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Author Topic: Have we found an answer to this question??  (Read 24841 times)

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ramshorns

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2006, 04:26:16 AM »

VVS didn't play WC03 and Kumble didn't play much in that one so what is this fuss about.

VVS was never a good ODI player but tests are totally diff. So make your own judgments.
No problems with that.  You are entiltled to your opinions.  But when the personal element of accusing someones motive or suggesting rooting against India because VVS is not in the team comes in sorry I will reply aptly.  No two ways about it.   I spent freakin time and money to watch Indian matches.  I hope some of the others like you see the difference.  Also I will never make fuss of anything.  This is nothing trust me.  With me it goes both ways.  I give some when it is warranted and take it when someone dishes out.  But when you accuse me of things I am not, watch out.  I will let it be known. 
accusing you. what r u talking?
Sorry, SQCUT, if it came out that way.  The entire post excepting the portion of the first line was giving you an idea of what happended on this thread.  So if you read that again you will see my point.
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squarecut

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2006, 04:33:23 AM »

VVS didn't play WC03 and Kumble didn't play much in that one so what is this fuss about.

VVS was never a good ODI player but tests are totally diff. So make your own judgments.
No problems with that.  You are entiltled to your opinions.  But when the personal element of accusing someones motive or suggesting rooting against India because VVS is not in the team comes in sorry I will reply aptly.  No two ways about it.   I spent freakin time and money to watch Indian matches.  I hope some of the others like you see the difference.  Also I will never make fuss of anything.  This is nothing trust me.  With me it goes both ways.  I give some when it is warranted and take it when someone dishes out.  But when you accuse me of things I am not, watch out.  I will let it be known. 
accusing you. what r u talking?
Sorry, SQCUT, if it came out that way.  The entire post excepting the portion of the first line was giving you an idea of what happended on this thread.  So if you read that again you will see my point.

Thats ok. I don't want to attack anybody  personally. My point was VVS was not considered for WC03 which I think was a bad call but for WC07 I don't think he himself believes that he stand a chance.
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ramshorns

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2006, 04:41:03 AM »

VVS didn't play WC03 and Kumble didn't play much in that one so what is this fuss about.

VVS was never a good ODI player but tests are totally diff. So make your own judgments.
No problems with that.  You are entiltled to your opinions.  But when the personal element of accusing someones motive or suggesting rooting against India because VVS is not in the team comes in sorry I will reply aptly.  No two ways about it.   I spent freakin time and money to watch Indian matches.  I hope some of the others like you see the difference.  Also I will never make fuss of anything.  This is nothing trust me.  With me it goes both ways.  I give some when it is warranted and take it when someone dishes out.  But when you accuse me of things I am not, watch out.  I will let it be known. 
accusing you. what r u talking?
Sorry, SQCUT, if it came out that way.  The entire post excepting the portion of the first line was giving you an idea of what happended on this thread.  So if you read that again you will see my point.

Thats ok. I don't want to attack anybody  personally. My point was VVS was not considered for WC03 which I think was a bad call but for WC07 I don't think he himself believes that he stand a chance.
Don't worry about it.  I know your stand on things and how you convey your opinions.  But if you see VVS's interview off late, he still beleives in it.  Actually it is me who do not believe in it.  Being practical.  Any way there are plenty of links to that thread if you scroll up and get there.  The case has been beaten down to death.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2006, 04:44:11 AM by ramshorns »
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fineleg

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2006, 06:51:53 AM »

While winning WC-07 would be more than thrilling, that is not the yardstick to measure the success of the ODI team - that is done over quite a few series and how we play in different conditions against diff teams. If we do well in WC (semis is prob min we expect, entering finals will be real good), and if we do well in other series, then IMO, our ODI team can be considered improved. That would be the yardstick to judge, not just one tournament.

Cannot decide based on just one match or one series.

Fair enough, but do you agree that everything that has been done by the "new BCCI", most notably More, GC, Pawar was geared towards the WC? That was the reason for all personnel changes (not just SG), and that was the reason the new coach was chosen (as has been reported on this DG). Surely you agree that the new BCCI management has set the criterion for itself?

-P


Prfsr,
I dont agree everything was done for WC only - it was done for ODI in general - yes BCCI "public statements" laid WC emphasis, and surely focus is there, no doubt. But I have heard RD say time and again, the WC is only one tournament and there are many others. Overall improvement is what is needed.

Now, BCCI may mess up as usual, and attribute lack of a WC-win as a reason to chuck out GC - but that will be a knee-jerk reaction from them. I dont agree with that.

