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Author Topic: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)  (Read 6741 times)

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kban1

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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2006, 08:22:54 PM »

Quote
well join a group already, or start one of your own. dont be sitting on the fence 

as i said, zidane being a loser doesnt take away his previous world cup etc, but he lost it ystday when his team needed him . on this DG and in the media there have been millions of articles, words spent on zidane the great, on how it should be a fairytale finish for him. but there wasnt, end of story. we saw what happened, and the story of the world cup final should not be about him, it is about italy. my quarrel is that rather than focus on who won the world cup, all the attention is on why france didnt win or zidane didnt win.


I think you know where I stand. And I think you also understand what contrast I referred to here.

The point being, you cannot employ different logic to judge different people when the circumstances are reasonably similar with no mitigations to substantially differentiate from one to the other.

 :D
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pieterSAN

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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2006, 08:24:26 PM »

very funny thread:

There is one group which says Zidane is a loser irrespective of his past achievements because he resorted to a head butt which is shameful act and unacceptable no matter what the provocation.

There is another group says the act is unacceptable but there are mitigants.


Hmmmm, striking contrast from opinions put forward wrt the flexing of an injured appendage the day before a match at Eden.

 :D :D
well join a group already, or start one of your own. dont be sitting on the fence  ;D

as i said, zidane being a loser doesnt take away his previous world cup etc, but he lost it ystday when his team needed him . on this DG and in the media there have been millions of articles, words spent on zidane the great, on how it should be a fairytale finish for him. but there wasnt, end of story. we saw what happened, and the story of the world cup final should not be about him, it is about italy. my quarrel is that rather than focus on who won the world cup, all the attention is on why france didnt win or zidane didnt win.

Not trying to be a killjoy here but this Italian win was not going to be celebrated by the world. The world is celebrating the brilliant performance by Germany. Again this is analagous to Euro 2004 where Czech Republic won all hearts before the fell to Greece in the semis who went on to win. While Italy will go down in history as champs, Germany is team that people have enjoyed watching.
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pieterSAN

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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2006, 08:31:28 PM »

Quote
well join a group already, or start one of your own. dont be sitting on the fence 

as i said, zidane being a loser doesnt take away his previous world cup etc, but he lost it ystday when his team needed him . on this DG and in the media there have been millions of articles, words spent on zidane the great, on how it should be a fairytale finish for him. but there wasnt, end of story. we saw what happened, and the story of the world cup final should not be about him, it is about italy. my quarrel is that rather than focus on who won the world cup, all the attention is on why france didnt win or zidane didnt win.


I think you know where I stand. And I think you also understand what contrast I referred to here.

The point being, you cannot employ different logic to judge different people when the circumstances are reasonably similar with no mitigations to substantially differentiate from one to the other.

 :D

Kban,
Please compare and contrast in 10000 word essay - The Case of Serial Headbutter and The Case of The Extended Digit.

Seriously - how can you say the incident was similar or that the circumstances were similar?

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suraj

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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2006, 08:41:34 PM »

very funny thread:

There is one group which says Zidane is a loser irrespective of his past achievements because he resorted to a head butt which is shameful act and unacceptable no matter what the provocation.

There is another group says the act is unacceptable but there are mitigants.


Hmmmm, striking contrast from opinions put forward wrt the flexing of an injured appendage the day before a match at Eden.

 :D :D
well join a group already, or start one of your own. dont be sitting on the fence  ;D

as i said, zidane being a loser doesnt take away his previous world cup etc, but he lost it ystday when his team needed him . on this DG and in the media there have been millions of articles, words spent on zidane the great, on how it should be a fairytale finish for him. but there wasnt, end of story. we saw what happened, and the story of the world cup final should not be about him, it is about italy. my quarrel is that rather than focus on who won the world cup, all the attention is on why france didnt win or zidane didnt win.

Not trying to be a killjoy here but this Italian win was not going to be celebrated by the world. The world is celebrating the brilliant performance by Germany. Again this is analagous to Euro 2004 where Czech Republic won all hearts before the fell to Greece in the semis who went on to win. While Italy will go down in history as champs, Germany is team that people have enjoyed watching.

