funny :D :D :D :D.  Sorry Kban1:
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Cover Point

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #49 on: July 21, 2006, 06:59:52 PM »

I just read Dhruv's post above  -so now it does appear that SG meant to have the email released publicly.

As I said, I have no issues accepting that if more news is revealed which confirms it.

*Not sure whu my last post showed up on the thread this late --I had posted it over an hour ago.

So u seriously doubt he meant for that email to be made public? Are u suggesting that was a personal email to his brother? Come now Kban. You usually seem a reasonable fellow. Ganguly ke aate hi Reason becomes treason?
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Jai

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2006, 07:02:51 PM »

rams:

Agree. I made that point before. He needs runs more than anything.


This is a nuisance he is getting dragged into but he does not have  a choice here

I am not sure Kban1.  I personally feel the people around him are not advising him right.  Probably SG is dragged into this but there are better ways to handle this than writing an e-mail.  After burning his hand with the e-mail issue once one would think that SG would have taken secrets ways to take care of things this time around.

This email was publicly declared by Mr. Mukherjee at a press conference. So there's no question of burning his fingers with this. He did it openly. It was not supposed to be secret as his brother himself was involved in it. And let's not confuse it with the other email. SG didn't burn his hand with the 'other' email on his own accord. Many of us in the past believed what SG is himself telling us now regarding that email and who leaked it. Regarding your opinion about there's a better way to handle this than writing an email, let's SG decide that. Other than focussing on his cricket part which we all agree, how to handle this issue without the email will be a serious debate amongst us I am sure. So let's not say that sending the email was wrong on SG's part. Other means would have been viewed as wrong by other people too.
Just curious as to why you want things to be released through third parties.  One would think if want to take a stand and say something you would do that directly.  This is where things get complicated when you involve others.  It is again my opinion.  I also feel in the long run it is going to hurt him.

What's the problem if he sends the email and supports Mr. Mukherjee and also mentions the misgivings of JD in it? The fact that he's supporting Mr. Mukherjee is good enough. The stand is regarding his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'using third party', then be it. I don't see any issue here. He's clearly lending his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'involving others', then it can't be helped. Mr. Mukherjee is fighting the election against JD and SG is supporting him. It's that simple really. Why would SG directly take it up with JD? And even if he does that, do you think certain people would stop calling him names like crybabies etc.? As a lot of people said, it's a lose-lose situation for anyways. The SG-bashers will not spare him anyway. So better do what he thinks is the right thing to do. About whether it'll hurt him in the long run, hasn't he suffered enough already? How worse can it get?
Jai:Something called legacy is what I had in mind (beyond cricket), when I said it hurts SG in the long run.  Ofcourse we have differing views on the issue.  No harm in it.

Fine. But let me ask you this. If you were in SG's position trying to make a comeback, will be more concerned 'right now' about the issues/wrongdoings you have facred/still facing or about what is your legacy going to be when you retire? Let's leave the 'focus on cricket' bit here because everyone unanimously agree on that point.

Good question - the point is though - SG is not gaining anything by having this public spat ... fact is - he used JD and JD used him - thats how
politics works. SG should get real about that and maintain whatever little dignity he is left with.

This public spat? Today was the first time anything came out from SG that is against JD and you have already reached the conclusion that he's not gaining anything. How? He has kept quiet so far. May be he has realised now that by keeping quiet, he's not going to gain anything. And who are you to decide how much dignity SG is left with? Instead of asking SG to get real, I think it'll be prudent for you not to make absurd statements. Let's stick to civil discussions with points that can be discussed and debated. Neither you nor anyone can actually decide how much dignity SG or anyone else is left with. Alright?
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kban1

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2006, 07:23:20 PM »

Quote
So u seriously doubt he meant for that email to be made public? Are u suggesting that was a personal email to his brother? Come now Kban. You usually seem a reasonable fellow. Ganguly ke aate hi Reason becomes treason?

No, I said I was not sure and was not willing to jump on one side or the other without the benefit of further info --since then more info has come to light, I have no problem accepting that
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kban1

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2006, 07:58:59 PM »

LN:

Quote
kban:
I thought O'reilly was the "No-spin zone" man. When it comes to SG, you are the "No-spin zone". (NOT!).


I can see why you would think O’reilly is the No Spin Zone given your political proclivities. To me he is anything but  -- more like looking for information to fit a preconceived notion.

So if that’s your gold standard, I am happy to not be in that zone.

But why question me about the No Spin Zone or whatever gold standard you follow  -- did you seriously miss the part in my posts where I stated that SG needs to score runs to force his way back into the team ? Or is this just reflective of selective reading ?

Quote
He  is not making runs therefore he cant get into the team. He needs "other" approach to get in..and in that "other" approach a) JD  has to be dumped - past favors has no value any more and b) Pawar has to be supported. Simple quid-pro-quo.


We all know what the quid pro quo is here, don’t we ?

But curious as to why your outrage was bottled up for so long when the shoe was on the other foot ?  Why did I not hear a word from you about politics when SG was not given a decent chance despite scoring runs –when he had the runs but politics by the "powers that be" kept him out of the team ? No righteous indignation then ? No cries of outrage about politics then ?

Hmmm, selective powers of comprehension ?
selective powers of expression too ??

Oh wait –I remember you saying a few things, mostly justifying how whatever treatment SG was being subjected to was not really reflective of politics.

Right, I guess that was the phase when you had been granted a temporary leave of absence from “the No Spin Zone” or knowing the worth of your gold standard, maybe that was just the "no spin" spin.

Quote
I predict SG back in the team - irrespective of his performance - after the CAB elections or BCCI elections. Such are the ways of Indian cricket...and frankly, though we all hate this mixing of politics and cricket.. power to SG for doing this - hey, whatever it takes - we have always put individual above the team/country!

Nice sarcasm there. Again, conspicuous by its absence when individuals like coach and selector are calling the shots and playing with players’ careers to settle personal grudges (no, you are right, somehow this does not affect team and country!!!) but out in full bloom when its time to deride SG.

Can hatred really be this powerful ? Cause a total capitulation of faculties and balance ?