Long interview, but good one:
(courtesy sahir)
recent Rahul Dravid interview on "Aaj Tak"
(only complaint is that same highly irritating interviewer):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3120427701014612307&q=Dravid&pl=true
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jaat69

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2006, 01:00:47 PM »


Here is indignant meaning from Merriam Webster dictionary. I gave you a really long rope and you keep attacking me. Time will not and did not freeze with VVS or Gundappa, things changed a lot in cricket and to win ODIs, artistry and lazy drives is not going to help. Get this into your head and you might get out of your irritable mood. BTW, before attacking people, check the meaning of words and you will know who is being an idiot.

Main Entry: in·dig·na·tion
Pronunciation: "in-dig-'nA-sh&n
Function: noun
: anger aroused by something unjust, unworthy, or mean
synonym see ANGER

This is my last attempt at making you get into sensible debate. Any more personal attacks and you will get a fitting reply from me.

I wish things were as good, as you say!
Winning the WC too may happen, but I still can't help feeling that this is only an Indian -B team, playing other B-teams, with the exception of England.
That was there C-team!
I just cannot accept Uthappa, Rao, Dhawan, etc in place of SG/SRT and VVS too. They don't belong to the same class despite their recent good performances. Besides, RD was never a good ODI player and is still just abt acceptable.
The above is just my personal sentiments.
When you learn to respect other people's feelings, others will start respecting yours.
Its a 2-way deal!
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dhruvdeepak

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2006, 03:04:40 PM »


Here is indignant meaning from Merriam Webster dictionary. I gave you a really long rope and you keep attacking me. Time will not and did not freeze with VVS or Gundappa, things changed a lot in cricket and to win ODIs, artistry and lazy drives is not going to help. Get this into your head and you might get out of your irritable mood. BTW, before attacking people, check the meaning of words and you will know who is being an idiot.

Main Entry: in·dig·na·tion
Pronunciation: "in-dig-'nA-sh&n
Function: noun
: anger aroused by something unjust, unworthy, or mean
synonym see ANGER

This is my last attempt at making you get into sensible debate. Any more personal attacks and you will get a fitting reply from me.

I wish things were as good, as you say!
Winning the WC too may happen, but I still can't help feeling that this is only an Indian -B team, playing other B-teams, with the exception of England.
That was there C-team!
I just cannot accept Uthappa, Rao, Dhawan, etc in place of SG/SRT and VVS too. They don't belong to the same class despite their recent good performances. Besides, RD was never a good ODI player and is still just abt acceptable.
The above is just my personal sentiments.
When you learn to respect other people's feelings, others will start respecting yours.
Its a 2-way deal!


so results dont matter it is all about your peace of mind that your favorite senior players get to play.
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bala

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2006, 03:21:47 PM »

Can you repeat the queschun?  ;D
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flute202020

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2006, 03:25:35 PM »

Can you repeat the queschun?  ;D
;D good one. In all the noise(yours Truly included), I guess we lost track of the issue under discussion..lets get back on track, what's your take?
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bala

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2006, 03:30:33 PM »

Need one or two proven performers as backup.
Need to give chances to proven performers in a few games before WC to keep them match-fit.
Need to consider overall team ethos to make sure everyone fits in (don't need someone a la N. Mongia (if allegations against him are true))

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flute202020

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2006, 03:40:24 PM »

Need one or two proven performers as backup.
Need to give chances to proven performers in a few games before WC to keep them match-fit.
Need to consider overall team ethos to make sure everyone fits in (don't need someone a la N. Mongia (if allegations against him are true))


bala,
1. Proven Performers backup: The problem is, our former stars are all aging and their past performances may not mean much now. I guess I favour a case by case analysis. Like I said before, SG should be tried out and given a few chances in ODIs as a back up to Kaif, since he had a wonderful ODI record. VVS since he was never a huge hit in ODIs, with his limitations in terms of batting position, fielding, running between wickets etc., he better left to tests. AK, again is the same thing, he did not impress much in SL and is also a liability in the field. All our recent ODI success came by taking young, energetic and fit players. SG also has fielding isues but he is the type of player who can win us a match on his day.

2.Overall theam ethos: Please elaborate, not sure what exactly you wanted to change.
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CLR James

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2006, 03:40:55 PM »

Results do matter. We have done very very well in ODIs recently, and have performed below par in tests. But as Jaat pointed out, so far we have played second string teams in the subcontinent (except for the Pakistan series, which was an exhilerating win). Insofar as the goal to win the World Cup is concerned, quite a few questions remain.

