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justforkix

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #80 on: May 01, 2006, 01:22:37 AM »

:) Well, one thing hasn't changed in my 30 years of watching cricket. The attitude of Indian Fans. I hope our team doesnt think anywhere near on those lines. As you said, anything can happen in ODIs.
Indian teams over the years failed fans like me, I agree.

Nobody is losing hope here. But the fact is India has to play nearly a flawless game and fire almost in all cylinders to beat Australia. But Australia need not to beat India. That is the difference we are trying to point out here.

All along, you have compared only the batters. What about the bowlers - AA/RPS/MP, SS, RP, HS vs. McGrath, Dizzy, Lee, Warnie/Hogg  ;D ;D
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ramshorns

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #81 on: May 01, 2006, 01:47:10 AM »


All along, you have compared only the batters. What about the bowlers - AA/RPS/MP, SS, RP, HS vs. McGrath, Dizzy, Lee, Warnie/Hogg  ;D ;D
Because there is no comparision.  Keeping HS aside and AA it is not a knock on the young brigade, but it is a injustice comparing.
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22 Yards

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #82 on: May 01, 2006, 01:49:58 AM »

justforkix,
I am optimistic in our bowling too :):)
Warne...less said the better
McGrath.....God only knows if he is gonna play the WCup.
Lee and Gillespie...Well we handled them before....why not again....
May be we have seen only HALF the potential of Sreesanth and Munaf, hopefully :)
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22 Yards

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #83 on: May 01, 2006, 01:53:36 AM »

Sorry for being too optimistic ;)
But I just want to see a medal around Sachin's neck (if they ever give one)
I have a funny idea which we can do on this forum, let me know if you are interested (Having said that, last time I did something like that, India had a tremendous heartback experience at '87 Cup)
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justforkix

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #84 on: May 01, 2006, 02:40:11 AM »

22 yeards :

This is what I feel (a bit of cut-paste from my earlier post - reply #22) :

How will our bowlers IP, AA, SS, MP, RPS, HS, RP respond to some brutal onslaughts by Hayden, Gilly, Punter, Hussey, Symo.

Our bowlers will simply succumb. Because even very good and experienced bowlers have not handled these psychos' mad hitting !!!! I'm not saying that our bowlers are bad, but they just lack the experience as to what to do, when these mad psychos start tonking the ball. It is scary to even think of what Punter, Hussey, Symo and Gilly can do to our bowlers :(. Hopefully they can prove me wrong :)

Anywayz, the ICC Champions Trophy game vs. Aus will be a good indicator.....
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indcricfan

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #85 on: May 01, 2006, 03:21:20 AM »

Batting-- Australia has 4 batsmen in Top 10, India 3 (who is Out Sachin and Sehwag not in 10). I am sure if Sachin is fit and raring he is any day top 10 so we are even.

Bowling-- Aus have 3 in Top 10 and India have 2 in Top 10. All rounders 1 each

This kind of shows we are very near being # 2. Last time we had this going so well was in 1999

But our supporting cast was bad. If Top order fails we were to lose, I think that is where we are better today I feel.

Is AUS #1 side today yes, Can india be in future-- Maybe

Remember the same great australian bowling let SA score 338 chasing ;D

Earlier if anyone asked me to bet between Aus Ind ODI I would say 70-30 and also saying Sachin or Ganguly needs to fire, but now it is probably 55 45 with no one particular player needing to fire.

Earlier if Sachin/SG/VS got out we could shut down TV and say match is done with and our chances would go from 70 30 to 90-10
Now probably it stays at 55-45 maybe 60-40 thats the key difference in the team. If we really had this kind of support cast and attitude when Sachin/SG were at the Top we would have probably won 1999. Just look at matches we lost in 1999 after  all good starts no support cast

Once Again I do say we are not best today, but we can give run for australias money on most of days.


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22 Yards

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #86 on: May 01, 2006, 03:42:35 AM »

You are an optimistic indcricfan :) Applaud your post.
justforkix has a point too. But lets hope we have seen only half the potential of Munaf and Sreesanth.
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fineleg

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #87 on: May 01, 2006, 04:22:21 AM »

22Y, The difference in fielding is telling when we look past Yuvi and Raina. We have about half dozen good fielders but the rest of them just don't measure up to Aussie standards. I like Raina's fielding too and I hope that he works hard on his batting so that he can evolve into the World Class batsman. Perhaps it is a little early to tell whether he is as good as Clarke? We'll see.