Finally toh jo jeeta woh sikander- Italy won and that should be celebrated. Why wud te world celebrate a team that gave away 2 goals in the last 2 mins of extra time to get knocked out of the tournament

20 yrs later Italy will be remembered for winning the 2006 WC and not who was "enjoyable watching"
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suraj

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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2006, 08:42:03 PM »

Quote
well join a group already, or start one of your own. dont be sitting on the fence 

as i said, zidane being a loser doesnt take away his previous world cup etc, but he lost it ystday when his team needed him . on this DG and in the media there have been millions of articles, words spent on zidane the great, on how it should be a fairytale finish for him. but there wasnt, end of story. we saw what happened, and the story of the world cup final should not be about him, it is about italy. my quarrel is that rather than focus on who won the world cup, all the attention is on why france didnt win or zidane didnt win.


I think you know where I stand. And I think you also understand what contrast I referred to here.

The point being, you cannot employ different logic to judge different people when the circumstances are reasonably similar with no mitigations to substantially differentiate from one to the other.

 :D

Kban,
Please compare and contrast in 10000 word essay - The Case of Serial Headbutter and The Case of The Extended Digit.

Seriously - how can you say the incident was similar or that the circumstances were similar?



There is no similarity
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kban1

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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2006, 08:46:07 PM »

jiet:

Why do you not show me the difference here  - one that exonerates our coach but condemns Zizou ?

read the context of my comment --the context was the reaction this act of Zizou elicited on this DG

headbutt -shameful act
extended digit - unacceptable act

The reactions about the former:

a) Zizou is a loser, irrespective of provocation
b) mitigants are there, but act is still shameful.


The reactions about the latter:

a) Nothing wrong with it, it is acceptable mode of showing disgust
b) There was lot of provocation, so justified
c) Even if not acceptable, perfectly understandable given the provocation.

In the latter case, there were only a handful who condemned the act outright as shameful.

All sorts of elaborate excuses were made for that action by the majority of DGians because it happened to be associated with our own guy, i.e., our cricket coach.

Understandable, not a big deal, provoked, etc etc

I find it funny when some of the same posters who exonerated a shameful extended digit is jumping on another personality for a shameful headbutt.

See the selective and convenient use of judgmental standards now ?

There, didnt take a 1000 words!!  ;D ;D
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kban1

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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2006, 08:48:15 PM »

Quote
There is no similarity

Must be since you say so.

Headbutting is shameful

A public flipping off is not shameful.

We all judge what we want to judge, protocol, etiquette, actions be damned --they are a nuisance anyway to our world views.
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pieterSAN

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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2006, 08:48:56 PM »

Finally toh jo jeeta woh sikander- Italy won and that should be celebrated. Why wud te world celebrate a team that gave away 2 goals in the last 2 mins of extra time to get knocked out of the tournament

Because they were not boring.

20 yrs later Italy will be remembered for winning the 2006 WC and not who was "enjoyable watching"

whoopti-****in-do. 20 years later there will be another WC with another boring team winning and another beautiful team being praised for beautiful football.
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suraj

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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2006, 09:00:53 PM »

Quote
There is no similarity

Must be since you say so.

Headbutting is shameful

A public flipping off is not shameful.

We all judge what we want to judge, protocol, etiquette, actions be damned --they are a nuisance anyway to our world views.

Headbutting costs the team WC- finger flipping does what?? Lets keep morals aside and instead of shameful/not shameful call Zidane's act plain stupidity that possibly ruined his contribution to the French hopes. No comparison to GC's act because right or wrong he could not win/lose the Calcutta game for us
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suraj

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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2006, 09:02:59 PM »

Finally toh jo jeeta woh sikander- Italy won and that should be celebrated. Why wud te world celebrate a team that gave away 2 goals in the last 2 mins of extra time to get knocked out of the tournament

Because they were not boring.

