Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Down

Author Topic: New Can of Worms from Ganguly  (Read 19381 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

kban1

  • Administrator
  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,966
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #120 on: July 22, 2006, 07:32:39 PM »

flute:

Quote
Its really amusing how people support playing politics while they castigate GC & KM for kinds of imagined things

You have already made up your mind -its imagined, why argue ?

Quote
KM's performance is bad irrespevtive of inefficiencies of cricket system , because we should not use it as excuse to judge KM. In fact, your expectations should not be lowered to judge KM.(Kban1 said something to this effect recently).


Yes the inefficiencies of the Indian selection system make him a blundering spokesperson when faced with questions.

It affects his decision making capabilities such as scheduling selection meetings on the 1st day of a tour match rather than the 3rd day.

The inefficiencies of the selection process makes him declare openly that one particular player will never be considered for selection irrespective of performance.

The inefficiencies of the selection system cause ZK to be left out after a stellar County season

The inefficiencies of the selection system make KM and his band of merry men select Dinesh Mongia after his One day performances in the County have been worth zilch.

The inefficiencies of the selection system make them blood a 19 yr old leggie into the test team without enough prior exposure.

The inefficiencies of the selection system dictate that form and fitness need to be proved by one player while SRT is above that.

Same inefficiencies make the selectors chose VRV Singh for an international match when in fact he is injured.

Same inefficiencies result in selection of VRV Singh over Munaf Patel after a match in which Munaf takes 10 wickets and VRV 3 wickets.

Quote
On this issue, Kban1 is willing to lower the expectations and standards and say "SG is only being forced by circumstances".   Yeah sure.

Who lowered expectations or standards ? Making an observation about the dilemmas a person faces and stating it is lowering expectations ?

All I said is he had to commit to one side or the other --either JD or CM, and that is based on ground realities.

Do you even live in the real world my friend ? Do you understand politics and how it plays out ?

Quote
2. GC's finger wagging or underarm tactics were quoted adnauseam on this DG to castigate him and to put him down.


Rightly so --unlike some on this DG, some of us understand our culture as well as the western culture enough to know what is acceptable or not. Finger wagging is not -- you can have your own opinions and be satisfied with it, to me it is not an acceptable behavior, especialy when it comes from a person in position.

Underarm tactics --never made a statement about it ever but it was against the spirit of the game, plain and simple, Today it is against the laws of the game.

Quote
But, coming to SG  
a.his meeting JD few hours before the review committe meeting was OK

And so -- you were there as a fly on the wall to attest to the fact that JD promised to go easy on him ?

People meet with adjudicators all the time --lawyers meet with the judge before a case and during a case in the judge's chambers --does that make the judge rule in favor of that lawyer ?

and in case you forgot, JD along with Mahendra still made up a miniority of the panel --5 members total, 3 others (SMG, SV, & RS) were out of this.

Quote
b. His non-performance until Zim tour was OK

What a laughable argument --who denied he was not performing. I am on record saying he should have been hauled up for his lack of performance against Pak.

Quote
c. his meeting with Pawar is OK, of course he was only invited to meeting.

Discussed before. Your repetition of a well established and discussed episode attests to your abilities at generating innuendo.

Its also interesting how events with proper explanations that people with some experience in real life are able to comprehend appear suspicious to you while events with far more substance appear to pass muster with you.

Quote
d. His writing emails and getting involved in politics is OK, of course he is only being forced into all this. After all, he has to think about his business interests too. how very convenient

Try running a business in India with political hostility dogging you.

And why was GC's writing an email ok with you ? After all, he was coming back in a week and was slated to meet with BCCI to deliver the coach's tour report. Why the advance notice ? That would not have anything to do with infleuncing opinion and creating a conducive platform for his comments now, would it ? And why was it ok for GC to send emails to journos describing players as cancer --that would not have had anything to do with influencing public opinion, would it ? Of course that is not politics -- because that fulfilled some people's desire to see SG out of the squad.

It was a courageous move to be cannonized as legend just as KM's decision to drop SG was a gutsy move because KM waited for the correct political alignment to do it.

Speaking of politics, how about an Union minister heading the BCCI and dragging the former incumbent on charges of fraud -- acharge refuted by the Mumbai court as reeking of political influence and malice ?

How about the BCCI asking SG's dad to run against JD with the carrot of SG returning to the team as the reward ? Not a bribe ? Not a poltical quid pro quo ?

How about keeping SG out with one sundry excuse or the other for 10 months -- not political ? Ah according to you, SG should have been dropped earlier (but was not) and so this action is justifiable -- so 2 wrongs make a right!!!

How about Pawar & the CM of WB agreeing to get JD out with the political fallout being assistance to WB ag sector and possibly (not sure but possible -SG's return to contention) -- does not strike you as political ?

Amidst all these events, if SG writes an email --knowing fully well that he is in the wilderness (wrt selection) due to politics -- and the only way to even be considered for selection (actual selection will anyways depend on form, which currently is not in evidence) is to get back in the good books of the "Pawar(s) that be"  - only then it is political!!

And of course the fact that he has been a political pawn and is still being used as one doesn't matter. Take everything in a vacuum when it suits you and take everything in sum total (inclusive of inneuendos)when it suits you -- mold the argument, the criteria for judgment, and the reference point by working backwards from the already agreed upon conclusion -- and the conclusion is there for everyone to see -- ITS SG's FAULT

Quote
e. His changing loyalties from JD is OK. afterall he is only letting his opinion known.

Never defended that. I do not agree with it either because I beleieve in loyalty and gratitude. Having said that I shall make the following points:

1) In my life, I have been in a position where a person who I have been grateful to  / loyal to has turned around and used me. So a pertinent question is how long does loyalty last when you perceive a person harming you -- its a dilemma and everyone responds to it based on their situation and the level of their personal outrage which is commensurate with the situation at hand. On this note, I am not SG and do not know his situtation.

2) If changing loyalties (as you define in a vacuum), could you not ask the same question of Gregory Stephen Chapell who acknowledges SG getting him the job ?

Could not the same question of loyalty be asked of Rahul Dravid --after all SG is his friend, ex captain, co player etc etc etc.

There is a reason why we do not accuse them of it --its because in their mind SG brings more negatives than positives. Some may agree with that assessment, some like me do not -- but does not make for hue and cry questioning GC & RD as human beings, their level of loyalty, or lowering of standards when judging them.

Quote
No matter what the apologists of SG say, one thing is for sure. With the unholy alliance that SG maintained with JD all along, benefitting from it a lot (right from getting chance in the team to getting captaincy, to getting long rope for his non-performance), controversy with GC, non-performance in the last 2 yrs of his career, backstabbing JD, all these effectively destroyed SG's legacy. It is very difficult to hold SG in the same high esteem as SRT or RD.

what unholy alliance ?

Repeating a misstatement a 1000 times over does not make it the truth.

The biggest benefit SG got from JD was having a team of his choice --getting the players he wanted. And look where it got us --we improved as a team.

The secondary benefit to SG was that SG was kept captain even when he was not performing --which was when --a 3 test series against Pak. So in effect he should not have been captain for the Zim tour. Fine, 2 tests and a ODI series --water under the bridge --he is no longer a captain

Getting captaincy -- so which captain in the past has gotten the post without influence ? SMG, Kapil, Azhar (mian, captain banoge), SRT all are included. And he delivered as captain picking the team from the depths of match fixing, so your arguments ring hollow.

His selection in the team --he scored 2 hundreds in back to back tests including debut. Get your facts straight please.

Controversy with GC -- every issue that was discussed in the review committee was decided in his favor (unfortunately they did not discuss the VVS issue). And who benefitted --last I checked GC is still the coach, an idol being worshipped by some on this DG while SG is out of the team, being ridiculed and castigated left right and center by most.

Non performance in 2 years --your uninformed views are a riot. Look up cricinfo and then make statements --please.

Backstabbing JD --using your logic, the same backstabbing that GC and RD indulged in ? Oh, I forgot, you hold them in high esteem.

At least be consistent in your logic, even if its your logic. For the record, I do not subscribe to that black and white view --see my comments above about loyalty.

Very difficult to hold SG in the same esteem as RD & SRT -- for a thing to be difficult, forget very difficult, one needs to try.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 07:34:40 PM by kban1 »
Logged

kban1

  • Administrator
  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,966
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #121 on: July 22, 2006, 07:39:25 PM »

rams:

Quote
No denying the fact that SG overall is not handling the issues in the right way at all.  When it is all said and done he will be look down upon by many as someone who played it dirty weather it is true or not. 


Agree. Perceptions will vary about this. Although this situation I feel is Catch 22

Quote
I for one think he could have handled this whole sequence of things starting right from the GC eposide to this latest one in a better way.  I do not think he has shown good maturity handling matters outside the cricket field.   He may feel he might have been wronged and he probably has good reasons for that.
 

Agree. Huge blunder with respect to the Zim episode. But the other players have hardly been forthcoming in burying the hatchet.

Quote
Being the ex-captain of India, it comes with a price and it is in situations like these people expect a lot from you.  And I think SG is behind in count with regards to that.


Agree again, But the caveat is expectations and groundrealities are sometimes different --he is suffering for not realizing the difference between perception and reality.
Logged

flute202020

  • Guest
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #122 on: July 22, 2006, 09:00:35 PM »

flute:

Quote
Its really amusing how people support playing politics while they castigate GC & KM for kinds of imagined things

You have already made up your mind -its imagined, why argue ?

Quote
KM's performance is bad irrespevtive of inefficiencies of cricket system , because we should not use it as excuse to judge KM. In fact, your expectations should not be lowered to judge KM.(Kban1 said something to this effect recently).


Yes the inefficiencies of the Indian selection system make him a blundering spokesperson when faced with questions.

It affects his decision making capabilities such as scheduling selection meetings on the 1st day of a tour match rather than the 3rd day.

The inefficiencies of the selection process makes him declare openly that one particular player will never be considered for selection irrespective of performance.

The inefficiencies of the selection system cause ZK to be left out after a stellar County season

The inefficiencies of the selection system make KM and his band of merry men select Dinesh Mongia after his One day performances in the County have been worth zilch.

The inefficiencies of the selection system make them blood a 19 yr old leggie into the test team without enough prior exposure.

The inefficiencies of the selection system dictate that form and fitness need to be proved by one player while SRT is above that.

Same inefficiencies make the selectors chose VRV Singh for an international match when in fact he is injured.

Same inefficiencies result in selection of VRV Singh over Munaf Patel after a match in which Munaf takes 10 wickets and VRV 3 wickets.
whatever inefficiencies you quote, please remember, KM was the selector even during SG/JW's regime. if you are willing to give credit to SG/JW, logic demands that you give credit to selectors too. lets not pick and choose here. As for inefficiencies goes, I can come up with a longer list for SG too.


Quote
Quote
On this issue, Kban1 is willing to lower the expectations and standards and say "SG is only being forced by circumstances".   Yeah sure.

Who lowered expectations or standards ? Making an observation about the dilemmas a person faces and stating it is lowering expectations ?

All I said is he had to commit to one side or the other --either JD or CM, and that is based on ground realities.

Do you even live in the real world my friend ? Do you understand politics and how it plays out ?
you are hilarious my friend. How about same political pressures on KM? how aBOUT jd'S interference in SG's selection? why are you discounting the same parameters when you so clearly called him a fool and castigated him? his political pressures doesn't count? poor old SG is the only one facing dilemmas ? dilemma for what? basically to find the best possible way to resurrect his flagging career. get involved in all the games outside the filed, but show zilch on the ground and expect to get selected. very nice.



Quote
Quote
2. GC's finger wagging or underarm tactics were quoted adnauseam on this DG to castigate him and to put him down.


Rightly so --unlike some on this DG, some of us understand our culture as well as the western culture enough to know what is acceptable or not. Finger wagging is not -- you can have your own opinions and be satisfied with it, to me it is not an acceptable behavior, especialy when it comes from a person in position.

Underarm tactics --never made a statement about it ever but it was against the spirit of the game, plain and simple, Today it is against the laws of the game.
remember kban1, while you ask of me the same, the issue was of making a "HUGE DEAL" out of it , compared to it being righ or wrong. I am sure you know the exact tenor & tone of argument on this, but somehow choose to ignore it for obvious reasons.

[/quote]
Quote
But, coming to SG  
a.his meeting JD few hours before the review committe meeting was OK

And so -- you were there as a fly on the wall to attest to the fact that JD promised to go easy on him ?