I am being realistic rather than pessimistic about India's chances. We can never overestimate the Aussies. It is best to realize that we have to very well prepared if we want to be serious about beating them in the WC. Fineleg would tell you - I am not pessimistic by nature. ;D ;D


Yes, ur only being realistic  - I agree  :D
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Blwe_torch

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #88 on: May 01, 2006, 05:29:23 AM »

I feel Dizzy is known more for his batting than his bowling nowadays!
Going by Australia's plight against Bangladesh recently, I feel there is no point hyping up Australia's chances.
Circumspection is desirable, but in a battle don't over-estimate your opponents!
Probably, they see us, as we tend to see them. They must be mighty worried abt Sehwag, Dhoni, Yuvraj and Raina!
Good for us! :)
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Blwe_torch

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #89 on: May 01, 2006, 05:37:26 AM »


I agree with you Rams!
Persisting with ordinary players is a recipe for fool-hardiness.
GC must remember that Team India is not up for his Grand gamble!
Blwe:Also I have no problems with GC/RD's mantra of looking for the future.  I am all for it.  What is little perplexing is not giving these proven performers a chance.  As an example when RD was rested they called in VRV as a replacement.  I mean that did not make any sense whatsoever.  I mean for a big event like a WC a SG or a VVS who has done very well against great teams can be handy.  Sure you can be dismissive as well.  You can do that about RD, if you choose so.  But IMO youth can be tried at the same time and play VVS or a SG as well given the number of games we have.  Then among KAIF/VENU/VVS/SG/RU etc, pick the best based on these games to the WC.  That is not all that bad an idea.

I agree, and let me add that every other captain/coach worth his salt have 'looked towards the future'. No problem there. This ' looking towards the future ' got highlighted from time to time on an  'issue-based' manner.
Whenever a proven super-star was dropped in the history, it was done to look towards the future.
Only, this time the rhetorics ( a lot of blah blah) were there in place too!
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 05:40:10 AM by Blwe_torch »
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Prem Chopra

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #90 on: May 01, 2006, 09:47:04 AM »

22 Yards ,

Sorry going off topic, But your writing style resembles that of Prem Panicker.
Even I am on a different name here because of my contract with HT, canít reveal my name. This is my first post .Cricket Voice has all the ingredients to become the next Cricinfo or even better in near future. I wonít be surprised if few more known writers soon be on an alias here. 
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worma

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #91 on: May 01, 2006, 09:48:06 AM »

kix: the indcricfan post still looks like about Indian batting vs Aussie batting to me. And your reply was to that....that Aussies dont just have average contributors.

Atleast thats how I saw it...

That is true. But I still believe that even if compare Aus and Ind batter by batter, Aus have much more match winners with vast experience who have proved it on the big stage and who can adapt to any situation than India.

Symonds, Hussey, Punter, Clarke, Hayden can slog or accumulate. Gilly can slog. Martyn can accumulate. I agree we are moving in that direction. But don't have near that amound of experience that Aus have.
What I feel is that the current Indian lineup, esp if you include Sachin (and assume he returns even as decent as he did after the elbow injury), is playing as good as the Aussies. Ofcourse we haven't played them recently...and ofcourse we haven't played outside the subcontinent (since this good form of our team)..but then we can only talk of what we have seen. If we suck badly outside, I will change my opinion.

So..coming back to comparison.....well the Aussies have not been in too great form either....just check out Gilly's average in last 15-20 games (minus that against BD) and you'll find it similar to Sachin's. Yuvraj and Dhoni are comparable, or better than Symonds and Hussey.

Raina is comparable with Clarke (forget his potential etc etc....just look at what he has done in ODIs in recent times...esp late in middle order...and compare that with Raina. Remember matches are not won my potential....we look at ground reality).

Rahul plus Pathan (up the order) make up for Ponting and Martyn (Ponting is more explosive than Rahul....yet less consistent. Martyn has been ordinary of late. Again, forget skillset an potential)

Yes we have a second opener problem (if you want to call it that, with Sehwag) and Aussies have Katich...although he would rarely win them a match, even on his good day.

As to the point about accumulating and collecting.....for us Raina, Pathan, Dhoni, Yuvraj have shown enough samples of both styles in recent times....so what are we complaining about?

