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Author Topic: Geometry of field setting - India missed having the best possible captain :)  (Read 9022 times)

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fineleg

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http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1150318828

By  Prem Panicker  02:30 | 15/Jun/2006 | 0 Comment(s) 
 
 Windies 292/7; match drawn

My most treasured cricket picture is of a famous field set by Ian Chappell, that had all 10 men behind the batsman’s back as Dennis Lillee steamed in to bowl.

It’s the most arrogant challenge you can possibly throw at a batsman – there you go, off side free, leg side free, straight field free, make all the runs you want, if you can last.

Out of the box attitudes of that kind have historically been un-Indian; no contemporary captain I’ve seen lead has shown the remotest flair for the out of ordinary, the unexpected, the unusual (the late Indian charge against England at Nagpur is the only time in recent history we came close).

Manish and I were exchanging emails last evening, and in course of that, this is the point that I was making: Having lost an entire day, India go in to the final day with nothing to lose; there is no conceivable way the West Indies could have won.

The occasion called for extraordinary flair: A Kumble, or a Sehwag, say, bowling with slip, gully, silly point, silly mid off, silly mid on, short square, leg slip. It leaves just two men to patrol vast acreage – but so what?

You are basically telling the batsman there is a boundary to be had every ball, if you are good enough to keep hitting them through the full space of 90 overs. And even if you can, you still cannot win. Against that, all it takes is the slightest mistake, and you are gone, history.

I was telling Manish I didn’t expect Rahul Dravid to try something of the kind – just as I never expected any of his predecessors, over the past 30-odd years, to come up with the innovative, the startling, the unexpected.

And I wasn’t disappointed. By conventional yardsticks, the field placement remained aggressive throughout – several slips, gully, close catchers. But the geometry was textbook – and that same textbook contains answers the opposition knows by rote.

It was, interestingly, Lara who came up with unusual ploys – most notably, his stance, a good two and a half feet outside the stumps even when Munaf Patel bowled to him at speeds topping 137k. He employed the ploy throughout the day – that, and a deliberate front foot push into the zone outside line of off, to make sure the umpire had enough ‘doubt’ to give him the benefit of.

It was an unorthodox way to combat a pitch where the ball, rarely if ever bouncing above stump height, produced the danger of an LBW in every other ball – and most times, the unorthodox edges the conventional, as it did here.

The Indians can take some comfort in having dominated the series beginning with the third day at Antigua; also in having lost an entire day of play – but such things don’t show up at first glance on scoresheets; what does, is a score line of 0-0 after two played.

None of this is to take away from what has essentially been a good performance thus far. The team that came into this series with the reputation of never being able to play abroad, and carrying the further handicap of what has been termed a ‘popgun’ attack, has actually outplayed the opposition, on its home turf, with both bat and ball.

Both in Antigua and here, they have defied the established canon of Indian batsmen and fresh wickets, opting for first strike. And starting with the third day of the first Test, they have dominated every single session over 7 days of Test cricket.

Yet, it has been a case of thus far, no further – and time is running out. Shortly before the team left for the 2000-2001 tour of the West Indies, then coach John Wright in course of a chat pointed out that the only way India would shake the jinx of not winning a Test series abroad was by actually going out and winning one.

You need to snap the chain at some point, that is the only way to instill the belief that it can be done, he said then – and suggested that the West Indies tour was the best opportunity India had to do the deed.

That didn’t work out too well; six years later, though, the situation remains the same – the tour provides the best opportunity for the team to break through that barrier. To do that, in the time remaining, will take an attitudinal shift – after the debacle of the ODI series, the team appears to have lost a bit of its confidence with the bat; team selection has more of a care to buffering the batsmen, as opposed to looking to bowl the opposition out.

Given that Powar is totally raw (plus the wicket as it showed on day one never did look like a turning track), and the fitness problems of both Sreesanth and Harbhajan (incidentally, for those banging on about the mistake in dropping Harbhajan, what part of ‘unfit’ do you find difficult to understand?), there isn’t much the tour selectors could have done here – but going into the third Test, they are in the happy position of all bowlers being fit again.

And that ideally should dictate the selection – remove the buffer, jettison the extra batsman (on current form, the player who needs to draw the short straw is fairly obvious) and go in with a two spin, three seam attack (the seamers more for the first innings, the spinners more for the second). It is the composition they tried often, in recent times, at home – it is to my mind a composition they need even more in the Caribbean, where for the second time in two Tests, you’ve had a pitch that actually has gotten better with time (those watching will have noticed for instance that a pitch that was kicking up debris on day three played placid, with no sign of dust-devils, throughout today – a phenomenon at least in part likely due to the heavy rain, that would have dampened it just enough to bind).