Must be a staple practice of the No Spin Zone – A collective lapse in faculties of reasoning, comprehension, and expression which conveniently and selectively surfaces when the object of hatred or the agenda opposite to personal beliefs surface.

Long live the “NO SPIN ZONE” – happy to be not part of it.   :D :D
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ramshorns

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2006, 08:19:42 PM »

This today in DC.

http://www.deccan.com/home/homedetails.asp#Sourav%20attacks%20Dalmiya

Sourav attacks Dalmiya
 
 
Kolkata, July 21: Former Indian cricket captain Sourav Ganguly on Saturday accused ex-BCCI president Jagmohan Dalmiya and his confidants of toying with cricketers’ careers. The accusation came on the same day that Mr Dalmiya filed his nomination for the Cricket Association of Bengal’s presidential election.

In an email (a copy of which is with this newspaper) to his elder brother Snehashis, the ex-India captain said: “Those who leak emails (the confidential email sent by coach Greg Chappell to the then BCCI top brass) and sacrifice players’ careers should be heavy (sic) punished. There are people in CAB who are playing with players’ careers to suit them(selves).

They should not be left scot free (sic) as it takes years of hard work to reach a certain level in sport. I am happy that the chief minister and the people concerned are addressing the issues and working towards the right path.”

Ganguly’s email, ahead of the CAB elections, comes as a shot in the arm for the opposition camp headed by Kolkata police chief Prasun Mukherjee, who is backed by West Bengal Chief Minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee. Incidentally, Mr Mukherjee filed his nomination for the president’s post on Thursday.

Meanwhile, in an email, Mr Mukherjee said: “This is a private letter to his brother. But we have shared it with you because for the first time Sourav has opened up against the injustice meted out to him. His moral support was always there.” Asked whether that email leak had ruined his brother’s career, Snehashis said: “You should ask him.”

It is learnt that Sourav had a tête-à-tête with some current cricket board officials recently in England and reportedly got the go-ahead to express his mind. Mr Dalmiya was a little sarcastic in his reaction. Indirectly questioning the authenticity of Sourav’s email, he said: “Again an email. Who leaked it this time? I don’t want to dig deep into the matter. People who are affected can answer. I no longer expect loyalty since I am no longer with BCCI. I have nothing to deliver.” The incumbent CAB president was asked by the chief minister to stay away from the presidential race. But as compromise formulae did not work out, he refused to budge.

POV:The part highlighted in red is what bothers me the most.   If that is anywhere close to true I mean it is not cricket, at this point what SG and few in BCCI are playing.  Or can I dare say and want to bet anyone my bottom dollar that SG will be back runs or no runs.  I mean I do not mind seeing SG back but with all this I wonder is it worth it.
 
« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 08:34:47 PM by ramshorns »
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LosingNow

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2006, 08:25:15 PM »

LN:

Quote
kban:
I thought O'reilly was the "No-spin zone" man. When it comes to SG, you are the "No-spin zone". (NOT!).


I can see why you would think O’reilly is the No Spin Zone given your political proclivities. To me he is anything but  -- more like looking for information to fit a preconceived notion.

Duh!! You missed the point.

I was mocking O'reilly's "No Spin Zone" ..and was equating your "justification of SG's email" to his way of spinning things.

BTW, whatever my political proclivities (which I think you have very little idea of and I do not know why they are relevant for this discussion), I find O'reilly to be a big joker on TV (specially for what you just said - his spinning of news to fit his preconceived notions)and watch Olbermann and enjoy his ripping of O'reilly regularly...and I also watch the Colbert Report because his is probably the most biting and sarcastic take on O'reilly.. I mean 30 minutes of daily spoof on O'reilly done in such a smart and witty manner.

Check this post out from early March..
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=1359.msg17519#msg17519

I agree with you .. he is the gold standard on Spin portrayed as "No-Spin Zone".
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ramshorns

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2006, 08:34:00 PM »

LN:

Quote
kban:
I thought O'reilly was the "No-spin zone" man. When it comes to SG, you are the "No-spin zone". (NOT!).


I can see why you would think O’reilly is the No Spin Zone given your political proclivities. To me he is anything but  -- more like looking for information to fit a preconceived notion.

Duh!! You missed the point.

I was mocking O'reilly's "No Spin Zone" ..and was equating your "justification of SG's email" to his way of spinning things.

BTW, whatever my political proclivities (which I think you have very little idea of and I do not know why they are relevant for this discussion), I find O'reilly to be a big joker on TV (specially for what you just said - his spinning of news to fit his preconceived notions)and watch Olbermann and enjoy his ripping of O'reilly regularly...and I also watch the Colbert Report because his is probably the most biting and sarcastic take on O'reilly.. I mean 30 minutes of daily spoof on O'reilly done in such a smart and witty manner.

Check this post out from early March..
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=1359.msg17519#msg17519

I agree with you .. he is the gold standard on Spin portrayed as "No-Spin Zone".
I think Kban1 just misunderstood you.  No big deal.  But I like Oblermann too.  He talks sports on radio with Dan Patrick for an hr on ESPN.  He is very good at what he does. 

I watch Reilly on the re-runs at 11:00PM to have a few laughs.  I admit here that I like him on a few things.
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kban1

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2006, 08:40:16 PM »

LN:

Quote
I was mocking O'reilly's "No Spin Zone" ..and was equating your "justification of SG's email" to his way of spinning things.

Maybe I did miss you mocking O'reilly but if you read my post, you will see that your comparison is way off -- I did not defend the email, I simply said we do not know enough yet to jump to conclusions about public vs pvt. Not willing to jump the gun and castigate is not the same as "no spin" spin.

Quote
BTW, whatever my political proclivities (which I think you have very little idea of and I do not know why they are relevant for this discussion),

Au contraire, I think you elaborated what your leanings are on a recent thread. Nothing wrong with that -your choice but usually Oreilly is a big hit with those who tend to agree Republican. Thats why I mentioned that --as it turns out, its irreleveant anyways because you were taking a dig at O'reilly (as well as me  :D) --just thought I would clarify why I brought your political leanings (self professed) into the picture.
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LosingNow

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2006, 08:42:15 PM »

Quote
I think Kban1 just misunderstood you.  No big deal.  But I like Oblermann too.  He talks sports on radio with Dan Patrick for an hr on ESPN.  He is very good at what he does. 