1. Too many batsmen (VS, SRT, VVS, MK, GG,) are woefully and consistently out of form. SG of course has been kicked out without a fair chance for clearly personal reasons. Even RD's technique, with his numerous bowled through the gate or LBW dismissals in recent times, looks brittle (question: is he today capable of producing those monumental double hundreds?). The batting is our greatest reservoir of strength. If that looks worrisome, if there are just too many top order collapses, then we do have to be worried.

2. We have won too many matches with one-two-three trick ponies in the form of YS, IP, Dhoni. While these youngsters have spectacularly come of age, we need to maximize output potential from other slots too.

3. Suresh Raina has emerged as a strong contender for greatness, but it is still premature to say that he will be a worthy successor to the likes of SG or VVS. What is more worrying is that contenders like MK and Venu have failed to emerge as clear and redoubtable options to replace ODI greats like SG. It is here that the question of politics comes in. Why is it that SG or VVS cannot be rotated with these single digit scoring people on a fair basis?

4. The bowling looks spectacular to me. The rise of Santh, Munaf, RP and Powar bodes well. They have already bailed us out on numerous recent ocassions when the batsmen have failed to deliver. I just hope this young attack acquires the steel and discipline to deliver under pressure. In 2003 our pace attack destroyed a lot of teams before losing nerve in the finals completely.
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jaat69

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2006, 03:42:10 PM »

Need one or two proven performers as backup.
Need to give chances to proven performers in a few games before WC to keep them match-fit.
Need to consider overall team ethos to make sure everyone fits in (don't need someone a la N. Mongia (if allegations against him are true))



That sounds reasonable alright! Only if GC thinks likewise! :)
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jaat69

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2006, 03:49:50 PM »

Results do matter. We have done very very well in ODIs recently, and have performed below par in tests. But as Jaat pointed out, so far we have played second string teams in the subcontinent (except for the Pakistan series, which was an exhilerating win). Insofar as the goal to win the World Cup is concerned, quite a few questions remain.

1. Too many batsmen (VS, SRT, VVS, MK, GG,) are woefully and consistently out of form. SG of course has been kicked out without a fair chance for clearly personal reasons. Even RD's technique, with his numerous bowled through the gate or LBW dismissals in recent times, looks brittle (question: is he today capable of producing those monumental double hundreds?). The batting is our greatest reservoir of strength. If that looks worrisome, if there are just too many top order collapses, then we do have to be worried.

2. We have won too many matches with one-two-three trick ponies in the form of YS, IP, Dhoni. While these youngsters have spectacularly come of age, we need to maximize output potential from other slots too.

3. Suresh Raina has emerged as a strong contender for greatness, but it is still premature to say that he will be a worthy successor to the likes of SG or VVS. What is more worrying is that contenders like MK and Venu have failed to emerge as clear and redoubtable options to replace ODI greats like SG. It is here that the question of politics comes in. Why is it that SG or VVS cannot be rotated with these single digit scoring people on a fair basis?

4. The bowling looks spectacular to me. The rise of Santh, Munaf, RP and Powar bodes well. They have already bailed us out on numerous recent ocassions when the batsmen have failed to deliver. I just hope this young attack acquires the steel and discipline to deliver under pressure. In 2003 our pace attack destroyed a lot of teams before losing nerve in the finals completely.

Very fair assessment CLR!.....Applause!
Despite all these recent victories, I am not too happy about the look of Indian batting. It looks second string compared to the earlier one.
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ramshorns

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2006, 03:56:06 PM »

Results do matter. We have done very very well in ODIs recently, and have performed below par in tests. But as Jaat pointed out, so far we have played second string teams in the subcontinent (except for the Pakistan series, which was an exhilerating win). Insofar as the goal to win the World Cup is concerned, quite a few questions remain.

1. Too many batsmen (VS, SRT, VVS, MK, GG,) are woefully and consistently out of form. SG of course has been kicked out without a fair chance for clearly personal reasons. Even RD's technique, with his numerous bowled through the gate or LBW dismissals in recent times, looks brittle (question: is he today capable of producing those monumental double hundreds?). The batting is our greatest reservoir of strength. If that looks worrisome, if there are just too many top order collapses, then we do have to be worried.

2. We have won too many matches with one-two-three trick ponies in the form of YS, IP, Dhoni. While these youngsters have spectacularly come of age, we need to maximize output potential from other slots too.