There is one other aspect the team is consistently failing in – and that is identifying the right guy for the right fielding position, and sticking with it. In course of just this one day, I noticed for instance Yuvraj Singh fielding at slip, gully, point, cover, short square leg, midwicket and once, mid off.

Sorry, but Yuvi is no slip – and Kaif is no close fielder, period. To have a Wasim Jaffar patrolling at mid on while a Kaif, mans short square leg is misuse of resources on two counts. And not trying Yuvraj with the ball, as a surprise option, qualifies as more waste – which is not to say the part timer would have run through the team, but when the orthodox doesn’t work, it doesn’t hurt to try the other.

To underline it, shortly after Lara’s dismissal, Kumble in the 101st over got Bravo pushing one on the leg; Kaif got it on the boot at short square – and at the time, he was fully upright, his hands waist high above the ground level, which is bizarre for a close catcher. At the time, 16 overs minimum remained to be bowled – and sure enough, Kaif was removed from the position after the horse had bolted, and Yuvraj was brought back. (Incidentally, for tactical purposes, Laxman could have been ‘injured’ today, giving India the option of using Suresh Raina in the field – an out of the box bet missed).

Brian Lara got yet another of his many lives during the session when, in the 96th over, he took Sehwag on the pads, then shook his head and smiled at the concerted appeal. At the time, the commentators verbally echoed the smile – until the replay came on, and showed it was plumb. Just another incident, in an innings where, if all merited LBWs were given, this game would have been over before tea – but that is just something for the what-if file.

For the peace of mind of the Indians, Lara went, in the very next over. Again, Sewhag angled one in on the off; Lara looked to flick and was beaten, took it on the pad, finally got the finger, grimaced, smiled and signaled he thought he had been hard done by; predictably, the sparse crowd began booing the decision. (One of these days, this sort of cynical playing to the gallery is going to provoke ugliness – and likely, one of those interesting missives from Mount Dubai).[/size]

One aspect of the decision I am tempted to protest: Ian Bishop quickly called it not out; after a long gap, Jeremy Coney found a few questions to ask. And for once – the only time, today – the production crew left the Hawkeye out of it. How, just for academic interest, about showing the full monty, folks? How about showing the path of a ball you claim will miss off stump, just so we can see what it would have really hit? At the very least, it would have stopped the booing of the crowd.

No matter – it was a masterly display of leading by example. It took tremendous confidence to walk out at number three, with a wicket falling in the first over of the follow on innings, after having failed with the bat through the first three innings; it took tremendous discipline, enormous concentration, to battle against the natural grain, to stick it out for 307 deliveries, to ensure that his team did not crumble.

In the 107th over Bravo – who, an over ago, had danced down to loft Kumble over long off for six – was pushed back by a quicker delivery that turned, jumped, flicked bat and pad for Yuvraj, up close on the leg side, to take diving headlong forward (47.122; Windies 277/6).

Munaf Patel was brought on in the closing stages – and in the midst of an over in which he bowled his heart out, the seamer brought Ramdhin forward, found his edge, and the ball went right through the hands of Rahul Dravid, diving to his left at second slip. (That’s the other thing about fielding positions – if you spend half your life in one position, why move? Dravid traditionally fields at first, not second, slip – and there’s a difference in how fielders react in these two positions; witness the fact that Dravid was diving in front of first slip, who had the far better chance of making the catch. A tangential query – when did Sehwag, who used to snaffle some good ones, slip out of the slip cordon?).

In the next over, Bradshaw deliberately took a Kumble delivery on his pads. To quote Ian Bishop, “Hawkeye says that was straight enough, and low enough to have hit the stumps”. Ooops.

Next over – Bradshaw looks to play a full length delivery from Munaf Patel to leg; he misses, is hit on the pad. Jeff Dujon: “For my money, that was close”. Ian Bishop: “He was struck inside the line of off stump and that looks a very good shout indeed.” Hawkeye says it was going between middle and leg. Bishop: “Bradshaw lucky to be there, on two occasions.” Ooops.

Finally, Munaf got the consolation his bowling more than deserved – Bradshaw again shuffled into his crease, the full, straight, quick ball nailed the batsman in front of the stumps, and Asad Rauf figured what the hell, might as well give one (291/7).