I watch Reilly on the re-runs at 11:00PM to have a few laughs.  I admit here that I like him on a few things.
I absolutely like Dan Patrick. He is the best Radio talk show host, IMHO. When I was in Jersey, they used to have an afternoon show on local NY sports radio called Mike and the Mad Dog. They were awesome!

Of course, I watch O'reilly for laughs once in a while too..but I turn him off when he gets on my nerves (I am getting old and there is only so much BS you can take). I mean you have to admit this guy is twisted..I'm not sure if his spin is a facade (like Ann Coulter) to make money or if he genuinely does believe in his own crap.
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JJ

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2006, 08:43:21 PM »

rams:

Agree. I made that point before. He needs runs more than anything.


This is a nuisance he is getting dragged into but he does not have  a choice here

I am not sure Kban1.  I personally feel the people around him are not advising him right.  Probably SG is dragged into this but there are better ways to handle this than writing an e-mail.  After burning his hand with the e-mail issue once one would think that SG would have taken secrets ways to take care of things this time around.

This email was publicly declared by Mr. Mukherjee at a press conference. So there's no question of burning his fingers with this. He did it openly. It was not supposed to be secret as his brother himself was involved in it. And let's not confuse it with the other email. SG didn't burn his hand with the 'other' email on his own accord. Many of us in the past believed what SG is himself telling us now regarding that email and who leaked it. Regarding your opinion about there's a better way to handle this than writing an email, let's SG decide that. Other than focussing on his cricket part which we all agree, how to handle this issue without the email will be a serious debate amongst us I am sure. So let's not say that sending the email was wrong on SG's part. Other means would have been viewed as wrong by other people too.
Just curious as to why you want things to be released through third parties.  One would think if want to take a stand and say something you would do that directly.  This is where things get complicated when you involve others.  It is again my opinion.  I also feel in the long run it is going to hurt him.

What's the problem if he sends the email and supports Mr. Mukherjee and also mentions the misgivings of JD in it? The fact that he's supporting Mr. Mukherjee is good enough. The stand is regarding his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'using third party', then be it. I don't see any issue here. He's clearly lending his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'involving others', then it can't be helped. Mr. Mukherjee is fighting the election against JD and SG is supporting him. It's that simple really. Why would SG directly take it up with JD? And even if he does that, do you think certain people would stop calling him names like crybabies etc.? As a lot of people said, it's a lose-lose situation for anyways. The SG-bashers will not spare him anyway. So better do what he thinks is the right thing to do. About whether it'll hurt him in the long run, hasn't he suffered enough already? How worse can it get?
Jai:Something called legacy is what I had in mind (beyond cricket), when I said it hurts SG in the long run.  Ofcourse we have differing views on the issue.  No harm in it.

Fine. But let me ask you this. If you were in SG's position trying to make a comeback, will be more concerned 'right now' about the issues/wrongdoings you have facred/still facing or about what is your legacy going to be when you retire? Let's leave the 'focus on cricket' bit here because everyone unanimously agree on that point.

Good question - the point is though - SG is not gaining anything by having this public spat ... fact is - he used JD and JD used him - thats how
politics works. SG should get real about that and maintain whatever little dignity he is left with.

This public spat? Today was the first time anything came out from SG that is against JD and you have already reached the conclusion that he's not gaining anything. How? He has kept quiet so far. May be he has realised now that by keeping quiet, he's not going to gain anything.

** Yeah, sure - he'll gain Pawar's support and get back to Team India - what a great way to get back to the team !!

 And who are you to decide how much dignity SG is left with? Instead of asking SG to get real, I think it'll be prudent for you not to make absurd statements.
** I am an unbiased Indian cricket fan - unlike you :) I think it woul;d be prudent for you to use your brains instead of your heart.

Let's stick to civil discussions with points that can be discussed and debated.
** Heh Heh - funny that *you* should talk about being civil - my posts are always civil ...

Neither you nor anyone can actually decide how much dignity SG or anyone else is left with. Alright?
** Nope - I sure can decide how much dignity SG is left with since I am observing all the tamasha just as you are ...
I am as entitled to my opinion as you are and you had better learn to live with that ... buddy.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 08:45:07 PM by JJ »
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fineleg

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2006, 08:47:24 PM »

I've been rather pre-occupied with non-dg stuff...but someone mentioned to me that after a long time SG has hit the news again! So, just popping my head in to see whats going on...(Guess I'm not needed for creating thread/posts, now that SG has given some thing to talk abt).

I will have to find time later to cull thru the posts - but needed a "quick" update (maybe kban can provide me the "quick" update  ;D )

Just one question since I'm desperate to know a short answer (like I'm gonna get a short answer :) !)
So, did SG screw up now by talking abt stuff rather than playing cricket? or what he did was ok? (sorry, i havent read thru all posts above...will promise to do so later).
« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 08:49:49 PM by fineleg »
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pieterSAN

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2006, 08:49:04 PM »

LN:

We all know what the quid pro quo is here, don’t we ?

But curious as to why your outrage was bottled up for so long when the shoe was on the other foot ?  Why did I not hear a word from you about politics when SG was not given a decent chance despite scoring runs –when he had the runs but politics by the "powers that be" kept him out of the team ? No righteous indignation then ? No cries of outrage about politics then ?

Hmmm, selective powers of comprehension ?
selective powers of expression too ??

Oh wait –I remember you saying a few things, mostly justifying how whatever treatment SG was being subjected to was not really reflective of politics.

Right, I guess that was the phase when you had been granted a temporary leave of absence from “the No Spin Zone” or knowing the worth of your gold standard, maybe that was just the "no spin" spin.

Kban, I assume you refer to Test cricket here

Did he do so well that he justified a chance? Is it unlikely that people were looking towards the future and felt that Ganguly was done based on his last few innings.