Once again, a closing reminder....I am not comparing the *potential* of the two lineups...those are better judged in test matches. I am comparing their ODI performances, contributions in the current form.
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Blwe_torch

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #92 on: May 01, 2006, 10:42:26 AM »

22 Yards ,

Sorry going off topic, But your writing style resembles that of Prem Panicker.
Even I am on a different name here because of my contract with HT, canít reveal my name. This is my first post .Cricket Voice has all the ingredients to become the next Cricinfo or even better in near future. I wonít be surprised if few more known writers soon be on an alias here. 


Welcome Mr.Prem!
Thanks for your encouraging words!
We look forward to many interactions with you in the coming future.
I feel, I can guess. :)
But I'd rather let you remain anonymous! :)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 10:59:15 AM by Blwe_torch »
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pieterSAN

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #93 on: May 01, 2006, 10:42:57 AM »

Worma, good work.

However, jfk's point about the relative strength of the bowling attacks faced makes a difference. The Indians have to play Aussie bowling while the Aussies have to face Indian bowling. Fact is even after a super run, we are clutching at straws to show that this team can match the Aussies. To me that is a warning sign, but let's hope for the best.
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worma

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #94 on: May 01, 2006, 10:53:57 AM »

Worma, good work.

However, jfk's point about the relative strength of the bowling attacks faced makes a difference. The Indians have to play Aussie bowling while the Aussies have to face Indian bowling. Fact is even after a super run, we are clutching at straws to show that this team can match the Aussies. To me that is a warning sign, but let's hope for the best.
Ok...let me stick the neck out a bit further then....I think the Aussie ODI bowling today is no way superior to Indian...so even on that count, I would say we compare well with their batting lineup. A faceoff in October (we have a triangular against Aus, Pak in Abu Dhabi) would give a good indication.

Ofcourse, McGrath and Warne returning to their ODI attack would change things quite a lot...but thats conjecture as of now..
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rajesh

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #95 on: May 01, 2006, 12:05:43 PM »

Aussie ODI bowling attack is very very poor ...
clarke(guy is dangerous if pitch is spacy or double paced) and bracken(good swing bowler like our pathan) are good bowlers,not threatening.
Usually Aus go with just 4 bowlers and hogg is one of them. if we cannot throw hogg and symonds out of the ground ,may be our batting is not explosive . that's it.If mcgrath does not come for world cup, most of the teams will pile huge scores against Australia.
It is just the Aussie batting that could throw us out. People will point to AUssies pathetic battig performabnce in SA... but mind u that is against a gud bowling attack.Our bowling  cannnot come near that


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rajesh

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #96 on: May 01, 2006, 12:12:43 PM »

Batting
 There is a high probability that current Indian team might look like a INdia A team when we start loosing ... or when we go to SA on tehir quick pitches. Currently we are too gud on our pitches and taht is great. If we could win with such a peformance, then if we improve in our top order, we might be a force to reckon with

I don't see India competing against Australia with the likes of uthappa or kaif.
Believe me uthappa will be sorted out by fast bowlers as he has only one way of playing  (Front foot). Not a candidate as a opener.
Kaif - less said teh better. A person who in his prime form can atbest be a support cast against lowly ranked teams ... u cannot select a person just for his fielding .. whatever be his team spirit and athletiism.

SRT and VS   = Gilly and Katich
YS,RD,Dhoni   = ponting,martyn and symonds (orders not withstanding)
IP and raina   = Hussey
???               = Clarke
RP                =  Lee

Atleast we are 1 batsman short

 
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22 Yards

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #97 on: May 01, 2006, 01:49:28 PM »

Prem Chopra,
Thank You :)
Yes, I agree. Cricket Voice has the potential to become one of the top cricket sites.
Coming to the topic,
Worma,
Some very good points there. Let me add this too, They NEED Glenn more than, lets say, we NEED Sachin . He is the kind of bowler who can control explosive batsmen like Virender and Graeme Smith. Having said that, its not easy for Glenn to come and bowl those 'don't touch me' deliveries.
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ramshorns

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #98 on: May 01, 2006, 03:25:28 PM »

Rahul plus Pathan (up the order) make up for Ponting and Martyn (Ponting is more explosive than Rahul....yet less consistent. Martyn has been ordinary of late. Again, forget skillset an potential)

I am in no way in agreement with that.  All things considered I will take Pointing over Rahul anyday in a ODI.  And Pathan to Martyn is a no comaprision. Let us atleast wait till how Pathan as a batsman does in WI and SA.  Even then I do not know how we can compare the two.
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fineleg

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #99 on: May 01, 2006, 03:57:40 PM »

Rahul plus Pathan (up the order) make up for Ponting and Martyn (Ponting is more explosive than Rahul....yet less consistent. Martyn has been ordinary of late. Again, forget skillset an potential)

I am in no way in agreement with that.  All things considered I will take Pointing over Rahul anyday in a ODI.  And Pathan to Martyn is a no comaprision. Let us atleast wait till how Pathan as a batsman does in WI and SA.  Even then I do not know how we can compare the two.