It was too little too late, though – the next over was the last, and the West Indies walked off the park having pulled off yet another escape Houdini would be proud of. Both teams now get a bit of a breather, before the third Test – and, thank heaven, so do I!
 
 
 
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kban1

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Agreed with much of what PP says here but a couple of things I did disagree with.

Quote
My most treasured cricket picture is of a famous field set by Ian Chappell, that had all 10 men behind the batsman’s back as Dennis Lillee steamed in to bowl.

It’s the most arrogant challenge you can possibly throw at a batsman – there you go, off side free, leg side free, straight field free, make all the runs you want, if you can last.

Out of the box attitudes of that kind have historically been un-Indian; no contemporary captain I’ve seen lead has shown the remotest flair for the out of ordinary, the unexpected, the unusual (the late Indian charge against England at Nagpur is the only time in recent history we came close).

Perhaps because none of the Indian bowlers playing today or in the last 10 years is or was a Dennis Lillee. Also, having 10 men behind the field works well for a pace bowler, not when your key bowler is a spinner.

And if I remember correctly, this field was set by IC on a wicked, wicked, wicket --where there was A LOT of help for pacers.

With relation to not seeing any Indian captain employ anything other than copybook stuff, again all we need to do (off the top of my head) is rewind to India's tour of Australia circa 1986 and the ODI series. Against NZ, on a slippery seaming wicket, India were bowled out for 117 or therabouts and NZ at one stage were comfortably placed.

Enter Kapil Dev (captain) who bowled (mind you, this was an ODI) his second spell with 5 slips and 2 gullies. The NZ batting collapsed but they still scraped thorugh thanks to Jeff Crowe who was twice given not out by the umpire in the same Kapil over (definite caught behinds) and thanks to Azhar who dropped Hadlee in the slips (first ball  -- again off Kapil).

Kapil's final figures of 10-4-26-3 should ideally have been 10-4-22-5 (the Hadlee drop went for 4 runs).

Admittedly, kapil was not necessarily one of our brightest tacticians, but to say Indian captains have not shown innovativeness in the past 30 years is oversimplification.

Besides, a lot of captaincy is subtlety, not necessarily overt as in Ian Chappell or Kapil's case (not denying the merit of either of those moves though). While the overt moves are more noticeable, the subtle moves are often just as effective -- but more difficult to detect. Does not mean they do not exist.

To quote our coach after he took 100 catches (he was one of the great slip fielders) and was asked how come he didnt take too many single handed catches: "Why use one hand mate when two can do the job surer"

The analogy being -- why the need for overt tactics (not that they do not have their uses) when the subtle tactics can get the job done.

After all the task at hand is winning the match, not gaining assorted applauds from critics judging the tactics.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2006, 01:48:21 AM by kban1 »
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fineleg

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Good post kban, and nice recollection. Applause.
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kban1

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fineleg:

Thanks and congrats on your double!!
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pieterSAN

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What I inferrred from Prem's article was that the Rahul was not innovative. I don't think he was trying to say that Munaf should have bowled with everyone bhind the stumps. He was saying that Rahul could have been aggressive in more innovative ways.
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fineleg

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Kban,
Thanks.

Jiet,
yes, that is what PP is trying to say. But, I have to agree - we don't have a Dennis Lillee or a Murali/Warne. AK is our warrior.
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kban1

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jiet

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What I inferrred from Prem's article was that the Rahul was not innovative. I don't think he was trying to say that Munaf should have bowled with everyone bhind the stumps. He was saying that Rahul could have been aggressive in more innovative ways.

I got the point PP was trying to make. I was trying to point out what, IMO, was partly factual inaccuracy and partly usage of an ill suited analog to bring out his point.
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keep-it-cool

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i did not see the match .. and read this in a couple of other threads too ... was the umpiring as bad as is being portrayed by everyone? or was there reasonable doubt ... especially given that batsmen were batting way outside their crease, at least to the pacers?
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Blwe_torch

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Excellent, kban!....applause for you!
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kwatra

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i did not see the match .. and read this in a couple of other threads too ... was the umpiring as bad as is being portrayed by everyone? or was there reasonable doubt ... especially given that batsmen were batting way outside their crease, at least to the pacers?