3. Suresh Raina has emerged as a strong contender for greatness, but it is still premature to say that he will be a worthy successor to the likes of SG or VVS. What is more worrying is that contenders like MK and Venu have failed to emerge as clear and redoubtable options to replace ODI greats like SG. It is here that the question of politics comes in. Why is it that SG or VVS cannot be rotated with these single digit scoring people on a fair basis?

4. The bowling looks spectacular to me. The rise of Santh, Munaf, RP and Powar bodes well. They have already bailed us out on numerous recent ocassions when the batsmen have failed to deliver. I just hope this young attack acquires the steel and discipline to deliver under pressure. In 2003 our pace attack destroyed a lot of teams before losing nerve in the finals completely.
Also do not forget Kaif is woefully out of form, not just out of form.  So was Sehwag out of form till that last match against Eng.  He was so embarassed that he dropped himself for couple of games.  This is where in SRT's absense they should have tried VVS/SG in the 2 places and just see if they have it in them.  If this competition has egged them on or not.  I have no idea what is going on?????It has been overlooked because of the wins in the sub-continent.  That is not fair.  Sure invest in RU or a Venu where you can, but with WC around the corner players like VVS and SG atleast should be tried on a rotational basis.  That could be done while trying out these youngsters.  It has not been done.  Very disappointing.
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Blwe_torch

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2006, 04:07:12 PM »

Results do matter. We have done very very well in ODIs recently, and have performed below par in tests. But as Jaat pointed out, so far we have played second string teams in the subcontinent (except for the Pakistan series, which was an exhilerating win). Insofar as the goal to win the World Cup is concerned, quite a few questions remain.

1. Too many batsmen (VS, SRT, VVS, MK, GG,) are woefully and consistently out of form. SG of course has been kicked out without a fair chance for clearly personal reasons. Even RD's technique, with his numerous bowled through the gate or LBW dismissals in recent times, looks brittle (question: is he today capable of producing those monumental double hundreds?). The batting is our greatest reservoir of strength. If that looks worrisome, if there are just too many top order collapses, then we do have to be worried.

2. We have won too many matches with one-two-three trick ponies in the form of YS, IP, Dhoni. While these youngsters have spectacularly come of age, we need to maximize output potential from other slots too.

3. Suresh Raina has emerged as a strong contender for greatness, but it is still premature to say that he will be a worthy successor to the likes of SG or VVS. What is more worrying is that contenders like MK and Venu have failed to emerge as clear and redoubtable options to replace ODI greats like SG. It is here that the question of politics comes in. Why is it that SG or VVS cannot be rotated with these single digit scoring people on a fair basis?

4. The bowling looks spectacular to me. The rise of Santh, Munaf, RP and Powar bodes well. They have already bailed us out on numerous recent ocassions when the batsmen have failed to deliver. I just hope this young attack acquires the steel and discipline to deliver under pressure. In 2003 our pace attack destroyed a lot of teams before losing nerve in the finals completely.
Also do not forget Kaif is woefully out of form, not just out of form.  So was Sehwag out of form till that last match against Eng.  He was so embarassed that he dropped himself for couple of games.  This is where in SRT's absense they should have tried VVS/SG in the 2 places and just see if they have it in them.  If this competition has egged them on or not.  I have no idea what is going on?????It has been overlooked because of the wins in the sub-continent.  That is not fair.  Sure invest in RU or a Venu where you can, but with WC around the corner players like VVS and SG atleast should be tried on a rotational basis.  That could be done while trying out these youngsters.  It has not been done.  Very disappointing.

I agree with you Rams!
Persisting with ordinary players is a recipe for fool-hardiness.
GC must remember that Team India is not up for his Grand gamble!
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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2006, 04:14:18 PM »

Thanks for getting back to the topic :)
So, atleast majority of us would agree the ODI matches in WI and SA will be very crucial as far as our WC  is concerned. All our recent wins came in subcontinent, I agree. But the manner in which they did that is amazing. I haven't see that kind of performance from an Indian time in a long long time, or let me say, never. Previously we used to have the opposition under our feet but somehow we used to give them a chance to sneak back. Thats the positive thing that can be taken from our recent performances. But the games in WI and SA will decide what our WC team will be, roughly. In my opinion, if VS and MK can regain their touch, then the chance for the other players who are left, to come back becomes almost nil. But having said that, players like VVS and AK should use the Tests in WI and SA to get in touch with the team and build their own confidence, so that if a fall back is necessary, they would be the ones getting into the squad. All in all, a proper communication channel has to be established between them and the team management.
PS: In all probability, we might win the series in WI, but I think we should take into consideration the way they win.
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ramshorns