People meet with adjudicators all the time --lawyers meet with the judge before a case and during a case in the judge's chambers --does that make the judge rule in favor of that lawyer ?

and in case you forgot, JD along with Mahendra still made up a miniority of the panel --5 members total, 3 others (SMG, SV, & RS) were out of this.[/quote]
nope, going by the clarity with which you construct your elobarate "what if" scenarios, it seems like in fact you were the lizard on the wall.
do you know lawyers are prohibited from  meeting the judge outside the court and that it is highly discounraged? don't you know the difference between approaching the judge while the court is in session or meting him in his chambers Vs meeting the judge at his home? don't you see the obvious conflict of interest in it? why is it so difficult to recognize an obvious unethical thing ?


Quote
Quote
b. His non-performance until Zim tour was OK

What a laughable argument --who denied he was not performing. I am on record saying he should have been hauled up for his lack of performance against Pak.
funnily enough, the whole post was not aimed at you. there are quite few SG fans on this DG who refused to see the non-performance at any point in time.


Quote
Quote
c. his meeting with Pawar is OK, of course he was only invited to meeting.

Discussed before. Your repetition of a well established and discussed episode attests to your abilities at generating innuendo.

Its also interesting how events with proper explanations that people with some experience in real life are able to comprehend appear suspicious to you while events with far more substance appear to pass muster with you.
yep. Only SG fans and supporters live in real world, rest of us are in dream world. Hence SG is out of the team  :D

anyway,to jog your memory, it is not a well established fact as you make it out to be. I did show evidence at game played thru media and also one report which said Sg seeked meeting with pawar. there is no enough evidence either way, but you choose to state it an established, known fact, which is what I point out. In fact, you exhibit this tendency a lot of times, after a long discussion, go off and claim it as established fact. interesting.

[uote]
Quote
d. His writing emails and getting involved in politics is OK, of course he is only being forced into all this. After all, he has to think about his business interests too. how very convenient

Try running a business in India with political hostility dogging you. [/quote]
Narayana murthy to job your memory. why are you willing to use it as an excuse /defense now when for KM, you were so not willing to allow that factor in evaluating him? why do you prefer to call him "fair weather" guy when you are not willing to say the same about SG?


Quote
And why was GC's writing an email ok with you ? After all, he was coming back in a week and was slated to meet with BCCI to deliver the coach's tour report. Why the advance notice ? That would not have anything to do with infleuncing opinion and creating a conducive platform for his comments now, would it ? And why was it ok for GC to send emails to journos describing players as cancer --that would not have had anything to do with influencing public opinion, would it ? Of course that is not politics -- because that fulfilled some people's desire to see SG out of the squad.

It was a courageous move to be cannonized as legend just as KM's decision to drop SG was a gutsy move because KM waited for the correct political alignment to do it.

Speaking of politics, how about an Union minister heading the BCCI and dragging the former incumbent on charges of fraud -- acharge refuted by the Mumbai court as reeking of political influence and malice ?

How about the BCCI asking SG's dad to run against JD with the carrot of SG returning to the team as the reward ? Not a bribe ? Not a poltical quid pro quo ?

How about keeping SG out with one sundry excuse or the other for 10 months -- not political ? Ah according to you, SG should have been dropped earlier (but was not) and so this action is justifiable -- so 2 wrongs make a right!!!

How about Pawar & the CM of WB agreeing to get JD out with the political fallout being assistance to WB ag sector and possibly (not sure but possible -SG's return to contention) -- does not strike you as political ?

Amidst all these events, if SG writes an email --knowing fully well that he is in the wilderness (wrt selection) due to politics -- and the only way to even be considered for selection (actual selection will anyways depend on form, which currently is not in evidence) is to get back in the good books of the "Pawar(s) that be"  - only then it is political!!

And of course the fact that he has been a political pawn and is still being used as one doesn't matter. Take everything in a vacuum when it suits you and take everything in sum total (inclusive of inneuendos)when it suits you -- mold the argument, the criteria for judgment, and the reference point by working backwards from the already agreed upon conclusion -- and the conclusion is there for everyone to see -- ITS SG's FAULT
you talk of SG being political pawn as if it is "Sun rises in the east" type of fact. For all I we know, SG indeed indulge in politics all thru career, running off to JD for every lil thing, making & breaking careers on his whims,clinging to captaincy for too long, staying in the team blocking other better players, and suddenly he becomes a pawn in political game. Its really funny that a guy whose non-selection can cause incidents in parliament, strikes, rasta rokos etc., a guy with so much mass support is a political pawn. very interesting.

Quote
Quote
e. His changing loyalties from JD is OK. afterall he is only letting his opinion known.

Never defended that. I do not agree with it either because I beleieve in loyalty and gratitude. Having said that I shall make the following points:

1) In my life, I have been in a position where a person who I have been grateful to  / loyal to has turned around and used me. So a pertinent question is how long does loyalty last when you perceive a person harming you -- its a dilemma and everyone responds to it based on their situation and the level of their personal outrage which is commensurate with the situation at hand. On this note, I am not SG and do not know his situtation.

2) If changing loyalties (as you define in a vacuum), could you not ask the same question of Gregory Stephen Chapell who acknowledges SG getting him the job ?

Could not the same question of loyalty be asked of Rahul Dravid --after all SG is his friend, ex captain, co player etc etc etc.

There is a reason why we do not accuse them of it --its because in their mind SG brings more negatives than positives. Some may agree with that assessment, some like me do not -- but does not make for hue and cry questioning GC & RD as human beings, their level of loyalty, or lowering of standards when judging them.

Quote
No matter what the apologists of SG say, one thing is for sure. With the unholy alliance that SG maintained with JD all along, benefitting from it a lot (right from getting chance in the team to getting captaincy, to getting long rope for his non-performance), controversy with GC, non-performance in the last 2 yrs of his career, backstabbing JD, all these effectively destroyed SG's legacy. It is very difficult to hold SG in the same high esteem as SRT or RD.

what unholy alliance ?

Repeating a misstatement a 1000 times over does not make it the truth.

The biggest benefit SG got from JD was having a team of his choice --getting the players he wanted. And look where it got us --we improved as a team.

The secondary benefit to SG was that SG was kept captain even when he was not performing --which was when --a 3 test series against Pak. So in effect he should not have been captain for the Zim tour. Fine, 2 tests and a ODI series --water under the bridge --he is no longer a captain

Getting captaincy -- so which captain in the past has gotten the post without influence ? SMG, Kapil, Azhar (mian, captain banoge), SRT all are included. And he delivered as captain picking the team from the depths of match fixing, so your arguments ring hollow.

His selection in the team --he scored 2 hundreds in back to back tests including debut. Get your facts straight please.

Controversy with GC -- every issue that was discussed in the review committee was decided in his favor (unfortunately they did not discuss the VVS issue). And who benefitted --last I checked GC is still the coach, an idol being worshipped by some on this DG while SG is out of the team, being ridiculed and castigated left right and center by most.

Non performance in 2 years --your uninformed views are a riot. Look up cricinfo and then make statements --please.

Backstabbing JD --using your logic, the same backstabbing that GC and RD indulged in ? Oh, I forgot, you hold them in high esteem.

At least be consistent in your logic, even if its your logic. For the record, I do not subscribe to that black and white view --see my comments above about loyalty.

Very difficult to hold SG in the same esteem as RD & SRT -- for a thing to be difficult, forget very difficult, one needs to try.
no arguments if you equate a guy doing his job to a guy in fact doing favours at the expense of indian cricket. If you think JD interferring with selection to promote SG is same as RD playing in ODIs after agreeing to keep wickets, I have no more arguments. Except saying that SG fans are welcome to live in their own "REAL WORLD", world in which SG is still top class, where is still captain and first to be selected in playing elevan.  :)
Logged

ramshorns

  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13,029
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #123 on: July 22, 2006, 09:30:50 PM »

Reacting to Kolkata Police Commissioner Prasun Mukherjee's comments that Sourav Ganguly was dropped from the Indian team for non-cricketing reasons, Kiran More said: "Lot of things are happening there. I don't want to comment. As selectors, we pick the best team. I agree with Ajit Wadekar's horses-for-courses policy in selection matters. Ganguly has served Indian cricket, and is still playing. Any player can perform and come back. Anil Kumble is 36 and playing international cricket with distinction."

http://www.hindu.com/2006/07/23/stories/2006072306401700.htm
Logged

kban1

  • Administrator
  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,966
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #124 on: July 22, 2006, 10:01:01 PM »

flute:

Quote
whatever inefficiencies you quote, please remember, KM was the selector even during SG/JW's regime. if you are willing to give credit to SG/JW, logic demands that you give credit to selectors too. lets not pick and choose here. As for inefficiencies goes, I can come up with a longer list for SG too.


so you want to find out inefficiencies of SG to counter arguments against KM --lol. You must be fast running out of arguments.

KM was a selector sure, he was not chairman of selectors but for the last year of Sg's captaincy --again, I suggest you do a little fact checking.

Quote
you are hilarious my friend. How about same political pressures on KM? how aBOUT jd'S interference in SG's selection? why are you discounting the same parameters when you so clearly called him a fool and castigated him? his political pressures doesn't count? poor old SG is the only one facing dilemmas ?

Now I know you are out of arguments when you start comparing pressures on KM with the dilemma SG faces --which is essentially he has to pick a side.

When did I call KM a fool ? The phrase I used in another thread is "suffer a fool". Please pick up a book of English idioms and find out what that phrase means before you run off accusing me of calling KM a fool.

Quote
dilemma for what? basically to find the best possible way to resurrect his flagging career. get involved in all the games outside the filed, but show zilch on the ground and expect to get selected. very nice

Yes, it is a dilemema as to how to resurrect his career --its still a dilemma, no different that one you or I may face in trying to save our job. And its a dilemma thrust upon him --he is being asked by influential politicians to choose a side in the midst of a high level battle between JD & Pawar with the CM and ex CM of WB thrown in the mix for good measure.

And you conveniently choose to ignore that he is in the wilderness because of politics played by others on him in the first place.

Read what I mentioned in my prior posts --runs should be the only criteria. Read SG's interview posted on this DG where he talks about runs being the only criteria.

Also recall that runs were not enough to put him in contention in the recent past because he is in the BCCI dog house. He is now being put in a position to declare his allegiance --there is no quid pro quo for selection here (even he knows runs will have to be the determining factor), the only quid pro here is that his allegiance puts gets him out of a dog house. Your flights of fancy to suit a conclusion clash with facts all the time.

Quote
remember kban1, while you ask of me the same, the issue was of making a "HUGE DEAL" out of it , compared to it being righ or wrong. I am sure you know the exact tenor & tone of argument on this, but somehow choose to ignore it for obvious reasons.

ignore what for obvious reasons ? My issue has always been the same and consistent. To me it is a big deal because it is unacceptable. To you it was not a big deal --be happy mate, live with your opinion.

Dont bring up the issue everytime and then pass on innuendos like I chose to ignore something for obvious reasons. Obvious to you maybe, not to me --I still do not have a clue of what you are insinuating

Quote
do you know lawyers are prohibited from  meeting the judge outside the court and that it is highly discounraged? don't you know the difference between approaching the judge while the court is in session or meting him in his chambers Vs meeting the judge at his home? don't you see the obvious conflict of interest in it? why is it so difficult to recognize an obvious unethical thing ?

No, you are wrong. Depending on the situation, lawyers can and do meet the judge --it may not be a common occurence but it happens. Yes, it is generally discouraged but does not mean it does not happen.

Who mentioned meeting the judge at home ? Read my post --I said before and during  atrial, not at home. Please do not twist my words in your attempt to prove a point.

I also find it extremely interesting that you of all people (the vocal defender against the appearance of unethical charge vis-a-vis KM & GC coaching tie up) is asking me how I fail to recognize an obvious unethical issue ? ROFL!!!!!

Again, when you make an argument -- it pays to read what has been said by the other guy. JD was one member out of a 5 member panel which decided on the issue --GET IT ? 1 out of 5. So unless you have proof (the lizard on the wall to use your own phrase), I suggest you stop bandying inneundos in the off chance that one of them repeated a million times will stick.

Quote
anyway,to jog your memory, it is not a well established fact as you make it out to be. I did show evidence at game played thru media and also one report which said Sg seeked meeting with pawar. there is no enough evidence either way, but you choose to state it an established, known fact, which is what I point out. In fact, you exhibit this tendency a lot of times, after a long discussion, go off and claim it as established fact. interesting.