I saw the match (most of it), and yes it was pretty bad! Almost invariably, Hawk Eye would show the bill hitting the stumps.. and not just brushing the off/leg or clipping the bails. One actually was hitting middle and leg, a good 3-4 inches below the bails... The only reason was that the batsmen were standing way outside the crease.. the infuriating part though is that they were offering no shot a lot of these times..... I was just wondering what happened to the "brave decisions" umpires used to make not so long ago... Remember Rauf's mate Dar giving Sachin out to Monty...
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Blwe_torch

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I don't think there is anything wrong with the traditional field-settings. Out of the way experimentations are possible only on extremely unfair pitches( for the batsmen), like dust-bowls or the Newzealand type seaming pitches...or...against decidedly weaker teams.
As if one Chappel was not enough, we have two for inspirations! :)

We can try a Steve Waugh or a Saurav Ganguly for a change just to break the monotony. But as Kban said, subtle moves are more effective generally. Great Captains were not exhibitionists, but subtle-strategy masters...........hint.........try keeping Steve Waugh waiting for you at toss! :D
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Libran

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http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com//scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1150318828

Reading the above, one gets the impression, atleast I did, that everything said in hindsight looks like it is a stroke of genius that has just missed the bus..All big talk....and note the last line...the breather...poor PP spent 4 full days on the field and deserves the long break... :-\

Really wonder how many actually visit his blog. But, will always be greatful...the current DG and its constituents are people I met out there :)
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Blwe_torch

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I have a 'hind-sighted, out of the box, stroke of genius' idea which would have surely made Prem proud. Sack GC in the middle of the series. :)
I am hopeful we can still salvage the last 2 Tests.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2006, 02:13:50 PM by Blwe_torch »
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dextrous

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I have a 'hind-sighted, out of the box, stroke of genius' idea which would have surely made Prem proud. Sack GC in the middle of the series. :)
I am hopeful we can still salvage the last 2 Tests.

AndWest Indies can go back to their losing streak that we've broken!
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Cover Point

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I have a 'hind-sighted, out of the box, stroke of genius' idea which would have surely made Prem proud. Sack GC in the middle of the series. :)
I am hopeful we can still salvage the last 2 Tests.

and out they come .... sniffing.. for a chance to catch the Indian team down. Even when Rain takes the game away from them ... it is Chappels fault. Cant even control the Weather!
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dextrous

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I have a 'hind-sighted, out of the box, stroke of genius' idea which would have surely made Prem proud. Sack GC in the middle of the series. :)
I am hopeful we can still salvage the last 2 Tests.

and out they come .... sniffing.. for a chance to catch the Indian team down. Even when Rain takes the game away from them ... it is Chappels fault. Cant even control the Weather!

Bark bark bark.
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bouncer

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I have a 'hind-sighted, out of the box, stroke of genius' idea which would have surely made Prem proud. Sack GC in the middle of the series. :)
I am hopeful we can still salvage the last 2 Tests.

AndWest Indies can go back to their losing streak that we've broken!

LOL
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bouncer

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I have a 'hind-sighted, out of the box, stroke of genius' idea which would have surely made Prem proud. Sack GC in the middle of the series. :)
I am hopeful we can still salvage the last 2 Tests.

and out they come .... sniffing.. for a chance to catch the Indian team down. Even when Rain takes the game away from them ... it is Chappels fault. Cant even control the Weather!

He did control the umpires though!
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Cover Point

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I have a 'hind-sighted, out of the box, stroke of genius' idea which would have surely made Prem proud. Sack GC in the middle of the series. :)
I am hopeful we can still salvage the last 2 Tests.

and out they come .... sniffing.. for a chance to catch the Indian team down. Even when Rain takes the game away from them ... it is Chappels fault. Cant even control the Weather!

Bark bark bark.

Please stop barking. It may hurt the feelings of some Dogs. Blwe would then have to send you a friendly nudge.
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toney

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I have a 'hind-sighted, out of the box, stroke of genius' idea which would have surely made Prem proud. Sack GC in the middle of the series. :)
I am hopeful we can still salvage the last 2 Tests.

and out they come .... sniffing.. for a chance to catch the Indian team down. Even when Rain takes the game away from them ... it is Chappels fault. Cant even control the Weather!

Bark bark bark.
Was that a moderator or a normal member of the DG? Just curious!!