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2006, 04:20:29 PM »


I agree with you Rams!
Persisting with ordinary players is a recipe for fool-hardiness.
GC must remember that Team India is not up for his Grand gamble!
Blwe:Also I have no problems with GC/RD's mantra of looking for the future.  I am all for it.  What is little perplexing is not giving these proven performers a chance.  As an example when RD was rested they called in VRV as a replacement.  I mean that did not make any sense whatsoever.  I mean for a big event like a WC a SG or a VVS who has done very well against great teams can be handy.  Sure you can be dismissive as well.  You can do that about RD, if you choose so.  But IMO youth can be tried at the same time and play VVS or a SG as well given the number of games we have.  Then among KAIF/VENU/VVS/SG/RU etc, pick the best based on these games to the WC.  That is not all that bad an idea.
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indcricfan

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2006, 07:27:48 PM »

I do think from India as a team has all potential to win world cup

why?
What GC/RD has done is changed whole approach the team is built now we have many average contributors and may be 1 or 2 exceptional(SRT and may be RD/VS). This is very much similar to australian team moto right. In one day if all the members can contribute around 30 we are set to win most games.
If u have noticed that is why we have not lost many games recently. No games lost chasing as each know if I get to my needed average the rest will contribute and win. They are yet to streamline the formula of batting first.

Earleir we would have 2 or 3 big scores in the games we win, now we see more even spread.

I would immemnsely enjoy earleir wins as 2 or 3 would score big(SG,SRT combo)

enjoyment level has gone down so I sometimes look for old high flair team

But if u look at it from team india point of view win is the most important aspect and I guess current team is making it count.

I know we have beaten many B teams. But tell me when have we so consistently beaten B teams  ;D

If I had bet money on a team I guess I will bet on current team, But if I had to pay money to watch and enjoy I would love to watch even now the old team  :D

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justforkix

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2006, 08:28:30 PM »

What GC/RD has done is changed whole approach the team is built now we have many average contributors and may be 1 or 2 exceptional(SRT and may be RD/VS). This is very much similar to australian team moto right.

Errr..... Aussies have gilly, hayden, punter, martyn, clarke, hussey, symonds. Average contributors ?!?!?
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fineleg

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2006, 08:45:50 PM »

What GC/RD has done is changed whole approach the team is built now we have many average contributors and may be 1 or 2 exceptional(SRT and may be RD/VS). This is very much similar to australian team moto right.

Errr..... Aussies have gilly, hayden, punter, martyn, clarke, hussey, symonds. Average contributors ?!?!?

For the first time I am glad to read kix *not* say "we can surely win it!" LOL :)

True - this WC-07 is going to be fiercely fought - most teams esp Aus are gonna be extremely competitive. Aussies we dont even have to guess.
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worma

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #60 on: April 30, 2006, 08:52:54 PM »

What GC/RD has done is changed whole approach the team is built now we have many average contributors and may be 1 or 2 exceptional(SRT and may be RD/VS). This is very much similar to australian team moto right.

Errr..... Aussies have gilly, hayden, punter, martyn, clarke, hussey, symonds. Average contributors ?!?!?
This is comparable to Indian lineup...IMO. We are discussing ODIs...right?
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justforkix

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2006, 09:00:02 PM »

Errr..... Aussies have gilly, hayden, punter, martyn, clarke, hussey, symonds. Average contributors ?!?!?
This is comparable to Indian lineup...IMO. We are discussing ODIs...right?

Yeah. but the Q is Aus batting vs. Indian bowling and Indian batting vs. Astralia bowling. Plz read my earlier post on this thread (reply #22).
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justforkix

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #62 on: April 30, 2006, 09:01:46 PM »

True - this WC-07 is going to be fiercely fought - most teams esp Aus are gonna be extremely competitive. Aussies we dont even have to guess.

don't think so. WI, SL and Eng will be non factors. It will be a 4-way horse race between India, Pak, SA and NZ for the 2nd spot  :)
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CLR James

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #63 on: April 30, 2006, 09:05:39 PM »

What GC/RD has done is changed whole approach the team is built now we have many average contributors and may be 1 or 2 exceptional(SRT and may be RD/VS). This is very much similar to australian team moto right.

Errr..... Aussies have gilly, hayden, punter, martyn, clarke, hussey, symonds. Average contributors ?!?!?