20 yrs later Italy will be remembered for winning the 2006 WC and not who was "enjoyable watching"

whoopti-****in-do. 20 years later there will be another WC with another boring team winning and another beautiful team being praised for beautiful football.


Boring/not boring is very subjective- patience, good defense and being opportunistic are not neccesarily boring.

"beautiful football" lasted 118 mins in the crucial game and then gave way to abject surrender.
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kban1

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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2006, 09:09:01 PM »

suraj:

Quote
Headbutting costs the team WC- finger flipping does what?? Lets keep morals aside and instead of shameful/not shameful call Zidane's act plain stupidity that possibly ruined his contribution to the French hopes. No comparison to GC's act because right or wrong he could not win/lose the Calcutta game for us


No arguments if you are arguing stupidity and how it affects match situation. You are correct.

That is not what I was arguing though --my argument was different.
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pieterSAN

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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2006, 09:13:42 PM »

jiet:

Why do you not show me the difference here  - one that exonerates our coach but condemns Zizou ?

read the context of my comment --the context was the reaction this act of Zizou elicited on this DG

headbutt -shameful act
extended digit - unacceptable act

The reactions about the former:

a) Zizou is a loser, irrespective of provocation
b) mitigants are there, but act is still shameful.


The reactions about the latter:

a) Nothing wrong with it, it is acceptable mode of showing disgust
b) There was lot of provocation, so justified
c) Even if not acceptable, perfectly understandable given the provocation.

In the latter case, there were only a handful who condemned the act outright as shameful.

All sorts of elaborate excuses were made for that action by the majority of DGians because it happened to be associated with our own guy, i.e., our cricket coach.

Understandable, not a big deal, provoked, etc etc

I find it funny when some of the same posters who exonerated a shameful extended digit is jumping on another personality for a shameful headbutt.

See the selective and convenient use of judgmental standards now ?

There, didnt take a 1000 words!!  ;D ;D

As a matter of fact the world would not have made as big a deal out of an "extended digit". Here's an excerpt from wikipedia on David Beckham

The abuse that Beckham was receiving from English supporters peaked during England's 32 defeat by Portugal in Euro 2000, when a group of England supporters taunted him throughout the match with chants including "we hope your kid dies of cancer". It should be noted that this was a very small group of people (less than 10) and not the England fans as a whole.[10] Beckham responded with a one-fingered gesture and, while the gesture attracted some criticism, many of the newspapers that had previously encouraged his vilification asked their readers to stop abusing him.

A head-butt is an act of violence which you cannot compare to an "extended digit". They are not similar.

Regardless, defending GC's actions would be not right - it was inappopriate as the team coach (I would not call it shameful). I did say that the crowd deserved it for their actions. I would have done the same if I were there.

Zidane's act was shameful because he lost control as a player and let his team down. He should have controlled himself and yet I can understand the pressures that would have led him to lose control.

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pieterSAN

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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2006, 09:19:18 PM »

Finally toh jo jeeta woh sikander- Italy won and that should be celebrated. Why wud te world celebrate a team that gave away 2 goals in the last 2 mins of extra time to get knocked out of the tournament

Because they were not boring.

20 yrs later Italy will be remembered for winning the 2006 WC and not who was "enjoyable watching"

whoopti-****in-do. 20 years later there will be another WC with another boring team winning and another beautiful team being praised for beautiful football.


Boring/not boring is very subjective- patience, good defense and being opportunistic are not neccesarily boring.

"beautiful football" lasted 118 mins in the crucial game and then gave way to abject surrender.
Glad you enjoyed watching Italy. Serie A starts in about 6 weeks. You can enjoy more of the same stuff. From both sides.
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kban1

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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2006, 09:27:43 PM »

so you are using Beckham and what some English newspapers have said about his action as the standards of etiquette, protocol, behavior and acceptability ??  ::) ::)

The point is not the actions per se (headbutt, flipping) and what they achieve (injury, non injury) but the import of the actions from an acceptability standpoint.

Yes of course the crowd deserved it for their actions!!  --what actions, can you elaborate ? Remember, this happened one day before the actual match, after a practice session.