This is BS -- cut it out dude. Go back to the thread and read through the arguments. You made an elaborate set of what if suggestions, each of which was possible but none of which had any evidentiary backing to it. And the one report you quoted was from rediff --please go and read my response to it -- the whole timeline on that report as well as aspects of that whole report were dissected in my response. I even quoted another section in that very same report to show how the initial indication came from Powar.

The only memory you need to jog is yours before you start with your unsubtantiated arguments about my tendencies.

Quote
why are you willing to use it as an excuse /defense now when for KM, you were so not willing to allow that factor in evaluating him? why do you prefer to call him "fair weather" guy when you are not willing to say the same about SG?

What has running a business with political hostility facing you got to do with KM ? If you are trying to equate this with KM's timing of dropping SG, you are stretching credulity in comparing horses and aeroplanes.

But anyways, since you obviouly are short of arguments, let me humor you. Again, you pick comments out of context. My comment about KM and dropping SG had a context --my point was to show KM did no such gutsy thing as you were proclaiming. If he had done it when JD was in power, it would have been gutsy. He did it when the political alignment was in his favor, hence not gutsy. Savvy ??

Quote
you talk of SG being political pawn as if it is "Sun rises in the east" type of fact. For all I we know, SG indeed indulge in politics all thru career, running off to JD for every lil thing, making & breaking careers on his whims,clinging to captaincy for too long, staying in the team blocking other better players, and suddenly he becomes a pawn in political game. Its really funny that a guy whose non-selection can cause incidents in parliament, strikes, rasta rokos etc., a guy with so much mass support is a political pawn. very interesting.

"For all I know" -- good point, the I is the operative word here.

I think it is obvious what your thought patterns and views are about SG --be happy and content with them.

Yes he made and broke careers at whim, blocked so many great players -- do you even pause for a second to consider the allegations you level ? Jeez man, dont look now but your hatred is showing.

I have to question your comprehension of reality here-- a rasta roko or bandh happens for a popular cricketer. How does that make it so that this cricketer cannot be used as a political pawn ?

Quote
no arguments if you equate a guy doing his job to a guy in fact doing favours at the expense of indian cricket. If you think JD interferring with selection to promote SG is same as RD playing in ODIs after agreeing to keep wickets, I have no more arguments. Except saying that SG fans are welcome to live in their own "REAL WORLD", world in which SG is still top class, where is still captain and first to be selected in playing elevan.

No, again you miss the point. I did not equate --I used your logic to point out how its uniform application (not selective to SG) can end up with situations where the same allegations could be leveleld against others. I was trying to show (using your argument) how naive your argument was.

yes everyone who says anything neutral or good about SG instead of spewing venom and hatred live in a dream world where SG is the captain, and will always be in the team. Good arguments, good logic!!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 10:11:55 PM by kban1 »
Logged

prfsr

  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,755
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #125 on: July 22, 2006, 10:16:04 PM »

As the arguments rage on in this DG, the drama in India/UK keeps taking new turns :)

-P

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1060723/asp/frontpage/story_6514451.asp

My target leaked Greg mail: Sourav
LOKENDRA PRATAP SAHI
 
Sourav Ganguly 
Calcutta, July 22: It’s ironical that a short-pitched delivery landed Sourav Ganguly in hospital (for stitches), some hours after he’d himself unleashed a bouncer at the heart of Jagmohan Dalmiya’s re-election campaign.

That was last evening.

On the morning after, the former India captain had pain in the jaw and was preparing for another trip to hospital (“a change in dressing is needed”) when The Telegraph called at his Northants’-provided apartment in Northampton.

“I was trying to pull Pakistan’s (Shahid) Nazir when I got hit… I’m on medication, but it’s hurting,” he said, adding that he be given a “couple of hours” before anything was asked.

Sourav, however, almost went mum on the second call: “There’s nothing to say…”

Asked whether, at least, he had a comment on obliquely tearing into one-time mentor Dalmiya, Sourav replied: “I’m not going to talk about individuals…. My email is directed at whoever leaked (Greg) Chappell’s one last year…”

Sourav’s email, addressed to relative Sanjoy Chatterjee — not business associate Sanjoy Das as assumed, nor elder brother Snehashish, as claimed — called for punishing those in the Cricket Association of Bengal (CAB) who were “playing” with careers.

The email, which also lauded chief minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee’s initiative in “addressing” issues, was formally released by police commissioner Prasun Mukherjee, who is challenging Dalmiya for the top post.

Mukherjee is the chief minister’s candidate.

Chappell’s email, to the board last September, had savaged Sourav and landed him in the unfortunate state he’s in.

While Sourav didn’t elaborate, confidants have been insisting he isn’t holding Dalmiya responsible for the Chappell-leak.

“Whatever the timing and interpretation of his email, Sourav’s target is somebody very close to Dalmiya in the CAB…. That he stays protected is what continues to irk him,” is how one put it.

Perhaps, but nobody will buy that as the heat (in the lead-up to the July 30 elections) is exclusively on Dalmiya.

According to another confidant, Sourav was under “pressure” from June 19, when Bhattacharjee declared he wanted Dalmiya out and that Sourav had been asked to “take responsibility”.

The Dalmiya camp, though, dismissed it with contempt: “Isn’t the pressure so much more on Dalmiya, who runs a business in Bengal?”

The souring of relations began last October when Sourav was “hurt” that Dalmiya didn’t use his “influence” to defer the captain’s appointment and the selection of the squad for the first couple of ODIs, against Sri Lanka, by four-five days.

Coming just weeks after the flare-up with Chappell, that was a crucial stage in his career.

Owing to tennis elbow symptoms, Sourav wasn’t available for selection on the day (October 13) the selectors met in Mohali.

The rest is history.

Dalmiya’s view couldn’t be ascertained, but his control within the board had begun to diminish and it didn’t help that Sourav wasn’t prepared to risk aggravating his injury in the Challenger which coincided with that selection meeting.

Still, one learns Sourav hasn’t exactly forgotten the occasions when Dalmiya got him the best deal. Equally, he’s convinced he proved himself a “worthy” horse.

That he gave Dalmiya and India over 15,000 runs in Tests and ODIs.
 


Logged

JJ

  • 12th Man
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 141
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #126 on: July 22, 2006, 10:16:56 PM »



Check thos out - in MumbaiMirror.com

Now that we’re done with appreciating the beauty of an ugly game called football, it’s time shift to our focus back to the ugliness of a beautiful game called cricket. Ugliness because, in this cliched land of snake charmers, rope tricks, decorated elephants, celebrated strokeplayers and mesmerising spinners, that’s what cricket has now been reduced to. Why? I’ll give you reasons.

It’s just plain ugly when Team India  beat the weakest of West Indies sides on the deadest of wickets and then screams, repeatedly, that they’ve done something remarkable. It can’t be beautiful when a board bothers more about what it’s earning than spending, and then spares no effort to tom-tom just that. It is revolting when a selection committee, after months in office, tries to pass off people as all-rounders on every opportunity it gets. And it’s kind of grotesque when a former  great captain and a former lofty administrator go to war just because they don’t have any use for each other any more.

Of all the instances above, I find the last one most upsetting. Simply because I never expected anything better from the new regime of the BCCI or the selectors or, for that matter, from the current team management.

But Sourav Ganguly was, should’ve been, bigger than this. After all he’s a man seeking vindication for the wrongs — and there were many — done against him.

He says he’s on a mission to purge his reputation, fighting to prove that he’s still got what it takes to play at the highest level, striving to show the world that no matter what politics was played against him, it still hasn’t killed his spirit.  Shouldn’t he find his absolution on the field rather than in the political corridors of the Cricket Association of Bengal (CAB)? The latest e-mail episode has, more than anything else,  tainted Ganguly’s heroic struggle.

Sport is not only about champions, it’s also about fallen heroes. What Zinedine Zidane did was wrong but that’s why he is still great — even greater perhaps than he was before because we know he has a human side that is not willing to take more trash that it should. You cross the line and I’ll retaliate — it’s such a raw emotion, and it’s great that all the modern-day pressures have not been able to stamp out that basic instinct from him.

Ganguly, on the other hand, by using politics similar to the kind that ensured his exit from the Indian team, seems to have fallen dreadfully short of expectations.

He shouldn’t be a conspirator in pulling down Jagmohan Dalmiya, a man who is anyway facing the music from all quarters — and especially from a group that has some people who are no better than him. The former India captain is just getting his hands dirty in the muck.

Ganguly used to say, not too long ago, that he was certain Dalmiya would never harm him. He has grown up with Dalmiya’s children, the families have known each other for years, and the former ICC boss was a kind of father figure to him.

Dalmiya, on the other hand, made fervent appeals — even when his BCCI seat was going — that his political rivals shouldn’t hurt Sourav in a bid to get back at him.

I’m not trying to suggest that they both owed their survival to each other — Sourav scored the runs off his own bat and Dalmiya got the votes from his own clout.

But how Sourav suddenly realised it was Dalmiya who was all along plotting his downfall is a mystery. We don’t know if that’s true, it’s not impossible of course, and we’d like to know more.

For me, and several others, Ganguly is someone who taught the Indian team to stand up and fight. Despite all his many well-documented, much-publicised flaws, he instilled a spirit in the side that made them get over so many ills — chief among them was parochialism in selection.

If you convinced Ganguly you had the stuff, he would fight for you, lead you, and inspire you to surprise yourself. Whether Harbhajan Singh, Yuvraj Singh, and Virender Sehwag say it now or not, they all once vouched for it.

To see that same man allow his e-mail being read out in a press conference is an indication that the spirit, finally, may be wavering.


• Ganguly, by using politics similar to the kind that ensured his exit from the Indian team, seems to have fallen dreadfully short of expectations. He shouldn’t be a conspirator in pulling down Jagmohan Dalmiya, a man who is anyway facing the music from a group that has some people who are no better than him. Sourav is just getting his hands dirty in the muck

Logged

LosingNow

  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24,294
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #127 on: July 22, 2006, 11:08:12 PM »

As they say .."Adversity reveals character"
Logged
Play with heart. Win with class. Lose with dignity

flute202020

  • Guest
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #128 on: July 22, 2006, 11:19:30 PM »

flute:

Quote
whatever inefficiencies you quote, please remember, KM was the selector even during SG/JW's regime. if you are willing to give credit to SG/JW, logic demands that you give credit to selectors too. lets not pick and choose here. As for inefficiencies goes, I can come up with a longer list for SG too.


so you want to find out inefficiencies of SG to counter arguments against KM --lol. You must be fast running out of arguments.

KM was a selector sure, he was not chairman of selectors but for the last year of Sg's captaincy --again, I suggest you do a little fact checking.

Quote
you are hilarious my friend. How about same political pressures on KM? how aBOUT jd'S interference in SG's selection? why are you discounting the same parameters when you so clearly called him a fool and castigated him? his political pressures doesn't count? poor old SG is the only one facing dilemmas ?

Now I know you are out of arguments when you start comparing pressures on KM with the dilemma SG faces --which is essentially he has to pick a side.

When did I call KM a fool ? The phrase I used in another thread is "suffer a fool". Please pick up a book of English idioms and find out what that phrase means before you run off accusing me of calling KM a fool.

Quote
dilemma for what? basically to find the best possible way to resurrect his flagging career. get involved in all the games outside the filed, but show zilch on the ground and expect to get selected. very nice

Yes, it is a dilemema as to how to resurrect his career --its still a dilemma, no different that one you or I may face in trying to save our job. And its a dilemma thrust upon him --he is being asked by influential politicians to choose a side in the midst of a high level battle between JD & Pawar with the CM and ex CM of WB thrown in the mix for good measure.

And you conveniently choose to ignore that he is in the wilderness because of politics played by others on him in the first place.

Read what I mentioned in my prior posts --runs should be the only criteria. Read SG's interview posted on this DG where he talks about runs being the only criteria.

Also recall that runs were not enough to put him in contention in the recent past because he is in the BCCI dog house. He is now being put in a position to declare his allegiance --there is no quid pro quo for selection here (even he knows runs will have to be the determining factor), the only quid pro here is that his allegiance puts gets him out of a dog house. Your flights of fancy to suit a conclusion clash with facts all the time.

Quote
remember kban1, while you ask of me the same, the issue was of making a "HUGE DEAL" out of it , compared to it being righ or wrong. I am sure you know the exact tenor & tone of argument on this, but somehow choose to ignore it for obvious reasons.

ignore what for obvious reasons ? My issue has always been the same and consistent. To me it is a big deal because it is unacceptable. To you it was not a big deal --be happy mate, live with your opinion.