You may label it "hatred", to accept that someone does not seem to fit in the plans for the team. Of course, it can only weaken the case you argue, when there is not substance. Many of us who are not convinced that SG can contribute as a player in Indian cricket, are only being brutally honest. For some fans of SG this amounts to hatred/injustice/treason. I say some becuase many of us had defended SG to the hilt leading up to the last World Cup and were proud of him during the famous Australian tour of India. But now we don't see Ganguly as the same player.

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gouravk

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2006, 08:50:01 PM »

Why did it take Sourav so long to see the light ???
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ramshorns

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #62 on: July 21, 2006, 08:50:10 PM »

Quote
I think Kban1 just misunderstood you.  No big deal.  But I like Oblermann too.  He talks sports on radio with Dan Patrick for an hr on ESPN.  He is very good at what he does. 

I watch Reilly on the re-runs at 11:00PM to have a few laughs.  I admit here that I like him on a few things.
I absolutely like Dan Patrick. He is the best Radio talk show host, IMHO. When I was in Jersey, they used to have an afternoon show on local NY sports radio called Mike and the Mad Dog. They were awesome!

Of course, I watch O'reilly for laughs once in a while too..but I turn him off when he gets on my nerves (I am getting old and there is only so much BS you can take). I mean you have to admit this guy is twisted..I'm not sure if his spin is a facade (like Ann Coulter) to make money or if he genuinely does believe in his own crap.
Mike and Maddog is still on.  Their radio show is also on TV. 

No doubt Dan Patrick is very good. 

My favorite is Jim Rome for the variety fun and sarcasm he brings into sports which is very funny. 

Anyways Rielly is definitely twisted and can quickly get on to your nerves. 

Did'nt you know that once he admitted it was absoultely about money when he had Michael Savage on his show(another firebrand) and they both have gotten on each other and then both had to admitt it was more about money than beliefs.
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fineleg

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2006, 08:50:52 PM »

Why did it take Sourav so long to see the light ???

Coz he did not attend UCV...trust me UCV is the way to see light...I now evangelize UCV.

PS: I've no clue what ur asking  ;D what light is SG supposed to have seen?
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ramshorns

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #64 on: July 21, 2006, 08:54:32 PM »

Just one question since I'm desperate to know a short answer (like I'm gonna get a short answer :) !)
So, did SG screw up now by talking abt stuff rather than playing cricket? or what he did was ok? (sorry, i havent read thru all posts above...will promise to do so later).
Depends on who you ask????IMO he did in this case.  This will come back to haunt him.
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fineleg

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #65 on: July 21, 2006, 08:59:58 PM »

Just one question since I'm desperate to know a short answer (like I'm gonna get a short answer :) !)
So, did SG screw up now by talking abt stuff rather than playing cricket? or what he did was ok? (sorry, i havent read thru all posts above...will promise to do so later).
Depends on who you ask????IMO he did in this case.  This will come back to haunt him.

Thanks Rams for the quick reply I was looking for.
That to some extent confirms my suspicion...Will be back later. Keep posting folks...eager to read all the analysis later.
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Jai

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #66 on: July 21, 2006, 09:10:50 PM »

rams:

Agree. I made that point before. He needs runs more than anything.


This is a nuisance he is getting dragged into but he does not have  a choice here

I am not sure Kban1.  I personally feel the people around him are not advising him right.  Probably SG is dragged into this but there are better ways to handle this than writing an e-mail.  After burning his hand with the e-mail issue once one would think that SG would have taken secrets ways to take care of things this time around.

This email was publicly declared by Mr. Mukherjee at a press conference. So there's no question of burning his fingers with this. He did it openly. It was not supposed to be secret as his brother himself was involved in it. And let's not confuse it with the other email. SG didn't burn his hand with the 'other' email on his own accord. Many of us in the past believed what SG is himself telling us now regarding that email and who leaked it. Regarding your opinion about there's a better way to handle this than writing an email, let's SG decide that. Other than focussing on his cricket part which we all agree, how to handle this issue without the email will be a serious debate amongst us I am sure. So let's not say that sending the email was wrong on SG's part. Other means would have been viewed as wrong by other people too.
Just curious as to why you want things to be released through third parties.  One would think if want to take a stand and say something you would do that directly.  This is where things get complicated when you involve others.  It is again my opinion.  I also feel in the long run it is going to hurt him.

What's the problem if he sends the email and supports Mr. Mukherjee and also mentions the misgivings of JD in it? The fact that he's supporting Mr. Mukherjee is good enough. The stand is regarding his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'using third party', then be it. I don't see any issue here. He's clearly lending his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'involving others', then it can't be helped. Mr. Mukherjee is fighting the election against JD and SG is supporting him. It's that simple really. Why would SG directly take it up with JD? And even if he does that, do you think certain people would stop calling him names like crybabies etc.? As a lot of people said, it's a lose-lose situation for anyways. The SG-bashers will not spare him anyway. So better do what he thinks is the right thing to do. About whether it'll hurt him in the long run, hasn't he suffered enough already? How worse can it get?
Jai:Something called legacy is what I had in mind (beyond cricket), when I said it hurts SG in the long run.  Ofcourse we have differing views on the issue.  No harm in it.

Fine. But let me ask you this. If you were in SG's position trying to make a comeback, will be more concerned 'right now' about the issues/wrongdoings you have facred/still facing or about what is your legacy going to be when you retire? Let's leave the 'focus on cricket' bit here because everyone unanimously agree on that point.

Good question - the point is though - SG is not gaining anything by having this public spat ... fact is - he used JD and JD used him - thats how
politics works. SG should get real about that and maintain whatever little dignity he is left with.

This public spat? Today was the first time anything came out from SG that is against JD and you have already reached the conclusion that he's not gaining anything. How? He has kept quiet so far. May be he has realised now that by keeping quiet, he's not going to gain anything.

** Yeah, sure - he'll gain Pawar's support and get back to Team India - what a great way to get back to the team !!

And if he doesn't get back to Team India, then what will be your reaction? Find another excuse to demean SG.