First test, we drew after coming back beautifully. Of course, this is against the weak West Indians who chased 400+ against the Aussies with a similar line up.
The second game, we made them follow on and played perfect cricket. Had it not been for rain, we would have wrapped up the game on D5 morning. Of course, this piece of info is relevant only for people who opt to follow the game before drawing their conclusions.
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When intelligence matures and lodges securely in the mind it becomes wisdom. When wisdom is integrated with life and becomes action it becomes Bhakti. Knowledge when it becomes fully mature is Bhakti. To believe that Jnana and Bhakti, knowledge & devotion, are different from each other is ignorance.

jaat69

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I have a 'hind-sighted, out of the box, stroke of genius' idea which would have surely made Prem proud. Sack GC in the middle of the series. :)
I am hopeful we can still salvage the last 2 Tests.

and out they come .... sniffing.. for a chance to catch the Indian team down. Even when Rain takes the game away from them ... it is Chappels fault. Cant even control the Weather!

Bark bark bark.

Please stop barking. It may hurt the feelings of some Dogs. Blwe would then have to send you a friendly nudge.

e...dog kisko bola re? >:(
Complain karoon kya?
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Blwe_torch

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Oh...plzzz...don't start it all over again! ??? :-*
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achutank

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http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com//scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1150318828

Reading the above, one gets the impression, atleast I did, that everything said in hindsight looks like it is a stroke of genius that has just missed the bus..All big talk....and note the last line...the breather...poor PP spent 4 full days on the field and deserves the long break... :-\

Really wonder how many actually visit his blog. But, will always be greatful...the current DG and its constituents are people I met out there :)

well since he joined that new mag of his they are calling 'India Going Abroad'.

prem is a malu what do you expect. he loves his rumm and chochonat joose
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there is more than meets the i

achutank

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Oh...plzzz...don't start it all over again! ??? :-*

no please please do  ;D

comon CP and jaat wot you guys waiting for to start a fight , a provocation? cmon.
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there is more than meets the i

Blwe_torch

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Oh...plzzz...don't start it all over again! ??? :-*

no please please do  ;D

comon CP and jaat wot you guys waiting for to start a fight , a provocation? cmon.

Are you thinking of taking the science of Field-setting to the next level?
That is, from geometry to trigonometry? :)
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Cover Point

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e...dog kisko bola re? >:(
Complain karoon kya?

Kuch sunayi nahin diya. this ignore feature is great!
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toney

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http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com//scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1150318828

Reading the above, one gets the impression, atleast I did, that everything said in hindsight looks like it is a stroke of genius that has just missed the bus..All big talk....and note the last line...the breather...poor PP spent 4 full days on the field and deserves the long break... :-\

Really wonder how many actually visit his blog. But, will always be greatful...the current DG and its constituents are people I met out there :)

well since he joined that new mag of his they are calling 'India Going Abroad'.

prem is a malu what do you expect. he loves his rumm and chochonat joose
I would have loved to see the reaction if Mallu was replaced by Bong here.

BTW, mallus dont show bias towards rum (though the local drink is as close to the Caribean rums you get). We love whisky, brandy, wines etc....
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When intelligence matures and lodges securely in the mind it becomes wisdom. When wisdom is integrated with life and becomes action it becomes Bhakti. Knowledge when it becomes fully mature is Bhakti. To believe that Jnana and Bhakti, knowledge & devotion, are different from each other is ignorance.

Cover Point

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I would have loved to see the reaction if Mallu was replaced by Bong here.




Are u saying Prem is a bong?
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prfsr

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I would have loved to see the reaction if Mallu was replaced by Bong here.



Ok, toney, your wish will be granted  [god]

kban is a Bengali what do you expect. he loves his rosogollah and machher jhol.

Happy ? :)
-P
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toney

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prfsr, very happy now, thanks :)

CP, no, Prem is a Mallu. But I have seen people launch large scale protests (on the DG) for anything remotely seen as abusive to Bengal. Not that achu has done anything like that. Just that some people are looking for stuff to create trouble.
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When intelligence matures and lodges securely in the mind it becomes wisdom. When wisdom is integrated with life and becomes action it becomes Bhakti. Knowledge when it becomes fully mature is Bhakti. To believe that Jnana and Bhakti, knowledge & devotion, are different from each other is ignorance.

fineleg

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Actually this goes back to people having formed opinions abt other folks based on whether they supported SG or not, whether they criticized or accepted the overwhelming support SG received in Bengal and esp. Calcutta (yes, SG received support from other parts of country as well, but lots of support from his hometown as well, quite naturally and quite understandably). If someone had criticized that, then they were 'perceived' as having an agenda against Bengal.