Actually all are below average bowlers. Especially Gilli. He positively sucks. Once he tried to effect a stumping off his own bowling.
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worma

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #64 on: April 30, 2006, 09:06:24 PM »

Errr..... Aussies have gilly, hayden, punter, martyn, clarke, hussey, symonds. Average contributors ?!?!?
This is comparable to Indian lineup...IMO. We are discussing ODIs...right?

Yeah. but the Q is Aus batting vs. Indian bowling and Indian batting vs. Astralia bowling. Plz read my earlier post on this thread (reply #22).
kix: the indcricfan post still looks like about Indian batting vs Aussie batting to me. And your reply was to that....that Aussies dont just have average contributors.

Atleast thats how I saw it...admittedly came late into the discussion...and maybe missing the bigger pic here being discussed.....lemme get back to that hibernation mode then ;-)
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fineleg

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #65 on: April 30, 2006, 09:11:42 PM »

True - this WC-07 is going to be fiercely fought - most teams esp Aus are gonna be extremely competitive. Aussies we dont even have to guess.

don't think so. WI, SL and Eng will be non factors. It will be a 4-way horse race between India, Pak, SA and NZ for the 2nd spot  :)

Dont write off Eng - they may have been humbled in Ind but will come back and may find themselves in semis.
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justforkix

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #66 on: April 30, 2006, 09:37:31 PM »

kix: the indcricfan post still looks like about Indian batting vs Aussie batting to me. And your reply was to that....that Aussies dont just have average contributors.

Atleast thats how I saw it...

That is true. But I still believe that even if compare Aus and Ind batter by batter, Aus have much more match winners with vast experience who have proved it on the big stage and who can adapt to any situation than India.

Symonds, Hussey, Punter, Clarke, Hayden can slog or accumulate. Gilly can slog. Martyn can accumulate. I agree we are moving in that direction. But don't have near that amound of experience that Aus have.
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justforkix

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #67 on: April 30, 2006, 09:38:52 PM »

Dont write off Eng - they may have been humbled in Ind but will come back and may find themselves in semis.

LOL  ;D ;D ;D ;D. This joke has made my day today  :D :D :D. They are in the pool with NZ, Canada and Kenya. I think Kenya/Canada will fancy their chances against Eng  ;D
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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2006, 09:53:04 PM »

Dont write off Eng - they may have been humbled in Ind but will come back and may find themselves in semis.

LOL  ;D ;D ;D ;D. This joke has made my day today  :D :D :D. They are in the pool with NZ, Canada and Kenya. I think Kenya/Canada will fancy their chances against Eng  ;D

It does seem like overconfidence bordering on arrogance! There is 10-11 months left to go for WC. They (ENG) have good bowlers and it is not like we won convincingly all the matches - 2 or 3 matches could have gone either way...I am not sure why you are totally writing them off. KP and AF need no intro - Tresco quite good, Harmison will be back. Anyways...

Infact, I dont think we can write off teams like that - with Lara on resurgence as captain, WI at home can put up good fight.

Probability of WI/Eng/SL winning WC is less - prob of Aus/SA winning is high - Ind/Pak/NZ somewhere in the middle.
But dismissing them as a laughing stock is either too overconfident or arrogant.
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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2006, 10:08:08 PM »

justforkix,
Symonds, Hussey, Punter, Clarke, Hayden can slog or accumulate. Gilly can slog. Martyn can accumulate. I agree we are moving in that direction. But don't have near that amound of experience that Aus have.
I agree Symonds, Hussey, Ponting,Clarke,Hayden,Gilchrist and Martyn are good batsman. As you said, they can slog/accumulate. Thats fine. Why dont we think of our batsmen the same way. Even if we put head to head. Gilchrist and Dhoni can slog/accumulate. As of now, they are even. Dhoni edges past Gilchrist, if Aus has to play Eng. Coming to Symonds, how about Irfan Pathan. Equals there. Aus 1 Ind 2 there. How about Hussey? I will put Yuvraj there.....Equals? Yes. 2-3. Clarke?? Raina?? Both are very good young players, but lets give this to Clarke even though Raina did no bad. 3-3. How about Ponting? We have The Man. Equals. 4-4. Hayden.....Sehwag....On current form Hayden edges past. 4-3. Martyn. How about Dravid...its 4-4 there. So, its not that easy to put our lineup aside, not so simple.
This is fun. Last time we did soemthing like this is for 1987 WCup:)
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poondu