Worma,
I am very surprised u have said this. Got to agree with Rams - Ponting over RD anyday in ODI, and IP is still establishing himself as batsman - Damien Martyn and IP cannot even begin to compare.
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pieterSAN

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #100 on: May 01, 2006, 04:10:44 PM »

Rahul plus Pathan (up the order) make up for Ponting and Martyn (Ponting is more explosive than Rahul....yet less consistent. Martyn has been ordinary of late. Again, forget skillset an potential)

I am in no way in agreement with that.  All things considered I will take Pointing over Rahul anyday in a ODI.  And Pathan to Martyn is a no comaprision. Let us atleast wait till how Pathan as a batsman does in WI and SA.  Even then I do not know how we can compare the two.

Worma,
I am very surprised u have said this. Got to agree with Rams - Ponting over RD anyday in ODI, and IP is still establishing himself as batsman - Damien Martyn and IP cannot even begin to compare.

Worma is going by current form in that analysis. Pathan has done better in than Martyn recently.

But we really are clutching at straws to make the argument.  As for comparing the bowling, it makes no sense to do so since most of the players have barely played 20 games. Sreesanth, Munaf have just gotten starts. An attack of Lee, Clark, Bracken, Hogg and Symonds is always going to trump ours.

Worma, please don't say that the fielding of late has been at least as good as Aussie fielding because it would hurt your credibility.  :D
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gouravk

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #101 on: May 01, 2006, 04:28:47 PM »

But there need not be a one to one match. It is the overall combination that matters.
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fineleg

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #102 on: May 01, 2006, 04:32:26 PM »

But there need not be a one to one match. It is the overall combination that matters.

Yes, overall contributions is a main area where Aussies have always excelled.
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worma

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #103 on: May 01, 2006, 05:37:49 PM »

Rahul plus Pathan (up the order) make up for Ponting and Martyn (Ponting is more explosive than Rahul....yet less consistent. Martyn has been ordinary of late. Again, forget skillset an potential)

I am in no way in agreement with that.  All things considered I will take Pointing over Rahul anyday in a ODI.  And Pathan to Martyn is a no comaprision. Let us atleast wait till how Pathan as a batsman does in WI and SA.  Even then I do not know how we can compare the two.

Worma,
I am very surprised u have said this. Got to agree with Rams - Ponting over RD anyday in ODI, and IP is still establishing himself as batsman - Damien Martyn and IP cannot even begin to compare.
fineleg (and rams also): you have fallen into the trap/premise that I repeated 3 times I was trying to avoid.

1) I am not comparing these players on their overall career-vise *quality* or *potential* etc etc. Merely comparing their performance, as the reality on ground, in past one season or so

2) I did not compare Ponting with Rahul....I compared Rahul + Pathan (when playing up the order) with Ponting + Martyn. There is a difference in the two comparisons, hope you see that?

3) Btw...and this is not the part of my original argument, just took it from yours just now...Check out the average *and*  impact on the game that Pathan playing up the order has had in the past one season. Now compare that with Martyn in the same period. Why is Martyn better, can you tell me?

Once again...please try to keep the *potential* and *career history* etc kind of things out of this, if you can.
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worma

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #104 on: May 01, 2006, 05:39:46 PM »

Rahul plus Pathan (up the order) make up for Ponting and Martyn (Ponting is more explosive than Rahul....yet less consistent. Martyn has been ordinary of late. Again, forget skillset an potential)

I am in no way in agreement with that.  All things considered I will take Pointing over Rahul anyday in a ODI.  And Pathan to Martyn is a no comaprision. Let us atleast wait till how Pathan as a batsman does in WI and SA.  Even then I do not know how we can compare the two.

Worma,
I am very surprised u have said this. Got to agree with Rams - Ponting over RD anyday in ODI, and IP is still establishing himself as batsman - Damien Martyn and IP cannot even begin to compare.

Worma is going by current form in that analysis. Pathan has done better in than Martyn recently.