 And who are you to decide how much dignity SG is left with? Instead of asking SG to get real, I think it'll be prudent for you not to make absurd statements.
** I am an unbiased Indian cricket fan - unlike you :) I think it woul;d be prudent for you to use your brains instead of your heart.


ROFL. Do you know the meaning of the word 'unbiased'? I can use both brains and heart, you should learn to use at least one.

Let's stick to civil discussions with points that can be discussed and debated.
** Heh Heh - funny that *you* should talk about being civil - my posts are always civil ...

Don't think so...for someone who talks about how much dignity is left in a person without any basis, that's not sign of a civil post.

Neither you nor anyone can actually decide how much dignity SG or anyone else is left with. Alright?
** Nope - I sure can decide how much dignity SG is left with since I am observing all the tamasha just as you are ...
I am as entitled to my opinion as you are and you had better learn to live with that ... buddy.


Aah...the opinion thing. I know I know...opinion is like an A**hole, everyone has one. You can call yourself 'unbiased' and claim you know how much dignity is left in SG, but what's the use? I can make other tall claims without having to prove it. Also, just because you are entitled to your opinion, don't assume that people are not going to react if you post them here. It's a public discussion forum after all. So learn to live with public reactions.

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LosingNow

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #67 on: July 21, 2006, 09:16:56 PM »

but usually Oreilly is a big hit with those who tend to agree Republican

OK.

Let's see if I can explain this through set theory.

If A is a set of all people who are Republican or vote Republican and B is a set of all people who watch O'Reilly show (and bear with me, I do not have the "belongs to" and "intersection" symbols here and I cant draw cricles here)..then, the following are approximately true:

1. The set (A intersection B) is 60-70% of B. Which means 60-70% of O'reilly's audience is Republican. Yes, some independents and democrats watch him too.
2. There is a set A - (A intersection B),  these are Republicans who do not watch O'reilly. Which by rough estimates should be at least 30-40 times B..There were approx 50mm Republican voters (a very low estimate of Republican leaners in this country) in last presidential election and O'reilly's regular audience is at 1.2mm approx.

Given this and comparing the sizes of sets [A - (A intersection B)] {very large} and (A intersection B){small}, what is the probability a random person with Republican leanings (like me) would watch O'reilly regularly?

Bottomline: There are many more Reublicans who do not watch O'reilly than those who watch. So O'Reilly cannot be called a big hit among Republicans..yes, most of his "tiny" (not tiny by cable TV standards) audience is Republican.
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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #68 on: July 21, 2006, 09:21:11 PM »

rams:

Agree. I made that point before. He needs runs more than anything.


This is a nuisance he is getting dragged into but he does not have  a choice here

I am not sure Kban1.  I personally feel the people around him are not advising him right.  Probably SG is dragged into this but there are better ways to handle this than writing an e-mail.  After burning his hand with the e-mail issue once one would think that SG would have taken secrets ways to take care of things this time around.

This email was publicly declared by Mr. Mukherjee at a press conference. So there's no question of burning his fingers with this. He did it openly. It was not supposed to be secret as his brother himself was involved in it. And let's not confuse it with the other email. SG didn't burn his hand with the 'other' email on his own accord. Many of us in the past believed what SG is himself telling us now regarding that email and who leaked it. Regarding your opinion about there's a better way to handle this than writing an email, let's SG decide that. Other than focussing on his cricket part which we all agree, how to handle this issue without the email will be a serious debate amongst us I am sure. So let's not say that sending the email was wrong on SG's part. Other means would have been viewed as wrong by other people too.
Just curious as to why you want things to be released through third parties.  One would think if want to take a stand and say something you would do that directly.  This is where things get complicated when you involve others.  It is again my opinion.  I also feel in the long run it is going to hurt him.

What's the problem if he sends the email and supports Mr. Mukherjee and also mentions the misgivings of JD in it? The fact that he's supporting Mr. Mukherjee is good enough. The stand is regarding his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'using third party', then be it. I don't see any issue here. He's clearly lending his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'involving others', then it can't be helped. Mr. Mukherjee is fighting the election against JD and SG is supporting him. It's that simple really. Why would SG directly take it up with JD? And even if he does that, do you think certain people would stop calling him names like crybabies etc.? As a lot of people said, it's a lose-lose situation for anyways. The SG-bashers will not spare him anyway. So better do what he thinks is the right thing to do. About whether it'll hurt him in the long run, hasn't he suffered enough already? How worse can it get?
Jai:Something called legacy is what I had in mind (beyond cricket), when I said it hurts SG in the long run.  Ofcourse we have differing views on the issue.  No harm in it.

Fine. But let me ask you this. If you were in SG's position trying to make a comeback, will be more concerned 'right now' about the issues/wrongdoings you have facred/still facing or about what is your legacy going to be when you retire? Let's leave the 'focus on cricket' bit here because everyone unanimously agree on that point.

Good question - the point is though - SG is not gaining anything by having this public spat ... fact is - he used JD and JD used him - thats how
politics works. SG should get real about that and maintain whatever little dignity he is left with.

This public spat? Today was the first time anything came out from SG that is against JD and you have already reached the conclusion that he's not gaining anything. How? He has kept quiet so far. May be he has realised now that by keeping quiet, he's not going to gain anything.

** Yeah, sure - he'll gain Pawar's support and get back to Team India - what a great way to get back to the team !!

And if he doesn't get back to Team India, then what will be your reaction? Find another excuse to demean SG.

 And who are you to decide how much dignity SG is left with? Instead of asking SG to get real, I think it'll be prudent for you not to make absurd statements.
** I am an unbiased Indian cricket fan - unlike you :) I think it woul;d be prudent for you to use your brains instead of your heart.


ROFL. Do you know the meaning of the word 'unbiased'? I can use both brains and heart, you should learn to use at least one.

Let's stick to civil discussions with points that can be discussed and debated.
** Heh Heh - funny that *you* should talk about being civil - my posts are always civil ...

Don't think so...for someone who talks about how much dignity is left in a person without any basis, that's not sign of a civil post.