Dont bring up the issue everytime and then pass on innuendos like I chose to ignore something for obvious reasons. Obvious to you maybe, not to me --I still do not have a clue of what you are insinuating

Quote
do you know lawyers are prohibited from  meeting the judge outside the court and that it is highly discounraged? don't you know the difference between approaching the judge while the court is in session or meting him in his chambers Vs meeting the judge at his home? don't you see the obvious conflict of interest in it? why is it so difficult to recognize an obvious unethical thing ?

No, you are wrong. Depending on the situation, lawyers can and do meet the judge --it may not be a common occurence but it happens. Yes, it is generally discouraged but does not mean it does not happen.

Who mentioned meeting the judge at home ? Read my post --I said before and during  atrial, not at home. Please do not twist my words in your attempt to prove a point.

I also find it extremely interesting that you of all people (the vocal defender against the appearance of unethical charge vis-a-vis KM & GC coaching tie up) is asking me how I fail to recognize an obvious unethical issue ? ROFL!!!!!

Again, when you make an argument -- it pays to read what has been said by the other guy. JD was one member out of a 5 member panel which decided on the issue --GET IT ? 1 out of 5. So unless you have proof (the lizard on the wall to use your own phrase), I suggest you stop bandying inneundos in the off chance that one of them repeated a million times will stick.

Quote
anyway,to jog your memory, it is not a well established fact as you make it out to be. I did show evidence at game played thru media and also one report which said Sg seeked meeting with pawar. there is no enough evidence either way, but you choose to state it an established, known fact, which is what I point out. In fact, you exhibit this tendency a lot of times, after a long discussion, go off and claim it as established fact. interesting.

This is BS -- cut it out dude. Go back to the thread and read through the arguments. You made an elaborate set of what if suggestions, each of which was possible but none of which had any evidentiary backing to it. And the one report you quoted was from rediff --please go and read my response to it -- the whole timeline on that report as well as aspects of that whole report were dissected in my response. I even quoted another section in that very same report to show how the initial indication came from Powar.

The only memory you need to jog is yours before you start with your unsubtantiated arguments about my tendencies.

Quote
why are you willing to use it as an excuse /defense now when for KM, you were so not willing to allow that factor in evaluating him? why do you prefer to call him "fair weather" guy when you are not willing to say the same about SG?

What has running a business with political hostility facing you got to do with KM ? If you are trying to equate this with KM's timing of dropping SG, you are stretching credulity in comparing horses and aeroplanes.

But anyways, since you obviouly are short of arguments, let me humor you. Again, you pick comments out of context. My comment about KM and dropping SG had a context --my point was to show KM did no such gutsy thing as you were proclaiming. If he had done it when JD was in power, it would have been gutsy. He did it when the political alignment was in his favor, hence not gutsy. Savvy ??

Quote
you talk of SG being political pawn as if it is "Sun rises in the east" type of fact. For all I we know, SG indeed indulge in politics all thru career, running off to JD for every lil thing, making & breaking careers on his whims,clinging to captaincy for too long, staying in the team blocking other better players, and suddenly he becomes a pawn in political game. Its really funny that a guy whose non-selection can cause incidents in parliament, strikes, rasta rokos etc., a guy with so much mass support is a political pawn. very interesting.

"For all I know" -- good point, the I is the operative word here.

I think it is obvious what your thought patterns and views are about SG --be happy and content with them.

Yes he made and broke careers at whim, blocked so many great players -- do you even pause for a second to consider the allegations you level ? Jeez man, dont look now but your hatred is showing.

I have to question your comprehension of reality here-- a rasta roko or bandh happens for a popular cricketer. How does that make it so that this cricketer cannot be used as a political pawn ?

Quote
no arguments if you equate a guy doing his job to a guy in fact doing favours at the expense of indian cricket. If you think JD interferring with selection to promote SG is same as RD playing in ODIs after agreeing to keep wickets, I have no more arguments. Except saying that SG fans are welcome to live in their own "REAL WORLD", world in which SG is still top class, where is still captain and first to be selected in playing elevan.

No, again you miss the point. I did not equate --I used your logic to point out how its uniform application (not selective to SG) can end up with situations where the same allegations could be leveleld against others. I was trying to show (using your argument) how naive your argument was.

yes everyone who says anything neutral or good about SG instead of spewing venom and hatred live in a dream world where SG is the captain, and will always be in the team. Good arguments, good logic!!
I will respond..just wanted to make sure the post is not edited considering all the direct references involved.  :)
Logged

bouncer

  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,033
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #129 on: July 22, 2006, 11:36:34 PM »



Check thos out - in MumbaiMirror.com

Now that we’re done with appreciating the beauty of an ugly game called football, it’s time shift to our focus


Calling the beautiful game ugly? who are these punks in Mumbai Mirror????
Logged

ruchir

  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,983
  • WC03 Final - Ganguly is in pain after a fall
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #130 on: July 22, 2006, 11:51:44 PM »

Auntyji, What is clear about this issue? I haven't heard SG saying anything publicly on this.

Are meri JAAT behena, tu theek say soch nahin paa rahi hai. The fact that SG wrote a mail in the first place itself is a public statement from him. Read the many articles KBAN has posted on this thread. Waa sab tere deeday khol denge, meri behena. Fir tu bhi aisay :o deeday paategi.



You have been siding with SG?!! Surprising!..You are a known SG baiter and have left no oppurtunity to sully the ex-captain. Now you imply that the Bengal CM is using him?! How much do you actually know about what discussions happenned with SG and Bengal CM? Auntyji, How much do you know anyway about their future plans?....Nothing!
You and CP have thrived on hate mongering at the expense of SG and his fans. Suppose someone comments abt RD/GC/KM........then you start jumping up and down...and show your true nature.

How much YOU know about this incident?? I know a lot about it. If you don't, what can I do about it? You don't know anything about CM and SG's Future plans?? You ignorant sister.....  ;D Bengal CM has already spoken in press about 2 monhs ago that he wants SG to take active part in cricket administration. This news had also been dissected in this DG. Where were you then, meri behena?? Tum kahan thee? Aur kya kar rahi thee?? There have been innumerable threads created on this DG making fun of RD/GC/KM. Most of them have died without anyone, including me and CP, bothering to write in them. Show me one thread where someone made fun of SG and that thread died down!!! You wont find one single thread like that. And you say I indulge in hate mongering?

Hate mongering is done when someone is personally attacked. Other than funny threads that I have created (including itchy balls), show me one single thread where I have personally attacked SG. Hell, I have been attacked personally on this DG while I was having serious discussions. I have been attacked even in funny threads -- latest example being DEX attacking me by bringing my family in the discussion.

And you say I indulge in hate mongering?? Again, show me one single thread when I have attacked SG personally while having cricketing discussions. I will give you another example of hate mongering. Between you and me, who started HATE between us first?? Did you call me AUNTYJI first or did I call YOU BEHENA first? Funny threads are different. This thread is a serious thread and in every post of yours, you are making fun of me by calling me AUNTYJI. Who started this?? Me or YOU?? And then you have the audacity of calling me a hate monger!!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D What a joke. Meri behena, zaraa apnaa ghoonghat uthaa aur roshni dekh. Tu to andhere mein hi jee rahi hai......



Yes, you are right. True fans also do not insult other players who have done their service for India. You have much to learn here, I believe. Change your attitude.

What learn?? I don't like SG. I like some other player and am his fan. So? What's there to learn? Are you saying, meri behena, that unless you are a SG fan, you are not a fan at all!!! What crap....



Auntyji, spit...think spit! ;D

Oh....  ;D ;D ;D Now I know what I gave a mouthfull of, to you...... Meri behenaaaaaaa.... let me know when you give this latest video clip to bigmouthful.com......
Logged

Libran

  • Marketing Moderator
  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7,614
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #131 on: July 23, 2006, 03:15:28 AM »

rams:

Agree. I made that point before. He needs runs more than anything.


This is a nuisance he is getting dragged into but he does not have  a choice here

I am not sure Kban1.  I personally feel the people around him are not advising him right.  Probably SG is dragged into this but there are better ways to handle this than writing an e-mail.  After burning his hand with the e-mail issue once one would think that SG would have taken secrets ways to take care of things this time around.

This email was publicly declared by Mr. Mukherjee at a press conference. So there's no question of burning his fingers with this. He did it openly. It was not supposed to be secret as his brother himself was involved in it. And let's not confuse it with the other email. SG didn't burn his hand with the 'other' email on his own accord. Many of us in the past believed what SG is himself telling us now regarding that email and who leaked it. Regarding your opinion about there's a better way to handle this than writing an email, let's SG decide that. Other than focussing on his cricket part which we all agree, how to handle this issue without the email will be a serious debate amongst us I am sure. So let's not say that sending the email was wrong on SG's part. Other means would have been viewed as wrong by other people too.
Just curious as to why you want things to be released through third parties.  One would think if want to take a stand and say something you would do that directly.  This is where things get complicated when you involve others.  It is again my opinion.  I also feel in the long run it is going to hurt him.

What's the problem if he sends the email and supports Mr. Mukherjee and also mentions the misgivings of JD in it? The fact that he's supporting Mr. Mukherjee is good enough. The stand is regarding his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'using third party', then be it. I don't see any issue here. He's clearly lending his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'involving others', then it can't be helped. Mr. Mukherjee is fighting the election against JD and SG is supporting him. It's that simple really. Why would SG directly take it up with JD? And even if he does that, do you think certain people would stop calling him names like crybabies etc.? As a lot of people said, it's a lose-lose situation for anyways. The SG-bashers will not spare him anyway. So better do what he thinks is the right thing to do. About whether it'll hurt him in the long run, hasn't he suffered enough already? How worse can it get?
Jai:Something called legacy is what I had in mind (beyond cricket), when I said it hurts SG in the long run.  Ofcourse we have differing views on the issue.  No harm in it.

Fine. But let me ask you this. If you were in SG's position trying to make a comeback, will be more concerned 'right now' about the issues/wrongdoings you have facred/still facing or about what is your legacy going to be when you retire? Let's leave the 'focus on cricket' bit here because everyone unanimously agree on that point.

Good question - the point is though - SG is not gaining anything by having this public spat ... fact is - he used JD and JD used him - thats how
politics works. SG should get real about that and maintain whatever little dignity he is left with.

This public spat? Today was the first time anything came out from SG that is against JD and you have already reached the conclusion that he's not gaining anything. How? He has kept quiet so far. May be he has realised now that by keeping quiet, he's not going to gain anything.

** Yeah, sure - he'll gain Pawar's support and get back to Team India - what a great way to get back to the team !!

And if he doesn't get back to Team India, then what will be your reaction? Find another excuse to demean SG.

 And who are you to decide how much dignity SG is left with? Instead of asking SG to get real, I think it'll be prudent for you not to make absurd statements.
** I am an unbiased Indian cricket fan - unlike you :) I think it woul;d be prudent for you to use your brains instead of your heart.


ROFL. Do you know the meaning of the word 'unbiased'? I can use both brains and heart, you should learn to use at least one.

Let's stick to civil discussions with points that can be discussed and debated.
** Heh Heh - funny that *you* should talk about being civil - my posts are always civil ...

Don't think so...for someone who talks about how much dignity is left in a person without any basis, that's not sign of a civil post.

Neither you nor anyone can actually decide how much dignity SG or anyone else is left with. Alright?
** Nope - I sure can decide how much dignity SG is left with since I am observing all the tamasha just as you are ...
I am as entitled to my opinion as you are and you had better learn to live with that ... buddy.


Aah...the opinion thing. I know I know...opinion is like an A**hole, everyone has one. You can call yourself 'unbiased' and claim you know how much dignity is left in SG, but what's the use? I can make other tall claims without having to prove it. Also, just because you are entitled to your opinion, don't assume that people are not going to react if you post them here. It's a public discussion forum after all. So learn to live with public reactions.


Jai - after reading your responses - I can only laugh - you're either SG himself or his relative ...
else why would you get so personal and offensive ??

So that said .. I will say that your rebuttal points are so emotional and devoid of logic that I'd be wasting my time responding in kind ..
Whatever , man ....