But we really are clutching at straws to make the argument.  As for comparing the bowling, it makes no sense to do so since most of the players have barely played 20 games. Sreesanth, Munaf have just gotten starts. An attack of Lee, Clark, Bracken, Hogg and Symonds is always going to trump ours.

Worma, please don't say that the fielding of late has been at least as good as Aussie fielding because it would hurt your credibility.  :D
Yeah won't say the same for fielding...although we can get there soon :-)

No...I dont think Lee, Clark, Bracken, Hogg, Symonds would trump Pathan, Bhajji, Powar, AA, Santh....not going by current ODI performances. Why do you?
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worma

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #105 on: May 01, 2006, 05:41:33 PM »

Prem Chopra,
Thank You :)
Yes, I agree. Cricket Voice has the potential to become one of the top cricket sites.
Coming to the topic,
Worma,
Some very good points there. Let me add this too, They NEED Glenn more than, lets say, we NEED Sachin . He is the kind of bowler who can control explosive batsmen like Virender and Graeme Smith. Having said that, its not easy for Glenn to come and bowl those 'don't touch me' deliveries.
Yeah...its very difficult for him to do it immediately into his comeback....but McG is special...he's done it in the past. I would, if forced to, bet on him doing it..rather than against.
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worma

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #106 on: May 01, 2006, 05:52:18 PM »

But there need not be a one to one match. It is the overall combination that matters.

Yes, overall contributions is a main area where Aussies have always excelled.
Which is why this argument on current form....they *look* equal to us in recent times. Ofcourse all those riders, that I listed earlier, do apply.
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Cover Point

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #107 on: May 01, 2006, 05:52:59 PM »

I am still somewhat in my haitus mode so missed some good discussions here. Is it too late to attack Ramji for being "himself" ? :)

Anyway to the point of Aus lineup.

I can not imagine us considering our batting lineup (away from India) at the same level as Aus.

Sachin has not shown any level of ability to be close to his best ... and in ODI's him and Sehwag are the ONLy indians who could match the aussies.

Symonds .. who is being so under valued here ..is a butcher!!! When on fire ... he can cream anyone. No Indian ...none ...Dhoni Yuvi included ..can match his savagery .... We dont have players who can play THOSE kinds of strokes. Few can .... Maybe Pieterson.... and thats it!

I hate ponting. But have to grudgingly admit that Today's ponting is the best player in the world. Hussey's stats speak for themselves.

And what speaks of the Australian dominance is that for the last so long we have been hearing about decline of Gilchrist etc etc .. still ranked #1 in the world!!! just shows that that particular lineup is way ahead of anything else we have seen.

India has a good team but we are not to Aussie level yet. On a good day we can beat them ..yes. But Sahir would still give the favorites tag to the Aussies.

--CP

PS: And yes. Need to clear my throat! uhhhhh Ganguly Sucks!
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ramshorns

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #108 on: May 01, 2006, 05:55:51 PM »

Rahul plus Pathan (up the order) make up for Ponting and Martyn (Ponting is more explosive than Rahul....yet less consistent. Martyn has been ordinary of late. Again, forget skillset an potential)

I am in no way in agreement with that.  All things considered I will take Pointing over Rahul anyday in a ODI.  And Pathan to Martyn is a no comaprision. Let us atleast wait till how Pathan as a batsman does in WI and SA.  Even then I do not know how we can compare the two.

Worma,
I am very surprised u have said this. Got to agree with Rams - Ponting over RD anyday in ODI, and IP is still establishing himself as batsman - Damien Martyn and IP cannot even begin to compare.
fineleg (and rams also): you have fallen into the trap/premise that I repeated 3 times I was trying to avoid.

1) I am not comparing these players on their overall career-vise *quality* or *potential* etc etc. Merely comparing their performance, as the reality on ground, in past one season or so

2) I did not compare Ponting with Rahul....I compared Rahul + Pathan (when playing up the order) with Ponting + Martyn. There is a difference in the two comparisons, hope you see that?

3) Btw...and this is not the part of my original argument, just took it from yours just now...Check out the average *and*  impact on the game that Pathan playing up the order has had in the past one season. Now compare that with Martyn in the same period. Why is Martyn better, can you tell me?