Neither you nor anyone can actually decide how much dignity SG or anyone else is left with. Alright?
** Nope - I sure can decide how much dignity SG is left with since I am observing all the tamasha just as you are ...
I am as entitled to my opinion as you are and you had better learn to live with that ... buddy.


Aah...the opinion thing. I know I know...opinion is like an A**hole, everyone has one. You can call yourself 'unbiased' and claim you know how much dignity is left in SG, but what's the use? I can make other tall claims without having to prove it. Also, just because you are entitled to your opinion, don't assume that people are not going to react if you post them here. It's a public discussion forum after all. So learn to live with public reactions.


Jai - after reading your responses - I can only laugh - you're either SG himself or his relative ...
else why would you get so personal and offensive ??

So that said .. I will say that your rebuttal points are so emotional and devoid of logic that I'd be wasting my time responding in kind ..
Whatever , man ....
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ramshorns

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2006, 09:24:58 PM »

but usually Oreilly is a big hit with those who tend to agree Republican

OK.

Let's see if I can explain this through set theory.

If A is a set of all people who are Republican or vote Republican and B is a set of all people who watch O'Reilly show (and bear with me, I do not have the "belongs to" and "intersection" symbols here and I cant draw cricles here)..then, the following are approximately true:

1. The set (A intersection B) is 60-70% of B. Which means 60-70% of O'reilly's audience is Republican. Yes, some independents and democrats watch him too.
2. There is a set A - (A intersection B),  these are Republicans who do not watch O'reilly. Which by rough estimates should be at least 30-40 times B..There were approx 50mm Republican voters (a very low estimate of Republican leaners in this country) in last presidential election and O'reilly's regular audience is at 1.2mm approx.

Given this and comparing the sizes of sets [A - (A intersection B)] {very large} and (A intersection B){small}, what is the probability a random person with Republican leanings (like me) would watch O'reilly regularly?

Bottomline: There are many more Reublicans who do not watch O'reilly than those who watch. So O'Reilly cannot be called a big hit among Republicans..yes, most of his "tiny" (not tiny by cable TV standards) audience is Republican.
Glad I remember the set theory from class 12.  Wuh...... :D :D :D :D :D
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kban1

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2006, 09:32:26 PM »

pietersan:

Quote
Kban, I assume you refer to Test cricket here

Yes

Quote
Did he do so well that he justified a chance? Is it unlikely that people were looking towards the future and felt that Ganguly was done based on his last few innings.


yes, it was against a minnow, but he had a hundred within 3 tests when he was dumped.

Lets see the sequence - 101, 17, 5 (washed out match vs SL at Chennai), 40, 39 - dropped on the excuse that he was a bad influence (refuted by SRT in his convo with Pawar later)

Out of this the 5,40, and 39 were scored because KM and GC's hands were forced by the other 3 selectors outvoting KM and the SZ selector. So he was selected for 2 tests to be dropped for the third.

During this phase, SG after a County season in which he averaged 60+, was averaging 60+ in the domestic season with 3 hundreds.

So he was in form and opportunities were denied --first to play Kaif in T3 vs SL and then he got 1 chance to bat vs Pak at karachi where he played well but did not score enough to make it an open and shut case.

Essentially he had 5 innings at bat spread over 6 tests (inclusive of 2 of the tests he did not play in) and 2 series.

Quote
You may label it "hatred", to accept that someone does not seem to fit in the plans for the team. Of course, it can only weaken the case you argue, when there is not substance. Many of us who are not convinced that SG can contribute as a player in Indian cricket, are only being brutally honest. For some fans of SG this amounts to hatred/injustice/treason. I say some becuase many of us had defended SG to the hilt leading up to the last World Cup and were proud of him during the famous Australian tour of India. But now we don't see Ganguly as the same player.


You missed the gist of my post when I mentioned hatred.

Can you honestly say that there is no residue of malice on our coach's part in SG's exclusion from the squad ?

Can you honestly say he did not deserve a decent run, the kind that was extended to kaif ? Kaif got what a player trying to find his nick should get --shouldn't the same courtesy be extended to someone who has played and performed more than kaif has ?

I have no problems with people who honestly believe SG has nothing to offer to Indian cricket --he is past his sell by date. To me, its a difference of opinion between them and me.

That is not what the "hatred" reference is for.

But even a person who does not believe in SG's viability should be able to see differing standards when they are being applied right in front of our own eyes. Brutally honest should not be reserved for occasions when it agrees with our wishes and desires --its application should be uniform.

When some of this group choose to ignore politics applied against a person but choose to highlight and deride politics or semblance thereof when SG is the beneficiary, it reeks of double standards.

Can you deny that some in this DG are not in favor of status quo or the coach or management simply because it is this set up that allows Sg to be out of the team ? If so, which I believe it is for several (not all), then the agenda is SG centric --it has nothing to do with the team or the coach or the management --the support for this group stems a s a derivative of the agenda against SG.

This is the select group for whom the hatred description is meant. I do not throw about words casually, so my comments are based on careful observations of a person's comments over numerous threads, chat room comments etc.

Sorry if that comment seemed universal, it was not --it was meant for a few select members who get nothing but great joy at pounding SG with full vitriol.

Look around, read some posts and you will notice how every occasion is another one to "dance on SG's grave"  -thats a metaphor.

Not seeing Ganguly as the same player as before is ok to me, not showing the minimum and common decency due another human being and being devoid of any thankfulness to a sporting hero (past hero he may be to some, but  ahero nonetheless) is whats grating and hence the sobriquet -- blinded by hatred.
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kban1

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2006, 09:33:30 PM »

LN:

Thanks for the effort at set theory -not necessary. I already granted you that I misunderstood your humor wrt Bill O'Reilly.

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kban1

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2006, 09:41:47 PM »

fineleg:

Quote
So, did SG screw up now by talking abt stuff rather than playing cricket? or what he did was ok?


He should be playing cricket, which he is. He should be scoring runs consistently, which right now he is not.

Did not talk about stuff -he sent an email which was revealed (per some newsreports he wanted it public, per the Commissioner of Police - private email to brother).  Lets say the revealing had his tacit support -- should he have done that ?