I had told you earlier to be civil in your responses, but you claimed your posts are always civil. If by supporting SG, I become SG himself or his relative, then what about you? Just because you included the phrase "I am an unbiased fan", do you really think people are going to believe it? This has always made me laugh. All anti-SG folks while referring to themselves use this term 'unbiased fan' and accuse anyone for even remotely supporting SG for being his mouthpiece, his relative etc. etc. Why so? Don't you guys have a better logic to defend yourselves? And yeah, my points are devoid of logic, and you are quoting from Bible when you say that SG has little dignity left. Learn to argue with points and logic first, both of which you lack now. Your posts right now are full of hatred. Using the disclaimer 'I am an unbiased fan' is not going to help. There's hardly anyone on this DG. Grow up without wasting any more time.



LOL !!

Amazing response....have you really enjoyed this post OR have you given up...the latter seems more appropriate .. ;)

Its the former - buddy boy ... these responses are only worth laughing at .. lighten up.


That is a very subtle way of saying the other guy is right and I have no answer..it is more of a nervous giggle than a LOL...or a LOL that does not carry conviction....and both of us know the truth, don't we...buddy boy.... ::)
Logged

Libran

  • Marketing Moderator
  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7,614
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #132 on: July 23, 2006, 04:03:46 AM »

Not sure if it has been covered already.The threads are too long for running thru'

But here are my thoughts on this issue

1. If going against JD was a viable alternative provided to SG by the powers that be in the Board, and given that SG wants to represent the country at all cost and seek an honorable exit as compared to what has been dished out now, does he have a choice ???

2. If he has clearly understood that JD  did play a political game, is it fair to hold on to his feelings

3. It is known that his dropping from the team was largely non-cricketing and if the same non-cricketing reasons are cited as a via media for his return,does it leave him with much choice ??

If he had not accepted the anti-JD route, we would have said that "anyways, he is not performing well...he cannot get back...and he has been good to his mentor, so what is the issue...forgotten, dead and buried...but SG lives with the ignominy of having been shunted in and out of the team during his final years in Int'l cricket

Now that he has done so, we have decided to call him a politician who is seeking a back door entry

And the same people who did not want to hear his name somehow sem to remember that he has a chance to get back, that he is talking about cricket in his own state , which is good , as compared to a current cricketer  who missed him in the dressing room.

Compare this with AK talks of coming back, time and again....talks about SRT...how motivating it is , et al....but these are fine

So much of contrarian views and we all end up being the ultimate "suckers"

We have Past cricketers talking about current, current about past, past about past, current about current, selectors about players, players about Board, Board about other Board members(past or present)....

Every body is taking about everybody and in all this Indian cricket is hitting a nadir...Grumpy laughs all the way to the Bank and ensures that Australia's only possible strong opponent, is left licking its wounds before, during and after the World Cup
Logged

fineleg

  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11,358
  • she is the IPL Winnah!
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #133 on: July 23, 2006, 04:25:30 AM »

Ravi,
All said and done -  if it is Pawar that is orchestrating and if SG gets into team just coz he supported Pawar against JD, then more blame shud be on Pawar than on anyone else.
Logged

Jai

  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,057
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #134 on: July 23, 2006, 04:37:57 AM »

As the arguments rage on in this DG, the drama in India/UK keeps taking new turns :)

-P

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1060723/asp/frontpage/story_6514451.asp

My target leaked Greg mail: Sourav
LOKENDRA PRATAP SAHI
 
Sourav Ganguly 
Calcutta, July 22: It’s ironical that a short-pitched delivery landed Sourav Ganguly in hospital (for stitches), some hours after he’d himself unleashed a bouncer at the heart of Jagmohan Dalmiya’s re-election campaign.

That was last evening.

On the morning after, the former India captain had pain in the jaw and was preparing for another trip to hospital (“a change in dressing is needed”) when The Telegraph called at his Northants’-provided apartment in Northampton.

“I was trying to pull Pakistan’s (Shahid) Nazir when I got hit… I’m on medication, but it’s hurting,” he said, adding that he be given a “couple of hours” before anything was asked.

Sourav, however, almost went mum on the second call: “There’s nothing to say…”

Asked whether, at least, he had a comment on obliquely tearing into one-time mentor Dalmiya, Sourav replied: “I’m not going to talk about individuals…. My email is directed at whoever leaked (Greg) Chappell’s one last year…”

Sourav’s email, addressed to relative Sanjoy Chatterjee — not business associate Sanjoy Das as assumed, nor elder brother Snehashish, as claimed — called for punishing those in the Cricket Association of Bengal (CAB) who were “playing” with careers.

The email, which also lauded chief minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee’s initiative in “addressing” issues, was formally released by police commissioner Prasun Mukherjee, who is challenging Dalmiya for the top post.

Mukherjee is the chief minister’s candidate.

Chappell’s email, to the board last September, had savaged Sourav and landed him in the unfortunate state he’s in.

While Sourav didn’t elaborate, confidants have been insisting he isn’t holding Dalmiya responsible for the Chappell-leak.

“Whatever the timing and interpretation of his email, Sourav’s target is somebody very close to Dalmiya in the CAB…. That he stays protected is what continues to irk him,” is how one put it.

Perhaps, but nobody will buy that as the heat (in the lead-up to the July 30 elections) is exclusively on Dalmiya.

According to another confidant, Sourav was under “pressure” from June 19, when Bhattacharjee declared he wanted Dalmiya out and that Sourav had been asked to “take responsibility”.

The Dalmiya camp, though, dismissed it with contempt: “Isn’t the pressure so much more on Dalmiya, who runs a business in Bengal?”

The souring of relations began last October when Sourav was “hurt” that Dalmiya didn’t use his “influence” to defer the captain’s appointment and the selection of the squad for the first couple of ODIs, against Sri Lanka, by four-five days.

Coming just weeks after the flare-up with Chappell, that was a crucial stage in his career.

Owing to tennis elbow symptoms, Sourav wasn’t available for selection on the day (October 13) the selectors met in Mohali.

The rest is history.

Dalmiya’s view couldn’t be ascertained, but his control within the board had begun to diminish and it didn’t help that Sourav wasn’t prepared to risk aggravating his injury in the Challenger which coincided with that selection meeting.

Still, one learns Sourav hasn’t exactly forgotten the occasions when Dalmiya got him the best deal. Equally, he’s convinced he proved himself a “worthy” horse.

That he gave Dalmiya and India over 15,000 runs in Tests and ODIs.
 




I think the person close to Dalmiya who has irked SG is  Goutam Dasgupta.
Logged

ranjit

  • First Class Player
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 275
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #135 on: July 23, 2006, 05:07:21 AM »

Ruchir and Jaat, can we get this conversation out of the gutter? It doesn't matter who started it.


Auntyji, What is clear about this issue? I haven't heard SG saying anything publicly on this.

Are meri JAAT behena, tu theek say soch nahin paa rahi hai. The fact that SG wrote a mail in the first place itself is a public statement from him. Read the many articles KBAN has posted on this thread. Waa sab tere deeday khol denge, meri behena. Fir tu bhi aisay :o deeday paategi.



You have been siding with SG?!! Surprising!..You are a known SG baiter and have left no oppurtunity to sully the ex-captain. Now you imply that the Bengal CM is using him?! How much do you actually know about what discussions happenned with SG and Bengal CM? Auntyji, How much do you know anyway about their future plans?....Nothing!
You and CP have thrived on hate mongering at the expense of SG and his fans. Suppose someone comments abt RD/GC/KM........then you start jumping up and down...and show your true nature.

How much YOU know about this incident?? I know a lot about it. If you don't, what can I do about it? You don't know anything about CM and SG's Future plans?? You ignorant sister.....  ;D Bengal CM has already spoken in press about 2 monhs ago that he wants SG to take active part in cricket administration. This news had also been dissected in this DG. Where were you then, meri behena?? Tum kahan thee? Aur kya kar rahi thee?? There have been innumerable threads created on this DG making fun of RD/GC/KM. Most of them have died without anyone, including me and CP, bothering to write in them. Show me one thread where someone made fun of SG and that thread died down!!! You wont find one single thread like that. And you say I indulge in hate mongering?

Hate mongering is done when someone is personally attacked. Other than funny threads that I have created (including itchy balls), show me one single thread where I have personally attacked SG. Hell, I have been attacked personally on this DG while I was having serious discussions. I have been attacked even in funny threads -- latest example being DEX attacking me by bringing my family in the discussion.

And you say I indulge in hate mongering?? Again, show me one single thread when I have attacked SG personally while having cricketing discussions. I will give you another example of hate mongering. Between you and me, who started HATE between us first?? Did you call me AUNTYJI first or did I call YOU BEHENA first? Funny threads are different. This thread is a serious thread and in every post of yours, you are making fun of me by calling me AUNTYJI. Who started this?? Me or YOU?? And then you have the audacity of calling me a hate monger!!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D What a joke. Meri behena, zaraa apnaa ghoonghat uthaa aur roshni dekh. Tu to andhere mein hi jee rahi hai......



Yes, you are right. True fans also do not insult other players who have done their service for India. You have much to learn here, I believe. Change your attitude.

What learn?? I don't like SG. I like some other player and am his fan. So? What's there to learn? Are you saying, meri behena, that unless you are a SG fan, you are not a fan at all!!! What crap....



Auntyji, spit...think spit! ;D

Oh....  ;D ;D ;D Now I know what I gave a mouthfull of, to you...... Meri behenaaaaaaa.... let me know when you give this latest video clip to bigmouthful.com......
Logged

dextrous

  • Administrator
  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16,763
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #136 on: July 23, 2006, 05:12:06 AM »

Bottomline is this--who would you rather have come into bat when India is chasing 250 in the WC semi-finals...Rao? Raina? Uthappa? Gambhir? Or Ganguly?

For me, the answer is obvious. Sooner or later Ganguly (and Kumble) have to be brought back.
Logged

suraj

  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,032
  • How about a tattoo with my name??
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #137 on: July 23, 2006, 05:29:54 AM »

Ruchir and Jaat, can we get this conversation out of the gutter? It doesn't matter who started it.


Auntyji, What is clear about this issue? I haven't heard SG saying anything publicly on this.

Are meri JAAT behena, tu theek say soch nahin paa rahi hai. The fact that SG wrote a mail in the first place itself is a public statement from him. Read the many articles KBAN has posted on this thread. Waa sab tere deeday khol denge, meri behena. Fir tu bhi aisay :o deeday paategi.



You have been siding with SG?!! Surprising!..You are a known SG baiter and have left no oppurtunity to sully the ex-captain. Now you imply that the Bengal CM is using him?! How much do you actually know about what discussions happenned with SG and Bengal CM? Auntyji, How much do you know anyway about their future plans?....Nothing!
You and CP have thrived on hate mongering at the expense of SG and his fans. Suppose someone comments abt RD/GC/KM........then you start jumping up and down...and show your true nature.

How much YOU know about this incident?? I know a lot about it. If you don't, what can I do about it? You don't know anything about CM and SG's Future plans?? You ignorant sister.....  ;D Bengal CM has already spoken in press about 2 monhs ago that he wants SG to take active part in cricket administration. This news had also been dissected in this DG. Where were you then, meri behena?? Tum kahan thee? Aur kya kar rahi thee?? There have been innumerable threads created on this DG making fun of RD/GC/KM. Most of them have died without anyone, including me and CP, bothering to write in them. Show me one thread where someone made fun of SG and that thread died down!!! You wont find one single thread like that. And you say I indulge in hate mongering?

Hate mongering is done when someone is personally attacked. Other than funny threads that I have created (including itchy balls), show me one single thread where I have personally attacked SG. Hell, I have been attacked personally on this DG while I was having serious discussions. I have been attacked even in funny threads -- latest example being DEX attacking me by bringing my family in the discussion.

And you say I indulge in hate mongering?? Again, show me one single thread when I have attacked SG personally while having cricketing discussions. I will give you another example of hate mongering. Between you and me, who started HATE between us first?? Did you call me AUNTYJI first or did I call YOU BEHENA first? Funny threads are different. This thread is a serious thread and in every post of yours, you are making fun of me by calling me AUNTYJI. Who started this?? Me or YOU?? And then you have the audacity of calling me a hate monger!!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D What a joke. Meri behena, zaraa apnaa ghoonghat uthaa aur roshni dekh. Tu to andhere mein hi jee rahi hai......



Yes, you are right. True fans also do not insult other players who have done their service for India. You have much to learn here, I believe. Change your attitude.

What learn?? I don't like SG. I like some other player and am his fan. So? What's there to learn? Are you saying, meri behena, that unless you are a SG fan, you are not a fan at all!!! What crap....



Auntyji, spit...think spit! ;D

Oh....  ;D ;D ;D Now I know what I gave a mouthfull of, to you...... Meri behenaaaaaaa.... let me know when you give this latest video clip to bigmouthful.com......