Once again...please try to keep the *potential* and *career history* etc kind of things out of this, if you can.
OK Worma I got it.  In that case we got to agree to disagree on that one and move on.  Because Pathan is an unproven commodity out of the sub-continent.  To me averages mean only so much.   We need to also consider the opponents, conditions etc.  Not to say Pathan will not succeed but we do not know that yet.  May be Martyn is not consistent today but who is to say he won't 2 months from now or at the time of the WC.  To put it I will take Ponting + Martyn over Rahul + Pathan any day of the week and feel good about my chances if I were a betting man.
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justforkix

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #109 on: May 01, 2006, 06:06:16 PM »

No...I dont think Lee, Clark, Bracken, Hogg, Symonds would trump Pathan, Bhajji, Powar, AA, Santh....not going by current ODI performances. Why do you?

Current ODI performances of batters/bowlers of both teams may be a bit misleading - diff conditions, opponents etc., although I can't think of a better indicator for current form :).

Yes. I think (Gilly, Ponting, Hussey, Clarke, Symonds, Martyn, Katich vs. IP, HS, RP, AA, SS) will trump over (SRT, VS, RD, YS, SR, MSD, IP vs. Lee, Bracken, Clark, Hogg, Symo).

You are really underestimating the savagery (if there is such a word :)) of Symo, Hussey, Punter and Gilly over average/inexperienced bowlers :)

anywayz, as both of us have said, Champions trophy will be a good indicator as to how we measure up against Austraia.
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worma

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #110 on: May 01, 2006, 06:06:45 PM »

Rahul plus Pathan (up the order) make up for Ponting and Martyn (Ponting is more explosive than Rahul....yet less consistent. Martyn has been ordinary of late. Again, forget skillset an potential)

I am in no way in agreement with that.  All things considered I will take Pointing over Rahul anyday in a ODI.  And Pathan to Martyn is a no comaprision. Let us atleast wait till how Pathan as a batsman does in WI and SA.  Even then I do not know how we can compare the two.
Worma,
I am very surprised u have said this. Got to agree with Rams - Ponting over RD anyday in ODI, and IP is still establishing himself as batsman - Damien Martyn and IP cannot even begin to compare.
fineleg (and rams also): you have fallen into the trap/premise that I repeated 3 times I was trying to avoid.

1) I am not comparing these players on their overall career-vise *quality* or *potential* etc etc. Merely comparing their performance, as the reality on ground, in past one season or so

2) I did not compare Ponting with Rahul....I compared Rahul + Pathan (when playing up the order) with Ponting + Martyn. There is a difference in the two comparisons, hope you see that?

3) Btw...and this is not the part of my original argument, just took it from yours just now...Check out the average *and*  impact on the game that Pathan playing up the order has had in the past one season. Now compare that with Martyn in the same period. Why is Martyn better, can you tell me?

Once again...please try to keep the *potential* and *career history* etc kind of things out of this, if you can.
OK Worma I got it.  In that case we got to agree to disagree on that one and move on.  Because Pathan is an unproven commodity out of the sub-continent.  To me averages mean only so much.   We need to also consider the opponents, conditions etc.  Not to say Pathan will not succeed but we do not know that yet.  May be Martyn is not consistent today but who is to say he won't 2 months from now or at the time of the WC.  To put it I will take Ponting + Martyn over Rahul + Pathan any day of the week and feel good about my chances if I were a betting man.
rams...one of my original riders was that 'I agree that the improved Indian lot has not been out of subcontinent...therefore we hold out judgement on that'...but we can speak only of what we have at hand. Or not speak at all...right?

Btw...if some of our players havent proven outside subcontinent...then neither have some of the Aussies in these conditions.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 06:17:39 PM by worma »
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worma

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #111 on: May 01, 2006, 06:09:17 PM »

No...I dont think Lee, Clark, Bracken, Hogg, Symonds would trump Pathan, Bhajji, Powar, AA, Santh....not going by current ODI performances. Why do you?

Current ODI performances of batters/bowlers of both teams may be a bit misleading - diff conditions, opponents etc., although I can't think of a better indicator for current form :).

Yes. I think (Gilly, Ponting, Hussey, Clarke, Symonds, Martyn, Katich vs. IP, HS, RP, AA, SS) will trump over (SRT, VS, RD, YS, SR, MSD, IP vs. Lee, Bracken, Clark, Hogg, Symo).