And as far as you doing the same if you were in GC's shoes -- We obviously have different standards.

Curiously, anywhere else in the world including the west where that gesture originated, an apology is tendered, a reprimand is issued, some action is taken. Wonder why we are so accepting of what is so universally (give or take a few London dailies when defending their son of the soil) condemned the world over -- from Australia to Yorkshire.
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pieterSAN

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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2006, 09:40:17 PM »

kban,

I suppose we do have different standards after all. Whenever I have been abused by people, I have tried to ignore it. Sometimes they have gotten to me at which time I have responded with my "extended digit" or choice words.  I am not ashamed of it.

The day I respond to abuse with a full-blooded head-butt, no matter how personal someone gets, will be the day I am ashamed of my actions.

Nevertheless, I do see your reasons for finding both actions unacceptable and bundling them together.
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kban1

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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2006, 10:00:13 PM »

PeieterSAN (why the name change ?)

Quote
I suppose we do have different standards after all. Whenever I have been abused by people, I have tried to ignore it. Sometimes they have gotten to me at which time I have responded with my "extended digit" or choice words.  I am not ashamed of it.


Then you missed my point.

Someone abuses you, you show restraint or if it is severe, then you abuse back or show a finger. Thats you as an individual. Its not a polite gesture but thats you the individual acting.

Does the scenario not change in your mind when you are the coach of the Indian team ?

Please re read my statement --my point was we obviously disagree on acceptability standards if you would do the same thing in GC's shoes. That implies not GC the person, but GC the Indian coach.

If your answer remains unchanged after considering the clarification, then I will say that we have different standards about acceptability of actions from a figure such as national coach.

I hope you see what i was trying to get at earlier.
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pieterSAN

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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2006, 10:07:16 PM »

PeieterSAN (why the name change ?)

Quote
I suppose we do have different standards after all. Whenever I have been abused by people, I have tried to ignore it. Sometimes they have gotten to me at which time I have responded with my "extended digit" or choice words.  I am not ashamed of it.


Then you missed my point.

Someone abuses you, you show restraint or if it is severe, then you abuse back or show a finger. Thats you as an individual. Its not a polite gesture but thats you the individual acting.

Does the scenario not change in your mind when you are the coach of the Indian team ?

Please re read my statement --my point was we obviously disagree on acceptability standards if you would do the same thing in GC's shoes. That implies not GC the person, but GC the Indian coach.

If your answer remains unchanged after considering the clarification, then I will say that we have different standards about acceptability of actions from a figure such as national coach.

I hope you see what i was trying to get at earlier.

Maybe I sound like I am neither here or there. But I still feel that as coach what GC did was inappopriate but not shameful. What he did was wrong, but I can think of worse things he can do that would be considered shameful.
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kban1

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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2006, 10:10:55 PM »

in some ways a matter of semantics -- I used the term shameful as a direct reference to a post on this DG.

But I think we agree broadly on the fact that his actions as coach were inappropriate.
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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2006, 04:52:04 AM »

LOL .. kban, the entire comparison is silly, in my view

One lost the match ... the other did nothing

What is appropriate / not appropriate is a very subjective matter that different people, depending on what their background is, will have different views on and will act differently.

However, what is *allowed* has no leeway for personal interpretation. You know the rules. You play by them. By breaking them, you are harming your team's interests. And that is shameful.

Arguing with the umpire or showing dissent at an umpire's decision in cricket is against the rules. And you will be punished. If a GC or any Indian player keeps doing it despite knowing the rules, he is harming the team's interest. That is shameful. However, the same thing is tolerated in football to a much larger extent. Hence, the same act is not shameful if done by a football player.

You take each incident out of the context and in a neutral scenario - i would not head butt anyone ... i do not generally show a finger to anyone either ... but i have no issues if anyone else does the latter ... at least it is more acceptable than a head butt - whether or not you are at anyone's dinner table.
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kban1

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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2006, 05:07:00 AM »

kic:

Sorry it seems you missed the point.