I second Ranjit's motion
Logged

kban1

  • Administrator
  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,966
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #138 on: July 23, 2006, 05:48:12 AM »

Quote
As they say .."Adversity reveals character"

Like it has repeatedly for a certain Mr. GC Chappell, MBE
Logged

keep-it-cool

  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18,238
  • Thanda Thanda Kool Kool
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #139 on: July 23, 2006, 06:58:19 AM »

As they say .."Adversity reveals character"

Exactly. I have heard of fair weather friends ... but this is the best example to date.
Logged
Sachin Tendulkar gave the muhurat clap for 'Awwal Number' - that apart, he hasn't done much wrong in the last 20 yrs!

keep-it-cool

  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18,238
  • Thanda Thanda Kool Kool
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #140 on: July 23, 2006, 07:00:41 AM »

Bottomline is this--who would you rather have come into bat when India is chasing 250 in the WC semi-finals...Rao? Raina? Uthappa? Gambhir? Or Ganguly?

For me, the answer is obvious. Sooner or later Ganguly (and Kumble) have to be brought back.

ha ha .. so now, the only way to make sg look good is compare him with those who are no longer in the squad?

the one person in your list who is still in the squad - raina - on current form, i would have him over sg
Logged
Sachin Tendulkar gave the muhurat clap for 'Awwal Number' - that apart, he hasn't done much wrong in the last 20 yrs!

flute202020

  • Guest
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #141 on: July 23, 2006, 02:51:00 PM »

flute:

Quote
whatever inefficiencies you quote, please remember, KM was the selector even during SG/JW's regime. if you are willing to give credit to SG/JW, logic demands that you give credit to selectors too. lets not pick and choose here. As for inefficiencies goes, I can come up with a longer list for SG too.


so you want to find out inefficiencies of SG to counter arguments against KM --lol. You must be fast running out of arguments.

KM was a selector sure, he was not chairman of selectors but for the last year of Sg's captaincy --again, I suggest you do a little fact checking.

kban1, read my comments clearly before asking me to
do fact checking. where did I mention that More was chief selector? is it your considered opinion that somehow More's credentials as selector needs to be discounted since he was not chief selector during SG/JW? why are you so eager to give all the credit to SG for whatever success we had during that time? what about cooperation from selectors,coach, JD? why did KM suddenly become a villain after SG is dropped?

Quote
you are hilarious my friend. How about same political pressures on KM? how aBOUT jd'S interference in SG's selection? why are you discounting the same parameters when you so clearly called him a fool and castigated him? his political pressures doesn't count? poor old SG is the only one facing dilemmas ?

Now I know you are out of arguments when you start comparing pressures on KM with the dilemma SG faces --which is essentially he has to pick a side.

When did I call KM a fool ? The phrase I used in another thread is "suffer a fool". Please pick up a book of English idioms and find out what that phrase means before you run off accusing me of calling KM a fool.
[/quote]

kban, before going around in a pedantic style talking about idioms, see the below quote from you

Quote
its not a  a put down of people connected with the SG non selection, flute.

Its relief that an useless guy will finally be gone. if we really had a meritocracy or selectors accountable for selection as in some other countries, he would have been shown the door a long time ago.

We do not, so we have had to suffer fools till they finish their tenure.

now, taken as a whole,to me, above can only imply that KM is a fool.



Quote
dilemma for what? basically to find the best possible way to resurrect his flagging career. get involved in all the games outside the filed, but show zilch on the ground and expect to get selected. very nice

Yes, it is a dilemema as to how to resurrect his career --its still a dilemma, no different that one you or I may face in trying to save our job. And its a dilemma thrust upon him --he is being asked by influential politicians to choose a side in the midst of a high level battle between JD & Pawar with the CM and ex CM of WB thrown in the mix for good measure.

And you conveniently choose to ignore that he is in the wilderness because of politics played by others on him in the first place.

Read what I mentioned in my prior posts --runs should be the only criteria. Read SG's interview posted on this DG where he talks about runs being the only criteria.

Also recall that runs were not enough to put him in contention in the recent past because he is in the BCCI dog house. He is now being put in a position to declare his allegiance --there is no quid pro quo for selection here (even he knows runs will have to be the determining factor), the only quid pro here is that his allegiance puts gets him out of a dog house. Your flights of fancy to suit a conclusion clash with facts all the time.its not a  a put down of people connected with the SG non selection, flute.[/quote]
you probably believe that SG is the fall guy and he's been kept out of team inspite of his great performance. I don't and there liest the difference.
for you, since he is kept out unfairly, you think this will bring him out of dog house.
To me, he's out of team for performance reasons, he got a long long rope earlier thru JD, tried his public trial tactic to get sympathy by talking about asked to step down, could not succeed and now he is trying to get back into the team by switching loyalties.

Atleast to me and to a lot of others on this DG, it did be a tragedy if SG makes it back to team by switching sides and notthing to show on the field. You think this type of involvement is OK since it will put him out of dog house. ?To me, this type of involvement will essentially put him in dog house.

irrespective of your opinion of flights and fancy, it is a fact that KM,GC & RD been put down on this DG with single minded devotion simply because their very existence is stoping SG from coming back. Of course, in your very own real world, things work differently and things are interpreted differently.

Quote
Quote
remember kban1, while you ask of me the same, the issue was of making a "HUGE DEAL" out of it , compared to it being righ or wrong. I am sure you know the exact tenor & tone of argument on this, but somehow choose to ignore it for obvious reasons.

ignore what for obvious reasons ? My issue has always been the same and consistent. To me it is a big deal because it is unacceptable. To you it was not a big deal --be happy mate, live with your opinion.

Dont bring up the issue everytime and then pass on innuendos like I chose to ignore something for obvious reasons. Obvious to you maybe, not to me --I still do not have a clue of what you are insinuating
[/quote]
I think to your trained legal mind, finding loop holes becomes a habit and hence the problem. read my comments in context. they were in response to your comments about "understanding" of indian and western cultures and how what is acceptable and what is not. My response was, the issue is not about acceptability of showing middle finger, it is about making huge deal of it. you ignored this difference because you were too eager to score points about people's lack of understanding of culturally acceptable behaviour.

if for you it is a huge deal, be my guest, shout from roof tops about it, I don't care. just don't imply that I don't have understnading of indian or western cultures or acceptability of certain gestures.

for the nth time, to me, this finger wagging was something in poor taste and poor judgement. it also shows some lack of sophistication. but, it doesn't make the person a villian or someone unworthy of his job or reflect badly on his abilities. it has no bearing on his performance in so far as indian cricket is concerned. it is not a insult to bengal, as it is made out to be. He had provocation and he was heckled and abused, and he responded using poor judgment. thats all..nothing more, nothing less.


Quote
Quote
do you know lawyers are prohibited from  meeting the judge outside the court and that it is highly discounraged? don't you know the difference between approaching the judge while the court is in session or meting him in his chambers Vs meeting the judge at his home? don't you see the obvious conflict of interest in it? why is it so difficult to recognize an obvious unethical thing ?

No, you are wrong. Depending on the situation, lawyers can and do meet the judge --it may not be a common occurence but it happens. Yes, it is generally discouraged but does not mean it does not happen.

Who mentioned meeting the judge at home ? Read my post --I said before and during  atrial, not at home. Please do not twist my words in your attempt to prove a point.
for a person with such ability at producing verbose responses, it helps in reading things in context and trying to get their meaning. Where did I mention that you talked about "meeting at home"? is it mandatory that I use an analogy only the way you mentioned it?

the point I was trying to make is, meeting a judge during trial in his chambers is OK, but meeting a judge at his home or in his hotel room is not approprite, is it? also, in this case, we can consider them as jurors and not judges, because this was essentially a committee. meeting or interacting with accused or defender is much more stringent in case of jurors. In the same way, SG meeting JD one hour before meeting without rest of the committe reeks of "compromise" plan. Anyway, to me , it was not appropriate. if you think it was OK, since there were 5 others(oh yes 5 others  I TOTALLY get it, 5 other totally independent, free from pressure from BCCI president even though they are relating to cricket).


Quote
I also find it extremely interesting that you of all people (the vocal defender against the appearance of unethical charge vis-a-vis KM & GC coaching tie up) is asking me how I fail to recognize an obvious unethical issue ? ROFL!!!!!

Again, when you make an argument -- it pays to read what has been said by the other guy. JD was one member out of a 5 member panel which decided on the issue --GET IT ? 1 out of 5. So unless you have proof (the lizard on the wall to use your own phrase), I suggest you stop bandying inneundos in the off chance that one of them repeated a million times will stick.
not sure where you got that, me being vocal defender of KM. my response was only about being fair & reasonable to KN or anyone. Simply because we don't like KM, it is not appropriate to malign him especially when most of the BCCI officials & office bearers are doing the same. read my responses, get my stand on an issue, before calling me vocal defender of anything. I did mention that it is bordering on unethical and is not appropriate.

Quote
Quote
anyway,to jog your memory, it is not a well established fact as you make it out to be. I did show evidence at game played thru media and also one report which said Sg seeked meeting with pawar. there is no enough evidence either way, but you choose to state it an established, known fact, which is what I point out. In fact, you exhibit this tendency a lot of times, after a long discussion, go off and claim it as established fact. interesting.

This is BS -- cut it out dude. Go back to the thread and read through the arguments. You made an elaborate set of what if suggestions, each of which was possible but none of which had any evidentiary backing to it. And the one report you quoted was from rediff --please go and read my response to it -- the whole timeline on that report as well as aspects of that whole report were dissected in my response. I even quoted another section in that very same report to show how the initial indication came from Powar.

The only memory you need to jog is yours before you start with your unsubtantiated arguments about my tendencies.

I don't have time for this. You in fact agreed with me when I said, there is no enough evidence to say for certain what exactly happened about that meeting. do not turn around now and claim having proved it as a fact, as if you were a lizard on the wall when SG got a call from pawar asking him to meet him. indeed cut it out..plz

decided not to respond to the rest..no time..its sunday..will be back later..
Logged

JJ

  • 12th Man
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 141
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #142 on: July 23, 2006, 03:10:15 PM »

rams:

Agree. I made that point before. He needs runs more than anything.


This is a nuisance he is getting dragged into but he does not have  a choice here

I am not sure Kban1.  I personally feel the people around him are not advising him right.  Probably SG is dragged into this but there are better ways to handle this than writing an e-mail.  After burning his hand with the e-mail issue once one would think that SG would have taken secrets ways to take care of things this time around.

This email was publicly declared by Mr. Mukherjee at a press conference. So there's no question of burning his fingers with this. He did it openly. It was not supposed to be secret as his brother himself was involved in it. And let's not confuse it with the other email. SG didn't burn his hand with the 'other' email on his own accord. Many of us in the past believed what SG is himself telling us now regarding that email and who leaked it. Regarding your opinion about there's a better way to handle this than writing an email, let's SG decide that. Other than focussing on his cricket part which we all agree, how to handle this issue without the email will be a serious debate amongst us I am sure. So let's not say that sending the email was wrong on SG's part. Other means would have been viewed as wrong by other people too.
Just curious as to why you want things to be released through third parties.  One would think if want to take a stand and say something you would do that directly.  This is where things get complicated when you involve others.  It is again my opinion.  I also feel in the long run it is going to hurt him.

What's the problem if he sends the email and supports Mr. Mukherjee and also mentions the misgivings of JD in it? The fact that he's supporting Mr. Mukherjee is good enough. The stand is regarding his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'using third party', then be it. I don't see any issue here. He's clearly lending his support for Mr. Mukherjee. If you call it 'involving others', then it can't be helped. Mr. Mukherjee is fighting the election against JD and SG is supporting him. It's that simple really. Why would SG directly take it up with JD? And even if he does that, do you think certain people would stop calling him names like crybabies etc.? As a lot of people said, it's a lose-lose situation for anyways. The SG-bashers will not spare him anyway. So better do what he thinks is the right thing to do. About whether it'll hurt him in the long run, hasn't he suffered enough already? How worse can it get?
Jai:Something called legacy is what I had in mind (beyond cricket), when I said it hurts SG in the long run.  Ofcourse we have differing views on the issue.  No harm in it.

Fine. But let me ask you this. If you were in SG's position trying to make a comeback, will be more concerned 'right now' about the issues/wrongdoings you have facred/still facing or about what is your legacy going to be when you retire? Let's leave the 'focus on cricket' bit here because everyone unanimously agree on that point.