And since SG was a hot topic, Bengal became a hot button issue too.
I hope a joke is a joke...No matter if prfsr/kban/blwe makes a joke or CP makes a joke abt rasgullah or bengal, it should be treated as just a joke, right? No?  (perhaps too much past history is involved to becoming angry rather than taking it easy!?)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2006, 06:45:25 PM by fineleg »
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Cover Point

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Rasgullahs are no joking matter! Please refrain!

Professor Ji, yeh Macherjhol kya hai? Macher as in Machli hopefully and not mosquito :) .
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kban1

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fineleg:

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Actually this goes back to people having formed opinions abt other folks based on whether they supported SG or not, whether they criticized or accepted the overwhelming support SG received in Bengal and esp. Calcutta (yes, SG received support from other parts of country as well, but lots of support from his hometown as well, quite naturally and quite understandably). If someone had criticized that, then they were 'perceived' as having an agenda against Bengal.

And since SG was a hot topic, Bengal became a hot button issue too.


good points but I think the outrage about usage of Bengal etc during the SG debate also had a couple of points many of us have either forgotten or gloss over.

During that time, a select few members of Sightscreen / old DG went on a rampage literally abusing Bengalis, the community, refereiing to Bengal as commie #$*&#$$, and adding in some very unsavory comments about the sex organs of Bengali women.

It was the most vulgar and obscene display of communalism / racism that could be imagined on a discussion forum and the surprising thing was the overwhelming lack of condemnation from the majority of the other members in response to that.

Once something like this happens with so much abusive vitriol directed against a particular group, future seemingly innocuous jokes take on a different color in light of past contextual references.

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I hope a joke is a joke...No matter if prfsr/kban/blwe makes a joke or CP makes a joke abt ragullah or bengal, it should be the same joke, right? No?


Also, as far as a joke being a joke irrespective of who makes it --thats not always true.

There is a thing called self deprecating humor. A person cracking a joke about himself / herself / own identity group can and often is perceived differently than a third person cracking the same joke.

The classic example (for those in the US) is the usage of the N word by African Americans and the usage of the same by another ethnic group. The former is self deprecating humor / mock  while the latter is an ethnic slur.

Like everything, there are nuances and humor also has nuances - because humor almost never exists in a vacuum, it is a function of part reality, part caricature, part society, part history et all.

Anyways, i shall get off my soap box for now. The only reasons I said this is because
1) I felt your explanation of what happened on this DG with regard to Bengalis, bengal, and support for SG does not quite capture the depths of insults bandied about, and

2) The universality of reactions to a joke irrespective of who the originitar is flawed from a perception viewpoint.

I have no issues with humor per se, its just that every issue has a context and it helps to have the whole issue in front if we are going to talk about it.
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dextrous

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prfsr, very happy now, thanks :)

CP, no, Prem is a Mallu. But I have seen people launch large scale protests (on the DG) for anything remotely seen as abusive to Bengal. Not that achu has done anything like that. Just that some people are looking for stuff to create trouble.

Selective memory recall? Forgot CP and his rasgollas so soon?

Anyway, nice to see you posting again.
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flute202020

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few questions

1. Is a rasgollas joke from CP equivalent to joke on bengal or bengalis? CP as far as I saw in his jokes was making fun of uptightness or extra sensitive nature of some on the DG. They are no way, even remotely related to bengal I think, only CP can confirm it though.

2. While there is a case to be made for self deprecating jokes, it is entirely different from other set of statements where a person(from bengal) chooses to bring up Bengal in a cricket discussion out of blue moon. To me it is equivalent to any person blaming Bengal for SG issue, both essentially stem from regional bias. I was even Mods bringing up Bengal totally out of context and without any provocation, basically to accuse me of bias against Bengal

3. It is all fine to complain about how DG did not condemn enough the attacks on bengal, but I have had the same complaint about how some people conveniently ignore all attacks on the Indian team and vows of not supporting the team etc. All extra analysis is to be applied only when we disagree? Where is the indignation when similar racist attacks are carried out on GC or More or anyone who is not supporting SG? where is the condemnation of the Eden garden crowd from SG fans ? All I saw was rationalization like colonial hangover or citing mumbai crowd to say how other venues too are bad etc.