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #70 on: April 30, 2006, 10:55:00 PM »

justforkix,
Symonds, Hussey, Punter, Clarke, Hayden can slog or accumulate. Gilly can slog. Martyn can accumulate. I agree we are moving in that direction. But don't have near that amound of experience that Aus have.
I agree Symonds, Hussey, Ponting,Clarke,Hayden,Gilchrist and Martyn are good batsman. As you said, they can slog/accumulate. Thats fine. Why dont we think of our batsmen the same way. Even if we put head to head. Gilchrist and Dhoni can slog/accumulate. As of now, they are even. Dhoni edges past Gilchrist, if Aus has to play Eng. Coming to Symonds, how about Irfan Pathan. Equals there. Aus 1 Ind 2 there. How about Hussey? I will put Yuvraj there.....Equals? Yes. 2-3. Clarke?? Raina?? Both are very good young players, but lets give this to Clarke even though Raina did no bad. 3-3. How about Ponting? We have The Man. Equals. 4-4. Hayden.....Sehwag....On current form Hayden edges past. 4-3. Martyn. How about Dravid...its 4-4 there. So, its not that easy to put our lineup aside, not so simple.
This is fun. Last time we did soemthing like this is for 1987 WCup:)

Irfan Pathan and Symonds are equal in batting ? Even tho I like Irfan's batting Symonds wins by a mile.
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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #71 on: April 30, 2006, 10:56:33 PM »

poondu,
I treated them as allrounders.
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kingcool1432

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #72 on: April 30, 2006, 11:06:58 PM »

justforkix,
Symonds, Hussey, Punter, Clarke, Hayden can slog or accumulate. Gilly can slog. Martyn can accumulate. I agree we are moving in that direction. But don't have near that amound of experience that Aus have.
I agree Symonds, Hussey, Ponting,Clarke,Hayden,Gilchrist and Martyn are good batsman. As you said, they can slog/accumulate. Thats fine. Why dont we think of our batsmen the same way. Even if we put head to head. Gilchrist and Dhoni can slog/accumulate. As of now, they are even. Dhoni edges past Gilchrist, if Aus has to play Eng. Coming to Symonds, how about Irfan Pathan. Equals there. Aus 1 Ind 2 there. How about Hussey? I will put Yuvraj there.....Equals? Yes. 2-3. Clarke?? Raina?? Both are very good young players, but lets give this to Clarke even though Raina did no bad. 3-3. How about Ponting? We have The Man. Equals. 4-4. Hayden.....Sehwag....On current form Hayden edges past. 4-3. Martyn. How about Dravid...its 4-4 there. So, its not that easy to put our lineup aside, not so simple.
This is fun. Last time we did soemthing like this is for 1987 WCup:)


I think JFKs point is Ponting vs RPSingh,Powar,Pathan != Sachin vs lee, warne, McGrath
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justforkix

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #73 on: April 30, 2006, 11:29:16 PM »

justforkix,
Symonds, Hussey, Punter, Clarke, Hayden can slog or accumulate. Gilly can slog. Martyn can accumulate. I agree we are moving in that direction. But don't have near that amound of experience that Aus have.
I agree Symonds, Hussey, Ponting,Clarke,Hayden,Gilchrist and Martyn are good batsman. As you said, they can slog/accumulate. Thats fine. Why dont we think of our batsmen the same way. Even if we put head to head. Gilchrist and Dhoni can slog/accumulate. As of now, they are even. Dhoni edges past Gilchrist, if Aus has to play Eng. Coming to Symonds, how about Irfan Pathan. Equals there. Aus 1 Ind 2 there. How about Hussey? I will put Yuvraj there.....Equals? Yes. 2-3. Clarke?? Raina?? Both are very good young players, but lets give this to Clarke even though Raina did no bad. 3-3. How about Ponting? We have The Man. Equals. 4-4. Hayden.....Sehwag....On current form Hayden edges past. 4-3. Martyn. How about Dravid...its 4-4 there. So, its not that easy to put our lineup aside, not so simple.
This is fun. Last time we did soemthing like this is for 1987 WCup:)

I think JFKs point is Ponting vs RPSingh,Powar,Pathan != Sachin vs lee, warne, McGrath

thanks kingcool. exactly my pt.