Good question - the point is though - SG is not gaining anything by having this public spat ... fact is - he used JD and JD used him - thats how
politics works. SG should get real about that and maintain whatever little dignity he is left with.

This public spat? Today was the first time anything came out from SG that is against JD and you have already reached the conclusion that he's not gaining anything. How? He has kept quiet so far. May be he has realised now that by keeping quiet, he's not going to gain anything.

** Yeah, sure - he'll gain Pawar's support and get back to Team India - what a great way to get back to the team !!

And if he doesn't get back to Team India, then what will be your reaction? Find another excuse to demean SG.

 And who are you to decide how much dignity SG is left with? Instead of asking SG to get real, I think it'll be prudent for you not to make absurd statements.
** I am an unbiased Indian cricket fan - unlike you :) I think it woul;d be prudent for you to use your brains instead of your heart.


ROFL. Do you know the meaning of the word 'unbiased'? I can use both brains and heart, you should learn to use at least one.

Let's stick to civil discussions with points that can be discussed and debated.
** Heh Heh - funny that *you* should talk about being civil - my posts are always civil ...

Don't think so...for someone who talks about how much dignity is left in a person without any basis, that's not sign of a civil post.

Neither you nor anyone can actually decide how much dignity SG or anyone else is left with. Alright?
** Nope - I sure can decide how much dignity SG is left with since I am observing all the tamasha just as you are ...
I am as entitled to my opinion as you are and you had better learn to live with that ... buddy.


Aah...the opinion thing. I know I know...opinion is like an A**hole, everyone has one. You can call yourself 'unbiased' and claim you know how much dignity is left in SG, but what's the use? I can make other tall claims without having to prove it. Also, just because you are entitled to your opinion, don't assume that people are not going to react if you post them here. It's a public discussion forum after all. So learn to live with public reactions.


Jai - after reading your responses - I can only laugh - you're either SG himself or his relative ...
else why would you get so personal and offensive ??

So that said .. I will say that your rebuttal points are so emotional and devoid of logic that I'd be wasting my time responding in kind ..
Whatever , man ....


I had told you earlier to be civil in your responses, but you claimed your posts are always civil. If by supporting SG, I become SG himself or his relative, then what about you? Just because you included the phrase "I am an unbiased fan", do you really think people are going to believe it? This has always made me laugh. All anti-SG folks while referring to themselves use this term 'unbiased fan' and accuse anyone for even remotely supporting SG for being his mouthpiece, his relative etc. etc. Why so? Don't you guys have a better logic to defend yourselves? And yeah, my points are devoid of logic, and you are quoting from Bible when you say that SG has little dignity left. Learn to argue with points and logic first, both of which you lack now. Your posts right now are full of hatred. Using the disclaimer 'I am an unbiased fan' is not going to help. There's hardly anyone on this DG. Grow up without wasting any more time.



LOL !!

Amazing response....have you really enjoyed this post OR have you given up...the latter seems more appropriate .. ;)

Its the former - buddy boy ... these responses are only worth laughing at .. lighten up.


That is a very subtle way of saying the other guy is right and I have no answer..it is more of a nervous giggle than a LOL...or a LOL that does not carry conviction....and both of us know the truth, don't we...buddy boy.... ::)

That is just your interpretation , buudy boy.
I don't really give a &*&*^ what you think - so if you want the last word on this , thats ok.
Logged

Libran

  • Marketing Moderator
  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7,614
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #143 on: July 23, 2006, 03:35:28 PM »

I am happy that you don't give a whatever.....neither do most of us here...But, an inappropriate LOL is very interesting in its own way....Just as you have your interpretation of issues, so do most, if not all of us here.

And thanks for letting me have the last word, anyways
Logged

Cover Point

  • Member
  • Team of the Century
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,649
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #144 on: July 23, 2006, 03:49:02 PM »

Bottomline is this--who would you rather have come into bat when India is chasing 250 in the WC semi-finals...Rao? Raina? Uthappa? Gambhir? Or Ganguly?

For me, the answer is obvious. Sooner or later Ganguly (and Kumble) have to be brought back.

if we are looking to bring in old washed up has beens I would look at N S Sidhu instead! At least he would be able to sledge the bowlers a bit!
Logged

justforkix

  • Global Moderator
  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14,896
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #145 on: July 23, 2006, 03:54:39 PM »

if we are looking to bring in old washed up has beens I would look at N S Sidhu instead!

HUH - there you go again - comparing an active contracted player with an ex-cricketer who has retired. While we are it, letz bring back the entire 1983 WC team bowling attack. Our chances of winning the WC increases 10-fold ;)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2006, 03:59:22 PM by justforkix »
Logged

Cover Point

  • Member
  • Team of the Century
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,649
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #146 on: July 23, 2006, 03:58:17 PM »

if we are looking to bring in old washed up has beens I would look at N S Sidhu instead!

HUH - there you go again. While we are it, letz bring back the entire 1983 WC team bowling attack. Our chances of winning the WC increases 10-fold ;)

Only extrapolating from Dexy's comment. Per that logic .. this is logical :)
Logged

kban1

  • Administrator
  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,966
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #147 on: July 23, 2006, 05:47:01 PM »

flute:

One time clarification for the points you raised, so I shall keep it reasonably short

Quote
kban1, read my comments clearly before asking me to
do fact checking. where did I mention that More was chief selector? is it your considered opinion that somehow More's credentials as selector needs to be discounted since he was not chief selector during SG/JW? why are you so eager to give all the credit to SG for whatever success we had during that time? what about cooperation from selectors,coach, JD? why did KM suddenly become a villain after SG is dropped?


No, you did not mention KM was chief selector –I stated that to put the issue in perspective. The reasoning being a chief selector, despite having a single vote has say over issues such as when to convene a meeting, molding the agenda, having an important say in the selection process etc etc.

KM did not become a villain because SG was dropped –as a matter of fact he is not a villain, he has just been bad performancewise.

Quote
now, taken as a whole,to me, above can only imply that KM is a fool.

Sorry, if that’s what it implied to you in the context.That was not the intent of the comment –the intent was to say “tolerate him in his role despite his shortcomings". Hope that clarifies.

Quote
Atleast to me and to a lot of others on this DG, it did be a tragedy if SG makes it back to team by switching sides and notthing to show on the field. You think this type of involvement is OK since it will put him out of dog house. ?To me, this type of involvement will essentially put him in dog house.


It would be unfortunate if he walks back without runs, I agree. If you read my post, You will notice I said runs are the criteria. This will probably get him in contention for selection (not actually get selected) only If he scores runs

Please recall that currently he is out of contention –that is he will not be selected even if he scores runs as per KM’s public statements.

Quote
irrespective of your opinion of flights and fancy, it is a fact that KM,GC & RD been put down on this DG with single minded devotion simply because their very existence is stoping SG from coming back. Of course, in your very own real world, things work differently and things are interpreted differently.

there are people who will be criticized for their actions. KM (by virtue of public statements) and GC (by virtue of public + pvt comments that were reported + simple logic) fit the bill as prime accused in keeping SG for their personal reasons.

Quote
I think to your trained legal mind, finding loop holes becomes a habit and hence the problem. read my comments in context. they were in response to your comments about "understanding" of indian and western cultures and how what is acceptable and what is not. My response was, the issue is not about acceptability of showing middle finger, it is about making huge deal of it. you ignored this difference because you were too eager to score points about people's lack of understanding of culturally acceptable behaviour.

if for you it is a huge deal, be my guest, shout from roof tops about it, I don't care. just don't imply that I don't have understnading of indian or western cultures or acceptability of certain gestures.

for the nth time, to me, this finger wagging was something in poor taste and poor judgement. it also shows some lack of sophistication. but, it doesn't make the person a villian or someone unworthy of his job or reflect badly on his abilities. it has no bearing on his performance in so far as indian cricket is concerned. it is not a insult to bengal, as it is made out to be. He had provocation and he was heckled and abused, and he responded using poor judgment. thats all..nothing more, nothing less.


Sorry, but you were not the intended target of my comment  -- I clearly said some on this DG. Maybe I should have specifically excepted you to make it clearer.   My comment was more apropos to those who supported it or thought it was normal.

And as far as me shouting from rooftops --ROFL, I find it amusing considering you introduced that incident in the debate. I did not.

Quote
the point I was trying to make is, meeting a judge during trial in his chambers is OK, but meeting a judge at his home or in his hotel room is not approprite, is it? also, in this case, we can consider them as jurors and not judges, because this was essentially a committee. meeting or interacting with accused or defender is much more stringent in case of jurors. In the same way, SG meeting JD one hour before meeting without rest of the committe reeks of "compromise" plan. Anyway, to me , it was not appropriate. if you think it was OK, since there were 5 others(oh yes 5 others  I TOTALLY get it, 5 other totally independent, free from pressure from BCCI president even though they are relating to cricket).


My POV on this is very similar to ur POV on the KM_GC coaching tie up. It does not look good but is not a clear cut B&W issue as you made it sound. And the crucial distinction in this case is that unlike the KM-GC case where there is no oversight, here the committee had 4 other members which included the elite panel (RS, SV & SMG) with whom SG had no contact –recall this panel was specifically put together for their opinions and decisions about the issue –that creates for a significant mitigant to the appearance of wrong doing given that none of the three are known for kow towing to officialdom.

Quote
I don't have time for this. You in fact agreed with me when I said, there is no enough evidence to say for certain what exactly happened about that meeting. do not turn around now and claim having proved it as a fact, as if you were a lizard on the wall when SG got a call from pawar asking him to meet him. indeed cut it out..plz

I seriously suggest you find the time to go and re visit the original thread. In our last exchange on this topic (incidentally on a completely different thread than the original one), the gist of your comment was:

The details are fuzzy, I do not exactly remember but kban, I think I showed there is a possibility that there was some media byplay here, so it cannot be said with ultimate certainty that Pawar initiated the invitation.

And my response was –based on the evidence at hand, it is clear that Pawar indicated he was open to a tete-a-tete with SG. Your scenarios about media by play are plausible but there is no evidence to show that. Keeping that in mind, I can agree that it cannot be said with ultimate certainty.

So basically I was agreeing with your hypothesis that other things may have happened. But I made it quite clear that there although they might have happened, there is no evidence to support this hypothesis yet.
Logged

dextrous

  • Administrator
  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16,763
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #148 on: July 23, 2006, 07:33:52 PM »

if we are looking to bring in old washed up has beens I would look at N S Sidhu instead!

HUH - there you go again. While we are it, letz bring back the entire 1983 WC team bowling attack. Our chances of winning the WC increases 10-fold ;)

Only extrapolating from Dexy's comment. Per that logic .. this is logical :)

As far as old has-been washed-up comedic jokes go, you certainly have a good quota of those. I'm surprised you didn't call for Gavaskar and lala Amarnath's recall as well. Logic, of course, is not your forte.
Logged

proloy

  • Test Match Star
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 466
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #149 on: July 23, 2006, 10:24:47 PM »

What Ganguly has done here is just plain wrong, apart from being utterly disgusting. You do not betray someone who has all through been your mentor. Don't know what kind of advice Ganguly is working on these days.

Even leaving aside the merits of the respective candidates -- the police commissioner versus Dalmiya -- does anyone fancy him doing a better job than a Dalmiya? -- can someone even claim that Sharad Pawar himself, man-to-man, is a more able cricket administrator than Dalmiya, if one keeps one's dark-glasses of SG hatred aside ? -- Ganguly has no business recommending who should be administering. His job is to play, and he should stick to that.

But then, that's probably how realpolitik works. Chappell betrayed Ganguly to whom he owed his job, and is flourishing. Ganguly must have taken a leaf out of the manual of his coach.
Logged

flute202020

  • Guest
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #150 on: July 23, 2006, 11:28:05 PM »

I seriously suggest you find the time to go and re visit the original thread. In our last exchange on this topic (incidentally on a completely different thread than the original one), the gist of your comment was:

The details are fuzzy, I do not exactly remember but kban, I think I showed there is a possibility that there was some media byplay here, so it cannot be said with ultimate certainty that Pawar initiated the invitation.

And my response was –based on the evidence at hand, it is clear that Pawar indicated he was open to a tete-a-tete with SG. Your scenarios about media by play are plausible but there is no evidence to show that. Keeping that in mind, I can agree that it cannot be said with ultimate certainty.