You are really underestimating the savagery (if there is such a word :)) of Symo, Hussey, Punter and Gilly over average/inexperienced bowlers :)

anywayz, as both of us have said, Champions trophy will be a good indicator as to how we measure up against Austraia.
Better indicator would be that triseries against Pak and Aus in Abu Dhabi...its before CT. And btw, in recent times, I've often said this that ODI coditions around the world are not that different. You know, Aussies have played as much, if not actually more, 300+ kind of ODIs than us in this season.
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worma

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #112 on: May 01, 2006, 06:14:15 PM »

coverpoint and jfk: no I am not underestimating the savagery of Hussye and Symonds...they are great ODI players today....but so are Yuvraj and Dhoni. We played against all top ranking teams this season, except Aus, and both did well. I don't really understand what gives you the impression that on current form our duo is any less? Ofcourse, once again, I would myself add that they have to play out of home conditions (well....read my previous post....ODI is getting same kind of conditions all around, these days...but anyway that aside..) and same way Hussey also needs to prove himself in the sluggish or spin or grind kind of ODI conditions.

Coverpoint, one note for you....can you please forget where these players stand in test matches, and base your opinion on ODI performances this season? E.g. Do you know that twise this season teams have chased down BIG 300+ totals against Aussies?...and one more time Nz threatened to do it, fell just short. And this was outside the so called batting friendly subcontinent
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Cover Point

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #113 on: May 01, 2006, 06:29:11 PM »

coverpoint and jfk: no I am not underestimating the savagery of Hussye and Symonds...they are great ODI players today....but so are Yuvraj and Dhoni. We played against all top ranking teams this season, except Aus, and both did well. I don't really understand what gives you the impression that on current form our duo is any less? Ofcourse, once again, I would myself add that they have to play out of home conditions (well....read my previous post....ODI is getting same kind of conditions all around, these days...but anyway that aside..) and same way Hussey also needs to prove himself in the sluggish or spin or grind kind of ODI conditions.

Coverpoint, one note for you....can you please forget where these players stand in test matches, and base your opinion on ODI performances this season? E.g. Do you know that twise this season teams have chased down BIG 300+ totals against Aussies?...and one more time Nz threatened to do it, fell just short. And this was outside the so called batting friendly subcontinent

Fair enough... so that chasing down is an indication of the ability of Aussie bowlers rather than batting and I have not commented on the aussie bowling yet.

The point is that the kind of consistent Savagery I have seen from Symonds .. I havent seen from Dhoni or Yuvi. I think Symonds return was 2003 WC against Pak with that 148. Symonds has only gotten better. The way Symonds (and ponting too for that matter) have the ability to score big and fast in the death I havent seen replicated. Symonds can hit sixes at will. Anytime Symonds has gone past 50 ... just see his strike rate between 50 to until he finishes. Our players just dont seem to have to stamina for those consistent big hits.

Dont get me wrong. I am all for supporting our players and all ... but symonds, Ponting and hussey are on a different plane! Only Sachin and Sehwag have the same ability and Sachin's case it seems is more of HAD (Sehwag I believe will come back in form)
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worma

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #114 on: May 01, 2006, 06:32:22 PM »

coverpoint and jfk: no I am not underestimating the savagery of Hussye and Symonds...they are great ODI players today....but so are Yuvraj and Dhoni. We played against all top ranking teams this season, except Aus, and both did well. I don't really understand what gives you the impression that on current form our duo is any less? Ofcourse, once again, I would myself add that they have to play out of home conditions (well....read my previous post....ODI is getting same kind of conditions all around, these days...but anyway that aside..) and same way Hussey also needs to prove himself in the sluggish or spin or grind kind of ODI conditions.

Coverpoint, one note for you....can you please forget where these players stand in test matches, and base your opinion on ODI performances this season? E.g. Do you know that twise this season teams have chased down BIG 300+ totals against Aussies?...and one more time Nz threatened to do it, fell just short. And this was outside the so called batting friendly subcontinent

Fair enough... so that chasing down is an indication of the ability of Aussie bowlers rather than batting and I have not commented on the aussie bowling yet.

The point is that the kind of consistent Savagery I have seen from Symonds .. I havent seen from Dhoni or Yuvi. I think Symonds return was 2003 WC against Pak with that 148. Symonds has only gotten better. The way Symonds (and ponting too for that matter) have the ability to score big and fast in the death I havent seen replicated. Symonds can hit sixes at will. Anytime Symonds has gone past 50 ... just see his strike rate between 50 to until he finishes. Our players just dont seem to have to stamina for those consistent big hits.