My opinion  -- no, it might hurt him.

Did he have  a choice wrt to revealing it or not ? Hard to say, but I suspect he could have kept it private

Did he have  achoice in terms of taking a stand ?

NO --I have explained earlier why, not going to rehash it. He is  a political pawn here
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JJ

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #73 on: July 21, 2006, 09:45:51 PM »

pietersan:

Quote
Kban, I assume you refer to Test cricket here

Yes

Quote
Did he do so well that he justified a chance? Is it unlikely that people were looking towards the future and felt that Ganguly was done based on his last few innings.


yes, it was against a minnow, but he had a hundred within 3 tests when he was dumped.

Lets see the sequence - 101, 17, 5 (washed out match vs SL at Chennai), 40, 39 - dropped on the excuse that he was a bad influence (refuted by SRT in his convo with Pawar later)

Out of this the 5,40, and 39 were scored because KM and GC's hands were forced by the other 3 selectors outvoting KM and the SZ selector. So he was selected for 2 tests to be dropped for the third.

During this phase, SG after a County season in which he averaged 60+, was averaging 60+ in the domestic season with 3 hundreds.

So he was in form and opportunities were denied --first to play Kaif in T3 vs SL and then he got 1 chance to bat vs Pak at karachi where he played well but did not score enough to make it an open and shut case.

Essentially he had 5 innings at bat spread over 6 tests (inclusive of 2 of the tests he did not play in) and 2 series.

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You may label it "hatred", to accept that someone does not seem to fit in the plans for the team. Of course, it can only weaken the case you argue, when there is not substance. Many of us who are not convinced that SG can contribute as a player in Indian cricket, are only being brutally honest. For some fans of SG this amounts to hatred/injustice/treason. I say some becuase many of us had defended SG to the hilt leading up to the last World Cup and were proud of him during the famous Australian tour of India. But now we don't see Ganguly as the same player.


You missed the gist of my post when I mentioned hatred.

Can you honestly say that there is no residue of malice on our coach's part in SG's exclusion from the squad ?

Can you honestly say he did not deserve a decent run, the kind that was extended to kaif ? Kaif got what a player trying to find his nick should get --shouldn't the same courtesy be extended to someone who has played and performed more than kaif has ?

I have no problems with people who honestly believe SG has nothing to offer to Indian cricket --he is past his sell by date. To me, its a difference of opinion between them and me.

That is not what the "hatred" reference is for.

But even a person who does not believe in SG's viability should be able to see differing standards when they are being applied right in front of our own eyes. Brutally honest should not be reserved for occasions when it agrees with our wishes and desires --its application should be uniform.

When some of this group choose to ignore politics applied against a person but choose to highlight and deride politics or semblance thereof when SG is the beneficiary, it reeks of double standards.

Can you deny that some in this DG are not in favor of status quo or the coach or management simply because it is this set up that allows Sg to be out of the team ? If so, which I believe it is for several (not all), then the agenda is SG centric --it has nothing to do with the team or the coach or the management --the support for this group stems a s a derivative of the agenda against SG.

This is the select group for whom the hatred description is meant. I do not throw about words casually, so my comments are based on careful observations of a person's comments over numerous threads, chat room comments etc.

Sorry if that comment seemed universal, it was not --it was meant for a few select members who get nothing but great joy at pounding SG with full vitriol.

Look around, read some posts and you will notice how every occasion is another one to "dance on SG's grave"  -thats a metaphor.

Not seeing Ganguly as the same player as before is ok to me, not showing the minimum and common decency due another human being and being devoid of any thankfulness to a sporting hero (past hero he may be to some, but  ahero nonetheless) is whats grating and hence the sobriquet -- blinded by hatred.

good post, Kban - I agree with you on most points except that while there is certainly a faction of this DG that has blind hatred towards SG - there is also equally a part of this DG that has  "blind support for SG/"blind hatred for GC" -- I for one is one of those who believe SG is past his sell-by date.


I
« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 09:47:46 PM by JJ »
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Jai

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2006, 09:52:13 PM »

rams:

Agree. I made that point before. He needs runs more than anything.


This is a nuisance he is getting dragged into but he does not have  a choice here

I am not sure Kban1.  I personally feel the people around him are not advising him right.  Probably SG is dragged into this but there are better ways to handle this than writing an e-mail.  After burning his hand with the e-mail issue once one would think that SG would have taken secrets ways to take care of things this time around.

This email was publicly declared by Mr. Mukherjee at a press conference. So there's no question of burning his fingers with this. He did it openly. It was not supposed to be secret as his brother himself was involved in it. And let's not confuse it with the other email. SG didn't burn his hand with the 'other' email on his own accord. Many of us in the past believed what SG is himself telling us now regarding that email and who leaked it. Regarding your opinion about there's a better way to handle this than writing an email, let's SG decide that. Other than focussing on his cricket part which we all agree, how to handle this issue without the email will be a serious debate amongst us I am sure. So let's not say that sending the email was wrong on SG's part. Other means would have been viewed as wrong by other people too.
Just curious as to why you want things to be released through third parties.  One would think if want to take a stand and say something you would do that directly.  This is where things get complicated when you involve others.  It is again my opinion.  I also feel in the long run it is going to hurt him.

What's the problem if he sends the email and supports Mr. Mukherjee and also mentions the misgivings of JD in it? The fact that he's supporting Mr. Mukherjee is good enough. The stand is regarding his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'using third party', then be it. I don't see any issue here. He's clearly lending his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'involving others', then it can't be helped. Mr. Mukherjee is fighting the election against JD and SG is supporting him. It's that simple really. Why would SG directly take it up with JD? And even if he does that, do you think certain people would stop calling him names like crybabies etc.? As a lot of people said, it's a lose-lose situation for anyways. The SG-bashers will not spare him anyway. So better do what he thinks is the right thing to do. About whether it'll hurt him in the long run, hasn't he suffered enough already? How worse can it get?
Jai:Something called legacy is what I had in mind (beyond cricket), when I said it hurts SG in the long run.  Ofcourse we have differing views on the issue.  No harm in it.