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toney

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dex, I dont want to dig up all the old stuff again. But sa far as I know, CP wasnt really abusive to Bengal/Bengalis. And my post wasnt with reference to what CP did or didnt. It is just that at one point of time, a lot of people on this DG wanted to keep Bengal and Bengalis strictly off limits to the rest while, in the name of humour/sarcasm/positive criticism (believe it or not), they could go on a rampage against anybody else.
And about posting: I am planning to come back in full strength :). There is no way I couuld post from work again though. The project involves long time away from my laptop.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2006, 07:34:31 PM by toney »
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When intelligence matures and lodges securely in the mind it becomes wisdom. When wisdom is integrated with life and becomes action it becomes Bhakti. Knowledge when it becomes fully mature is Bhakti. To believe that Jnana and Bhakti, knowledge & devotion, are different from each other is ignorance.

fineleg

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Kban (Sorry I addressed this to dex earlier, that was a typo - ofcourse - this post is for everyone in general)
During Prem sightscreen days, I was not so active in the comments section - primarily I used to read Prem's posting and sometimes ruchir/worma's posting on the main page. Thats why I was not so acquainted with u folks at that time, and then I got more active in the Purdue-DG.

Infact, I suddenly saw Prem posted that he decided to bring down sightscreen (and later he said he will disable comments). I did not know what went on in the comment section for Prem to totally shut it off, but I guess some of what u said did happen - that is very unfortunate. Yes, if indeed people who said that make jokes, that cannot be taken in an easy manner.

However my main point is below:
1. If people who have made such vulgar statements, crack jokes lightly, it cannot be taken lightly - Agreed.
2. But, if rest of the folks make light jokes then it should be taken as light jokes (just becos they dont want SG in the team, that should not give reason to take jokes in an angry fashion).

UNLESS the person has past behavior that establishes him/her to be anti-Bengal, just not wanting SG in the team does not mean anti-Bengal. Thats the crux of my point. (not wanting SG may just be  bcos one thinks SG cannot score big runs currently, and thats a different debate altogether).

Rasgullah's etc are just teasing IMO...and we can tolerate some amt of teasing (unless again if past history has established something different).

In my case, I take most teasing in a sportive manner - if I started believing DD and Kix, then I must think I am really dumb! LOL  :). But, I have my achievements over different phases of my life and career and those achievements have built self-belief in me...I dont take this teasing seriously, coz I know my abilities and achievements. But, I find people sometimes take teasing in a very personal manner.

(Having said that I purposely said I take "most" teasing in a sportive manner - there are some that I cannot and it is based on past history - I agree...I understand u can't help that...When someone has vulgarly abused u earlier on, it is very difficult to take any "light jokes" in the future).
« Last Edit: June 16, 2006, 07:36:20 PM by fineleg »
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toney

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It was the most vulgar and obscene display of communalism / racism that could be imagined on a discussion forum and the surprising thing was the overwhelming lack of condemnation from the majority of the other members in response to that.
Pretty far fetched allegations. About the lack of condemnation: so what? I didnt understand your point, kban. Does a passive audience mean that any of us actually agreed with all those hooligans? Does each one of us actually protest every injustice being committed in the world? What about the lack of condemnation for the opposite? If you really dont remember, there was a period of absolute mayhem here by a select few because of perceived injustice against Bengal on Prem's sightscreen. I know at least a couple of people who were really disgusted by that and stopped visiting the DG. Sadly, that was a loss for the rest of us simply because we lose some good chances for different views.

I am with the Dutch and the Danish on this. As long as something is not meant to solely insult a person, anything goes. I know there is a thin line between good humour and such insults. But even if such a line is breached, the insulted person has no right to respond by launching a counter war of sorts. There are the so called right channels for everything.
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When intelligence matures and lodges securely in the mind it becomes wisdom. When wisdom is integrated with life and becomes action it becomes Bhakti. Knowledge when it becomes fully mature is Bhakti. To believe that Jnana and Bhakti, knowledge & devotion, are different from each other is ignorance.

fineleg

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few questions

1. Is a rasgollas joke from CP equivalent to joke on bengal or bengalis? CP as far as I saw in his jokes was making fun of uptightness or extra sensitive nature of some on the DG. They are no way, even remotely related to bengal I think, only CP can confirm it though.

2. While there is a case to be made for self deprecating jokes, it is entirely different from other set of statements where a person(from bengal) chooses to bring up Bengal in a cricket discussion out of blue moon. To me it is equivalent to any person blaming Bengal for SG issue, both essentially stem from regional bias. I was even Mods bringing up Bengal totally out of context and without any provocation, basically to accuse me of bias against Bengal

3. It is all fine to complain about how DG did not condemn enough the attacks on bengal, but I have had the same complaint about how some people conveniently ignore all attacks on the Indian team and vows of not supporting the team etc. All extra analysis is to be applied only when we disagree? Where is the indignation when similar racist attacks are carried out on GC or More or anyone who is not supporting SG? where is the condemnation of the Eden garden crowd from SG fans ? All I saw was rationalization like colonial hangover or citing mumbai crowd to say how other venues too are bad etc.