The point was the acceptability / appropriateness of the actions -- and how DG members were reacting differently to it. Condoning GC because he is our coach and castigating Zidane, possibly because we have no interest close to heart as it relates to him.

The bearing of the action on the match outcome has nothing to do with whether the actions are acceptable or not.

And yes, I agree it is subjective. For that matter some may consider a head butt ok too --Im sure there are people who will find that ok too.

Again you choose your context --the match to illustrate that a match has definite rules and a headbutt is not allowed.

by the same token, why not choose the proper context --etiquette for the extended finger. I think you will find that by all cannons of decency and etiquette, it is unacceptable. By almost every definition in western culture (and the gesture originated in the west) and most definitely here in India.

The surprise is that it was condoned here while similar gestures result in reprimands / apologies in places such as Australia and England.
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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2006, 05:19:44 AM »

kic:
The bearing of the action on the match outcome has nothing to do with whether the actions are acceptable or not.

I did not miss the point, kban. I do not agree with the above. It has everything to do with whether it is acceptable to me. For me, Zidane can go and headbutt or finger flip anyone he wants to on the street ... as long as he can take care of himself. But out here, he was part of the team and this action *could* have had an impact on the result of the game (it is too hypothetical to decide whether France would have won otherwise). That, to me, is shameful. It would have been as shameful, had he done something non-violent (like arguing with a refree on and on and therefore get a second yellow card) and been sent off too.

Outside of the game, what is appropriate / inappropriate / shameful etc really involves taking a moral stand on how someone should behave - which I am not sure I want to do or I would welcome if someone else does the same with my behaviour.
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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #61 on: July 11, 2006, 05:57:59 AM »

so you and I are looking at the issue from different perspectives aern't we ?

I am judging the action -yes, the moral stance to use your words. And you are judging the acceptability of the action as it pertains to the outcome of the game.

Which is why I said you missed the context in which I made the comment. if you re read my previous posts, I made it clear that my point had little to do with the actions as it pertained to the outcome of the match.
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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #62 on: July 11, 2006, 06:14:05 AM »

In that case, Kban, your comparison of the reactions here with those related to the GC incident is erroneous.

I just went through the thread from the beginning .. and almost everyone (if not all) who railed against Zidane's action calls it shameful / not done / inappropriate etc *GIVEN THE STATE OF THE GAME*

If your reasoning is independent of the context of the game, then these comments do not bear comparison with those related to GC - coz the comments themselves are not independent of the context.
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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2006, 06:26:22 AM »

well my comparison being deemed erroneous based on your perception of the context of the comments about Zidane is a bridge too far isnt it ?

I saw a few comments which had little reference to the game when judging zidane's actions. That is what I based my comments on and I stand by them.

if you feel they are not appropos to the context, then thats your opinion and you are entitled to them. I respectfully and politely disagree.

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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #64 on: July 11, 2006, 06:33:37 AM »

well my comparison being deemed erroneous based on your perception of the context of the comments about Zidane is a bridge too far isnt it ?

understanding this is the first bridge I have to cross ... once i do that, we can agree to disagree ...

P.S. whether i will be able to conjure up enough respect and politeness after that is something i cannot guarantee at the moment
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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2006, 06:39:38 AM »

Quote
understanding this is the first bridge I have to cross ... once i do that, we can agree to disagree ...


Thats entirely up to you whether you wish to cross or not. To me, it is apparent that we are interpreting the posts differently, hence the term "a bridge too far", and consequently the agree to disagree

Quote
P.S. whether i will be able to conjure up enough respect and politeness by then is something i cannot guarantee at the moment

To each his own. And please do not conjure up any on my account if it doesn't flow as is.  ;)
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Re: VIVA ITALIA (after Zizou red card)
« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2006, 06:46:18 AM »

Kban, trust you to split a joke and respond to that as well ... ;)

lest it need to be said .. nothing is conjured up!
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Sachin Tendulkar gave the muhurat clap for 'Awwal Number' - that apart, he hasn't done much wrong in the last 20 yrs!
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