Dont get me wrong. I am all for supporting our players and all ... but symonds, Ponting and hussey are on a different plane! Only Sachin and Sehwag have the same ability and Sachin's case it seems is more of HAD (Sehwag I believe will come back in form)
I agree that Symonds has performed for a long time (yes since the 'return' against Pak in WC)...and Yuvraj, Dhoni have just started doing it. But who knows whether they would be able to sustain it or not? Maybe they wont, and then I would take back my assertions (I even mentioned this earlier). But right now, this season, they are looking as good.
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fineleg

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #115 on: May 01, 2006, 06:33:52 PM »

Worma,
Rams beat me to it. I was gonna bring up the outside subcontinent issue, but you have already responded to that above. Time and again, we have seen Aussies raise their game up several notches for key matches and series, would u agree?

You are saying past season we compare with them - just keep in mind that come WC-07, they are gonna go up some levels if past is anything to go by. What do u think? This is where the "equal looking" Aussies, rise over other opponents, they just go Turbo-boost for key matches/series.
 
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Cover Point

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #116 on: May 01, 2006, 06:49:52 PM »

Worma,
Rams beat me to it. I was gonna bring up the outside subcontinent issue, but you have already responded to that above. Time and again, we have seen Aussies raise their game up several notches for key matches and series, would u agree?

You are saying past season we compare with them - just keep in mind that come WC-07, they are gonna go up some levels if past is anything to go by. What do u think? This is where the "equal looking" Aussies, rise over other opponents, they just go Turbo-boost for key matches/series.
 

and i still dont buy the equal hype and do buy the hype that they will raise their game a few notches. scary.

For a while I was thinking .... ok good Hayden seems to be getting out of ODI's gilchrist will fade .. wrath is done .. so aussies will come back to da earth! And then they produce a Hussey and all hope fades :)

In terms of pure destructive power, Gilchrist, Ponting, Symonds, Hussey cant be matched.

On another note, we seem to hype our "allrounders" so much. I mean a pathan being what he is and all ... but has anyone noticed how Blee seems to be batting? I need to look up stats but seems like he has been batting well in both tests and odi's. So there is another one :(
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worma

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #117 on: May 01, 2006, 06:51:39 PM »

Worma,
Rams beat me to it. I was gonna bring up the outside subcontinent issue, but you have already responded to that above. Time and again, we have seen Aussies raise their game up several notches for key matches and series, would u agree?

You are saying past season we compare with them - just keep in mind that come WC-07, they are gonna go up some levels if past is anything to go by. What do u think? This is where the "equal looking" Aussies, rise over other opponents, they just go Turbo-boost for key matches/series.
 
good point, fineleg. About Aussies raising their game for the key moments. Sure..no-one else does it so well, agreed (except maybe Imran's Pak did it that time). On that front...we can just wait and see how this Indian side goes. If we are not able to match the Aussies on that aspect...then we won't have a chance...I too fear.
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fineleg

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #118 on: May 01, 2006, 06:53:32 PM »

Noticed a bit, but not a lot abt B.Lee batting - shucks, is he really becoming a pain by scoring runs? :-\
Would not want him to develop too much batting skills, now!  >:(

CP,
You have a response pending in the Lakhan thread I believe!
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=2612.msg36642#msg36642
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 06:59:18 PM by fineleg »
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worma

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #119 on: May 01, 2006, 06:54:32 PM »

Worma,
Rams beat me to it. I was gonna bring up the outside subcontinent issue, but you have already responded to that above. Time and again, we have seen Aussies raise their game up several notches for key matches and series, would u agree?

You are saying past season we compare with them - just keep in mind that come WC-07, they are gonna go up some levels if past is anything to go by. What do u think? This is where the "equal looking" Aussies, rise over other opponents, they just go Turbo-boost for key matches/series.
 

and i still dont buy the equal hype and do buy the hype that they will raise their game a few notches. scary.

For a while I was thinking .... ok good Hayden seems to be getting out of ODI's gilchrist will fade .. wrath is done .. so aussies will come back to da earth! And then they produce a Hussey and all hope fades :)

In terms of pure destructive power, Gilchrist, Ponting, Symonds, Hussey cant be matched.

On another note, we seem to hype our "allrounders" so much. I mean a pathan being what he is and all ... but has anyone noticed how Blee seems to be batting? I need to look up stats but seems like he has been batting well in both tests and odi's. So there is another one :(
Pathan, as an allrounder *in ODIs*, is not a hype. He is the 2nd ranked ODI bowler, and 3rd ranked ODI allrounder. Why do you think *we* are hyping it?

Ofcourse they all need to prove outside the subcontinent (Pathan the bowler has shown glimpses of what he can do, already) but on that front, as I said, we have to wait for the results of this whole outfit...not just him
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