Fine. But let me ask you this. If you were in SG's position trying to make a comeback, will be more concerned 'right now' about the issues/wrongdoings you have facred/still facing or about what is your legacy going to be when you retire? Let's leave the 'focus on cricket' bit here because everyone unanimously agree on that point.

Good question - the point is though - SG is not gaining anything by having this public spat ... fact is - he used JD and JD used him - thats how
politics works. SG should get real about that and maintain whatever little dignity he is left with.

This public spat? Today was the first time anything came out from SG that is against JD and you have already reached the conclusion that he's not gaining anything. How? He has kept quiet so far. May be he has realised now that by keeping quiet, he's not going to gain anything.

** Yeah, sure - he'll gain Pawar's support and get back to Team India - what a great way to get back to the team !!

And if he doesn't get back to Team India, then what will be your reaction? Find another excuse to demean SG.

 And who are you to decide how much dignity SG is left with? Instead of asking SG to get real, I think it'll be prudent for you not to make absurd statements.
** I am an unbiased Indian cricket fan - unlike you :) I think it woul;d be prudent for you to use your brains instead of your heart.


ROFL. Do you know the meaning of the word 'unbiased'? I can use both brains and heart, you should learn to use at least one.

Let's stick to civil discussions with points that can be discussed and debated.
** Heh Heh - funny that *you* should talk about being civil - my posts are always civil ...

Don't think so...for someone who talks about how much dignity is left in a person without any basis, that's not sign of a civil post.

Neither you nor anyone can actually decide how much dignity SG or anyone else is left with. Alright?
** Nope - I sure can decide how much dignity SG is left with since I am observing all the tamasha just as you are ...
I am as entitled to my opinion as you are and you had better learn to live with that ... buddy.


Aah...the opinion thing. I know I know...opinion is like an A**hole, everyone has one. You can call yourself 'unbiased' and claim you know how much dignity is left in SG, but what's the use? I can make other tall claims without having to prove it. Also, just because you are entitled to your opinion, don't assume that people are not going to react if you post them here. It's a public discussion forum after all. So learn to live with public reactions.


Jai - after reading your responses - I can only laugh - you're either SG himself or his relative ...
else why would you get so personal and offensive ??

So that said .. I will say that your rebuttal points are so emotional and devoid of logic that I'd be wasting my time responding in kind ..
Whatever , man ....


I had told you earlier to be civil in your responses, but you claimed your posts are always civil. If by supporting SG, I become SG himself or his relative, then what about you? Just because you included the phrase "I am an unbiased fan", do you really think people are going to believe it? This has always made me laugh. All anti-SG folks while referring to themselves use this term 'unbiased fan' and accuse anyone for even remotely supporting SG for being his mouthpiece, his relative etc. etc. Why so? Don't you guys have a better logic to defend yourselves? And yeah, my points are devoid of logic, and you are quoting from Bible when you say that SG has little dignity left. Learn to argue with points and logic first, both of which you lack now. Your posts right now are full of hatred. Using the disclaimer 'I am an unbiased fan' is not going to help. There's hardly anyone on this DG. Grow up without wasting any more time.
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LosingNow

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #75 on: July 21, 2006, 09:54:06 PM »


good post, Kban - I agree with you on most points except that while there is certainly a faction of this DG that has blind hatred towards SG - there is also equally a part of this DG that has  "blind support for SG/"blind hatred for GC" -- I for one is one of those who believe SG is past his sell-by date.

jj : http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=3075.0

kban: How about an orientation thread (with links to all the DG threads that capture some of the more "revealing" debates we have had in the past) for freshies ;). That way they will get up to speed with the community ;D ;D
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kban1

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #76 on: July 21, 2006, 09:59:42 PM »

JJ:

Quote
while there is certainly a fcation of this DG that has blind hatred towards SG - there is so equally a part of this DG in "blind support for SG/"blind hatred for GC"
category - would you not agree ?

Of course there is. Agree
« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 10:04:39 PM by kban1 »
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kban1

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #77 on: July 21, 2006, 10:02:02 PM »

LN:

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kban: How about an orientation thread (with links to all the DG threads that capture some of the more "revealing" debates we have had in the past) for freshies . That way they will get up to speed with the community 


Now thats a novel idea -we should make the thread a sticky
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prfsr

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #78 on: July 21, 2006, 10:16:11 PM »

A Bengali newspaper reports that the email was indeed a personal email to elder brother SG, who handed it over to the candidate who published it. Now the elder brother is decidedly less smart than SG and has put his foot in his mouth in the past. So it MAY be that SG did not want to publicize this OR it may have been his chosen way to publicize his message without seemingly violating the BCCI contract.

In any case, the email appears to be authentic. So let's ask ourselves the following two questions:

1. Can SG realistically come back to the side before WC 07 WITHOUT entering the good books of Pawar et al? While in principle he could score 4 200+ knocks in successive OD's and the rest of the team could be 0 all out in the next 10 OD's, people in the real world know that *any* performance can be discounted (note ZK: "he is not in our plans) by the current BCCI. So realistically SG's chances given his form and the inclination of the BCCI is ZERO.

2. Can SG  realistically come back to the side before WC 07 WITH the backing of Pawar et al?
There is a 5% chance this will happen. So one may argue that SG *HAS* to do what the BCCI asks him to do, not just for this 5% chance of a recall but even to get future coaching positions etc.

As it turns out (and KBan has described this well enough) there are bigger political players involved in this game and SG pretty much cannot say no.

My feeling, and it is ONLY that, is that SG has given up -- he is a smart guy and realizes that there is little chance to make a comeback. He knows what form he is in and the current BCCI. So this is the beginning of SG coming to town. I look forward to his memoir after the WC next year.

-P
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LosingNow

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Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #79 on: July 21, 2006, 10:20:10 PM »

not just for this 5% chance of a recall but even to get future coaching positions etc.

Coach Ganguly - after GC leaves, I suppose. Man, the fielding drills on game days would be something to watch. ;D ;D
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