So basically I was agreeing with your hypothesis that other things may have happened. But I made it quite clear that there although they might have happened, there is no evidence to support this hypothesis yet.
kban1, NOW, I think we somewhat on same wave. Indeed my point was, it is not an established fact as to who initiated the meeting. There are questions in the video which basically seemed like leading, something like "are you willing to meet SG?" type of questions. also, as you said, later on in the interview, may be pawar asked to meet with SG, or there is a rediff report which mentioned SG requesting the meeting. To me, it seemed like either side is shy of openly asking for a meeting, used bindra & media to send feelers. If a person asks me in a interview if I will meet someone if needed and if I answer in affirmative, it doesn't become an invitation for the meeting. Either pawar privately asked the journo to ask him that question or media played the messenger for SG. We cannot say for certain if Pawar or SG initiated the meeting. Now, if you believe that SG was only honouring a request from pawar, I think it is your opinion, but to me , it is not an established fact as you made it out to be in various threads. It did cause some disapointment for a few because it seemed like SG skipped a first class match to meet Pawar(a meeting either initiated by him or requested by pawar).
 
Logged

Jai

  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,057
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #151 on: July 23, 2006, 11:29:00 PM »

What Ganguly has done here is just plain wrong, apart from being utterly disgusting. You do not betray someone who has all through been your mentor. Don't know what kind of advice Ganguly is working on these days.

Even leaving aside the merits of the respective candidates -- the police commissioner versus Dalmiya -- does anyone fancy him doing a better job than a Dalmiya? -- can someone even claim that Sharad Pawar himself, man-to-man, is a more able cricket administrator than Dalmiya, if one keeps one's dark-glasses of SG hatred aside ? -- Ganguly has no business recommending who should be administering. His job is to play, and he should stick to that.

But then, that's probably how realpolitik works. Chappell betrayed Ganguly to whom he owed his job, and is flourishing. Ganguly must have taken a leaf out of the manual of his coach.

You should put yourself in SG's shoes first before commenting that what he has done is utterly wrong. Remember that SG believes his mentor or the chamchas of his mentor betrayed him first. He chose to support his mentor's opposition only now. You can term it a betrayal on SG's part, but SG still believes that it came from the other side first. Now whether there is any truth to it or not, that's a different issue. But SG as of now certainly believes that. What would you have done in SG's place if you believe that your one time mentor has let you down and almost finished your career? Are you still going to be loyal just because he was your mentor once? Loyality works only when both are on the same wave length. Replace the names JD and SG here with mentor x and protegee y. One can expect y to remain loyal only until x continues to mentor him, not forever or not if x has done something wrong to y.
Logged

ramshorns

  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13,029
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #152 on: July 23, 2006, 11:29:58 PM »

What Ganguly has done here is just plain wrong, apart from being utterly disgusting. You do not betray someone who has all through been your mentor. Don't know what kind of advice Ganguly is working on these days.

Even leaving aside the merits of the respective candidates -- the police commissioner versus Dalmiya -- does anyone fancy him doing a better job than a Dalmiya? -- can someone even claim that Sharad Pawar himself, man-to-man, is a more able cricket administrator than Dalmiya, if one keeps one's dark-glasses of SG hatred aside ? -- Ganguly has no business recommending who should be administering. His job is to play, and he should stick to that.
But then, that's probably how realpolitik works. Chappell betrayed Ganguly to whom he owed his job, and is flourishing. Ganguly must have taken a leaf out of the manual of his coach.
Good post Proloy.  I have been expressing similar sentiments all along.  Leaving aside Chappell betraying SG, which I have no idea of(but I can see why some feel that way), SG should just be playing and trying harder.  Administration and politics are the last things SG should be involved in at this point.  I know there are his hardcore fans who say that he has no choice but I am on the opposite end with regards to this issue.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2006, 11:32:08 PM by ramshorns »
Logged

kban1

  • Administrator
  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,966
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #153 on: July 23, 2006, 11:54:59 PM »

flute:

I am glad we cleared that up to a reasonable degree.

Quote
It did cause some disapointment for a few because it seemed like SG skipped a first class match to meet Pawar(a meeting either initiated by him or requested by pawar).

I think the argument started with CP because of this but as I was telling CP he is a little off on the timeline. SG missed the match not because of the meeting --he missed it because he took personal time off to go on vacation or something. Thats an important distinction -- his prior engaegment which resulted in him missing the match was approved by CAB and preceded any talk of a possible meeting.
Logged

inoc

  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,707
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #154 on: July 24, 2006, 12:06:56 AM »

jai

agree with you on this one.
Logged

prfsr

  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,755
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #155 on: July 24, 2006, 12:09:55 AM »

If I were SG, I would feel betrayed the moment JD made RSM his candidate. This is the person SG accuses of trying his best to destroy SG's nascent career with false allegations. SG had very harsh words for this man (RSM) long before he became the Indian captain.

-P
Logged

dhruvdeepak

  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14,561
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #156 on: July 24, 2006, 10:05:49 AM »

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/india/content/story/254294.html

Dalmiya accuses Bindra of manipulation

In another rejoinder to Sourav Ganguly's scathing email, Jagmohan Dalmiya has claimed it was a witch-hunt devised by his detractors in the Punjab Cricket Association (PCA). Dalmiya has accused Inderjit Singh Bindra, the PCA president and a friend-turned-rival, of attempting to alienate and neutralise him.

Speaking to The Times of India, Dalmiya highlighted his far-from-amicable relationship with Bindra. "Isn't it an open secret? This is nothing but a witch-hunt," he said. "I know who is behind all this. Mohali is the epicentre of all my troubles. He [Bindra] tried to implicate me in a false case, accusing me of financial irregularities. We are witnessing a blatant misuse of power."

Since last year's BCCI election, where Dalmiya's candidate for the president's post was defeated, Dalmiya has found the going tough even in his home city of Kolkata. With the Cricket Association of Bengal (CAB) set to hold elections soon, Dalmiya has labeled Ganguly's attack as "pitiable".

"I can't believe it's genuine...if it is then it's very sad," he said. "When I was in power I tried to help him as much as I could. The Board appointed top lawyers to hear his appeals against match referees. I don't know much about this e-mail, but if he [Ganguly] indeed feels I have ruined his career, it's pitiable. In my entire career as cricket administrator, I have never harmed anyone knowingly, nor have I resorted to any witch-hunt something that is going on against me. I will surely bounce back."

Dalmiya even questioned Bindra and Lalit Modi, the BCCI vice-president's, ascendancy to power. "Let us not get into the ways used by them to grab power," he said. "Everyone [in the Board] knows what ethical and unethical ways they used to woo voters."

Bindra, in response to the accusations, said: "If Dalmiya feels Mohali is the epicentre of his troubles, he should not forget that he was the epicentre of our troubles. After having gone through so much, I will be the last person to get vindictive. It was Dalmiya who claimed that he can never lose a BCCI election as he knew all about manipulating the voters. I don't think he should be talking about this."

"It is surprising that of all people Dalmiya is talking about ethics. I just want to tell him one thing - he must understand that if he has any sympathiser left in the BCCI, it is Inderjit Singh Bindra," he added. "At any stage, if he wants my help, I shall readily do so for the sake of an old friendship."

In regards to the legal action taken against Dalmiya earlier this year, Bindra was cutthroat: "Where have the Board accounts disappeared? Why is he not submitting them? It was he who threw me out of the BCCI because I spoke in my personal capacity about match-fixing - among others things - something that was later proved by the Central Bureau of Investigation. He stopped the Board money that was due to PCA. Was that not witch-hunting?"

© Cricinfo
Logged
In the attitude of silence the soul finds the path in a clearer light, and what is elusive and deceptive resolves itself into crystal clearness. Our life is a long and arduous quest after Truth.
-- Mohandas K *hi

ramshorns

  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13,029
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #157 on: July 24, 2006, 12:09:10 PM »

'Dalmiya faction did not leak Chappell's email'


Dismissing insinuations by Sourav Ganguly that Jagmohan Dalmiya had leaked coach Greg Chappell's controversial e-mail, West Bengal sports minister Subhas Chakraborty on Monday claimed that those being targeted by the former Indian captain are innocent.

"Ganguly's allegations are not correct. I can say with full responsibility that those, against whom he has made the allegation, did not leak the mail," Chakraborty told newspersons in the assembly lobby.

In a sign of revolt against Dalmiya, Ganguly had sent an e-mail on Friday, making allegations against his longtime mentor and his group in the Cricket Association of Bengal.

The former Indian captain chose the upcoming elections for the presidentship of CAB to hit out at Dalmiya, facing a challenge for the post from Kolkata police commissioner Prasun Mukherjee.

"People who leak e-mails and sacrifice players' careers should be heavily punished. There are people in CAB who are playing with players' careers to suit them. They should not be allowed to go scot-free as it takes years of hard work to reach a certain level in sports," Ganguly said in the e-mail.

 

http://ia.rediff.com/cricket/2006/jul/24dal.htm
Logged

flute202020

  • Guest
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #158 on: July 24, 2006, 02:03:12 PM »

What Ganguly has done here is just plain wrong, apart from being utterly disgusting. You do not betray someone who has all through been your mentor. Don't know what kind of advice Ganguly is working on these days.

Even leaving aside the merits of the respective candidates -- the police commissioner versus Dalmiya -- does anyone fancy him doing a better job than a Dalmiya? -- can someone even claim that Sharad Pawar himself, man-to-man, is a more able cricket administrator than Dalmiya, if one keeps one's dark-glasses of SG hatred aside ? -- Ganguly has no business recommending who should be administering. His job is to play, and he should stick to that.
But then, that's probably how realpolitik works. Chappell betrayed Ganguly to whom he owed his job, and is flourishing. Ganguly must have taken a leaf out of the manual of his coach.
Good post Proloy.  I have been expressing similar sentiments all along.  Leaving aside Chappell betraying SG, which I have no idea of(but I can see why some feel that way), SG should just be playing and trying harder.  Administration and politics are the last things SG should be involved in at this point.  I know there are his hardcore fans who say that he has no choice but I am on the opposite end with regards to this issue.
good post Rams. I tend to agree with you. Up until now, I was of the opinion that may be SG needs to considered for ODIs, but looking at all the politicking involved, may be it is best to keep him away from dressing room. I know people come up with explainations for everything but to me, way too many things are unpleasant about thewhole SG saga which makes me uncomfortable in supporting him, look at the following

1.dreadful form with Pak
2.JD props him up by giving him captaincy in Zim tour
3. Makes a scratchy century and talks about dressing room things
4. VVS makes a century and talks about noises in dressing room, is it any indication of what SG told him? we will never know, may be in autobiography of VVS.
5.Goes and meets JD before the review committe meeting
5. Meets pawar before Pak tour and gets selected riding on political & public pressure
6. sends email about JD & supporting the commissioner

I know there is explaination for each of the above from SG fans, but to me, there is too much of a pattern to ignore all of them. During the whole saga, the only bright spot is brief good domestic performances.

If anyone remembers the movie Disclosure, Michael Douglas (a sexual harrassment victim) gets an email from "A friend" asking him to SOLVE THE PROBLEM. I guess SG too needs to get the same suggestion, "SOLVE THE PROBLEM" i.e score runs, loads of them. Nobody can keep him out if he scores runs because he has a huge fan base which will start making noises if he scores runs and fails to get a chance. Just get out of unneccessary politics. The problem with these public politics is, even when he gets in with performances, people will point fingers.
Logged

prfsr

  • Team of the Century
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,755
Re: New Can of Worms from Ganguly
« Reply #159 on: July 24, 2006, 02:41:41 PM »

The situation in Calcutta, as described by newspapers, is as follows.

1. Every past player who has commented has come out in support of Ganguly, or said that the allegations should be treated seriously. The opposition group in fact contains quite a few players.

2. Among politicians there is a great divide -- the "old" CPM, Jyoti Basu and people from his cabinet, are pro-JD. The newer, younger lot, including the current CM is for the opposing lot. They in fact pressured SG to come up with the email and support.

It is great to see that the same people on this DG who thought that communists were the devil go back and support Jyoti Basu. SG should join the CPM as a recruiter now :) The same people also thought JD was the devil, but I guess he too has become a great man these days :)

As for SG, there is an interview on ABP today. Sadly I do not have time to translate now, but I may be able to do it tonight if nobody else does it. In short, he refuses to talk about this and says that he considers his county stint unsuccessful so far in terms of scoring runs and is trying to accumulate as many runs in the remaining matches. Regarding his failures in the 4-day matches he says there are no valid reasons or excuses, he just was not able to settle down.
He also says something on the lines of he does not expect to be back unless he scores runs.

-P
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Up