Flute - good points. I do agree that regarding "condemnation of issues"...not everyone jumps in and condemns every issue. If we have to be fair, we have to be fair to all.....When there are attacks on GC, there are quite a few who sit with their hands folded and watch...then similar can be expected when allegations fall on SG as well.
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kban1

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1. Is a rasgollas joke from CP equivalent to joke on bengal or bengalis? CP as far as I saw in his jokes was making fun of uptightness or extra sensitive nature of some on the DG. They are no way, even remotely related to bengal I think, only CP can confirm it though.

Go back to the origin of the jokes about rasgullahs and see the context they were used in initially along with frequent other references related to bengal. Do not judge the issue based on the rasgullah jokes now being cracked because the tone, tenor, and context are all different.

Speaking of being ultra sensitive, you are in the US aern't you. Why don't you try it  --walk up to an ethnic group and crack a few smart ones at their culinary habits and see if it flies or whether you get accused of being insensitive and probably far worse.

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2. While there is a case to be made for self deprecating jokes, it is entirely different from other set of statements where a person(from bengal) chooses to bring up Bengal in a cricket discussion out of blue moon. To me it is equivalent to any person blaming Bengal for SG issue, both essentially stem from regional bias. I was even Mods bringing up Bengal totally out of context and without any provocation, basically to accuse me of bias against Bengal

Thats the point, nothing was brought out of the blue. Every comment which brought Bengal into the equation was not offensive either. But some were as was the streretyping and implied parochialism, all in the name of actually condemning parochialism.


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3. It is all fine to complain about how DG did not condemn enough the attacks on bengal, but I have had the same complaint about how some people conveniently ignore all attacks on the Indian team and vows of not supporting the team etc. All extra analysis is to be applied only when we disagree? Where is the indignation when similar racist attacks are carried out on GC or More or anyone who is not supporting SG? where is the condemnation of the Eden garden crowd from SG fans ? All I saw was rationalization like colonial hangover or citing mumbai crowd to say how other venues too are bad etc.

I cannot recall attacks on the Indian team unless your definition is criticism of the Indian team in which case I have nothing to say about your equivalence between communalistic attacks and criticism of the Indian team.

Your version of the racist attacks I have always failed to comprehend. If someone says that x number of Indians may be giving a long rope to GC because he is a foreigner or a gora, then you term that as a racist attack. Why is it racist --it is one person's observation of behavior patterns of a portion of the Indian population when they interact with westerners. Of course you do not subscribe to that either as evidenced by your numerous posts about your view of colonial hangover (does not exist as per you). Fine, why can it not be a difference of opinion between how you view it or how the other person views it -- I for the world of me fail to see how it qualifies as racism.

Funny you should bring up the Eden Garden crowd. Why was that particular crowd behavior bad as opposed to say the Bangalore crowd or the Mumbai crowd ? I did not hear any condemnations then -- see its all SG centric.

When SRT is booed, muted reaction / outrage. When SG is booed, no outrage but if GC and RD are booed because SG is not in the team, the demand for condemnation from rooftops is defeaning.

And no one cited Mumbai to exonerate Eden. Mumbai happened later (refreshing the timeline for you). People cited Mumbai to point out the hypocrisy in castigating Eden while keeping mum about Mumbai. There is a difference between rationalization and pointing out double standards.

For the record, I did not support the Eden crowd (whichever sections did it, for I know for a fact the entire crowd was not involved).

But taking a contrarian position -- what obligates a crowd to only shower praise on the players or the team ? What prevents them from criticizing players not playing well or doing what they didn't approve. Isn't that the nature of sports ? Isn't that the argument used on this DG --we are objective, we supported SG when he was good, now he is not, so he does not belong. So whats sauce for the goose (DG fans) is not sauce for the *er (fans in the stands in Eden, Bangalore, or Mumabi) ?

And if you are so bothered about outrage, where was the outrage when the national coach flipped off a crowd (please do not say the crowd deserved it for booing the team because this happened on the day before the match after a practice session) ? Ah I see, its acceptable  --the finger flipping because some on this DG are used to doing it all the time, never mind the fact that it is neither acceptable in our culture or society nor in Western society where the gesture originated (polite society that is).
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