22 yards : what you say is reasonably true against common opponents. Although I disagree with your analysis w.r.t. following : I give the edge to Gilly. he has the advantage of having played in all conditions and has big match experience. same goes with Clarke vs. Raina. Clarke just more experience. but we are reasonably in the same page.
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justforkix

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2006, 11:38:21 PM »

fineleg :

I write off WI because they are too inconsistent, write off Eng because they (players and coaches) are simply not interested in ODIs, write off SL because they are lions at home, mice abroad. It is not overconfidence or arrogance, just observations. Sure, anything can happen any day and that is why WC is played. But the fact is WI/SL/Eng are pretenders. SA/NZ/Ind/Pak are contenders. ALl for 2nd spot, mind you  ;D ;D
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pieterSAN

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #75 on: April 30, 2006, 11:46:17 PM »

Gilchrist        v      Sehwag                      Gilchrist
Katich          v      Tendulkar                    Tendulkar
Ponting        v       Ganguly                      Ponting
Martyn         v       Dravid                        tie
Symonds      v       Yuvraj                        tie
Clarke          v       Raina                         Clarke
Hussey        v        Dhoni                         Hussey
Lee             v        Pathan                       Pathan

This is in all likelihood the best batting line-ups that India and Aus can field. Honestly, on paper there is little contest between the batting line-ups. Has anyone realized that Hussey has crossed 1000 runs at an average of more than 75 in both forms the game? Strike rate of 97 in ODIs.

Think I am wrong? You think the analysis is subjective and too close too call? Okay. For the moment let us assume that. Does this mean our chances in the WC are good? No. Check out our best fielders...Yuvraj, I am pained to say is not as good as Symonds and Clarke is better than Raina. And then they have Ponting, Hussey and Lee. On paper, this is no contest. This is not to say that we can rule out our chances. We are among the main contenders but Australia still remains overwhelming favorites.

England has a chance too because they will be playing in much more pleasant conditions in West Indies - the temp will be about 8-10 degrees lower and they will be a lot happier. I also saw that they can easily field a team that bats deep in the WC. And make no bones about it, Pietersen is the most dangerous batsman in the world right now, perhaps, bar Ponting. There is more than a hint of Richards in his approach with that streak of violent beauty.


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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #76 on: May 01, 2006, 12:00:23 AM »

:) Well, one thing hasn't changed in my 30 years of watching cricket. The attitude of Indian Fans. I hope our team doesnt think anywhere near on those lines. As you said, anything can happen in ODIs. Forgive, but I fail to understand why not vice versa??
Symonds better than Yuvraj May I ask you how can we conclude that?
Clarke better than Raina Same again?
Indian teams over the years failed fans like me, I agree. But hope is the best thing in this world.
All it takes is a running back catch towards mid wicket....no?
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pieterSAN

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #77 on: May 01, 2006, 12:18:04 AM »

:) Well, one thing hasn't changed in my 30 years of watching cricket. The attitude of Indian Fans. I hope our team doesnt think anywhere near on those lines. As you said, anything can happen in ODIs. Forgive, but I fail to understand why not vice versa??
Symonds better than Yuvraj May I ask you how can we conclude that?
Clarke better than Raina Same again?
Indian teams over the years failed fans like me, I agree. But hope is the best thing in this world.
All it takes is a running back catch towards mid wicket....no?

Just being objective here. Like I said, we are contenders but clearly second to the Aussies. As far as fielding goes I give Symonds and Clarke the edge over Yuvi and Raina based on what I have seen. They seem to be quicker to the balls and also to release it and yet they seem to hit the stumps at least as often if not more.

I don't give up hope but we need to acknowledge that the Aussies are clear favorites still.
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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #78 on: May 01, 2006, 12:26:56 AM »

Jiet,
I agree to a certain extent with you. In fact Clarke is one of two batsmen I picked to fill in Sachin and Lara. So I have very high regard in that aspect. But Raina's fielding is a joy to watch. I don't know if you ever got a chance to watch Sivaramakrishnan on the field. I saw him and saw Jonty and now seeing Raina. Please mark my words.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 01:51:01 AM by 22 Yards »
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pieterSAN

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #79 on: May 01, 2006, 12:46:44 AM »

22Y, The difference in fielding is telling when we look past Yuvi and Raina. We have about half dozen good fielders but the rest of them just don't measure up to Aussie standards. I like Raina's fielding too and I hope that he works hard on his batting so that he can evolve into the World Class batsman. Perhaps it is a little early to tell whether he is as good as Clarke? We'll see.

I am being realistic rather than pessimistic about India's chances. We can never overestimate the Aussies. It is best to realize that we have to very well prepared if we want to be serious about beating them in the WC. Fineleg would tell you - I am not pessimistic by nature. ;D ;D
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