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Author Topic: Have we found an answer to this question??  (Read 24406 times)

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fineleg

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #120 on: May 01, 2006, 06:55:46 PM »

Worma,
Rams beat me to it. I was gonna bring up the outside subcontinent issue, but you have already responded to that above. Time and again, we have seen Aussies raise their game up several notches for key matches and series, would u agree?

You are saying past season we compare with them - just keep in mind that come WC-07, they are gonna go up some levels if past is anything to go by. What do u think? This is where the "equal looking" Aussies, rise over other opponents, they just go Turbo-boost for key matches/series.
 
good point, fineleg. About Aussies raising their game for the key moments. Sure..no-one else does it so well, agreed (except maybe Imran's Pak did it that time). On that front...we can just wait and see how this Indian side goes. If we are not able to match the Aussies on that aspect...then we won't have a chance...I too fear.

Yep, worma - that may ultimately decide it. The head-on or team comparisons go so far and no further.
It is the ability to kick up the levels for key matches and series!
(Sorry to bring this here, but that is where I have to agree that vvs has done it better in indian side).
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worma

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #121 on: May 01, 2006, 06:57:03 PM »

Worma,
Rams beat me to it. I was gonna bring up the outside subcontinent issue, but you have already responded to that above. Time and again, we have seen Aussies raise their game up several notches for key matches and series, would u agree?

You are saying past season we compare with them - just keep in mind that come WC-07, they are gonna go up some levels if past is anything to go by. What do u think? This is where the "equal looking" Aussies, rise over other opponents, they just go Turbo-boost for key matches/series.
 
good point, fineleg. About Aussies raising their game for the key moments. Sure..no-one else does it so well, agreed (except maybe Imran's Pak did it that time). On that front...we can just wait and see how this Indian side goes. If we are not able to match the Aussies on that aspect...then we won't have a chance...I too fear.

Yep, worma - that may ultimately decide it. The head-on or team comparisons go so far and no further.
It is the ability to kick up the levels for key matches and series!
(Sorry to bring this here, but that is where I have to agree that vvs has done it better in indian side).
If by key matches you only mean against Aussies..then yes he's done it better than most.
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fineleg

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #122 on: May 01, 2006, 06:57:37 PM »


If by key matches you only mean against Aussies..then yes he's done it better than most.

He did it in Pak too. Thats how we got the glory of ODI series win in Pak for first time.
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worma

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #123 on: May 01, 2006, 07:00:45 PM »


If by key matches you only mean against Aussies..then yes he's done it better than most.

He did it in Pak too. Thats how we got the glory of ODI series win in Pak for first time.
Not taking away anything from him, but if that is what you mean by a key match, then Sachin, Saurav and some others in this team have 'been there done that' quite a few times...before and after...no?
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fineleg

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #124 on: May 01, 2006, 07:03:54 PM »


If by key matches you only mean against Aussies..then yes he's done it better than most.

He did it in Pak too. Thats how we got the glory of ODI series win in Pak for first time.
Not taking away anything from him, but if that is what you mean by a key match, then Sachin, Saurav and some others in this team have 'been there done that' quite a few times...before and after...no?

They have done so as well on occasions - here we may differ on who has done it when it was most needed and more often. But, suffice to say, it is the importance of raising the levels in a key series that Aus posess and we hopefully can learn that.
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gouravk

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #125 on: May 01, 2006, 07:15:41 PM »

I agree with Worma on the Pathan issue. I think he is a rare gem of a cricketer. It is just that when he is not on song it all goes horribly wrong for us. I see him as at least a 250+ wicket taker in either form of the game and a scorer of at least 4000+ runs before he is done. And these are pretty lose lower bounds.
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worma

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #126 on: May 01, 2006, 07:24:34 PM »

I agree with Worma on the Pathan issue. I think he is a rare gem of a cricketer. It is just that when he is not on song it all goes horribly wrong for us. I see him as at least a 250+ wicket taker in either form of the game and a scorer of at least 4000+ runs before he is done. And these are pretty lose lower bounds.
gourav: even I think he has to learn a few more tricks...esp in test matches in unfriendly conditions. But here the discussion was purely about ODIs...and in that form, I think, he's pretty good already. So the importance given to him is well deserved, in ODIs.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 07:31:57 PM by worma »
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gouravk

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #127 on: May 01, 2006, 07:26:22 PM »

of course, but my prediction stands.
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fineleg

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #128 on: May 01, 2006, 07:33:57 PM »

of course, but my prediction stands.

 [god] predictions vs my percentages! LOL :)
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Cover Point

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #129 on: May 01, 2006, 07:34:18 PM »

fineleg will respond in that thread.

In this one, OK dont get me wrong about Pathan. Was probably a poor choice of words on my part but I didn ot mean to belittle Pathan. I believe his ODI bowling will be better away ... specially in places like kiwiland and Pommieland where there is swing to be had.

My point was that our (good players) seem to get much more hype than others. Blee was an example of someone who has been pretty consistent in scoring with the bat but no one calls him an allrounder. Even Warne in tests has shown  consistency with the bat. And we have seen Dizzy score a double.

No arguments ... just tyring to show that Aussies is a deep and dangerous team. We need to get there!
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worma

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #130 on: May 01, 2006, 07:39:23 PM »

fineleg will respond in that thread.

In this one, OK dont get me wrong about Pathan. Was probably a poor choice of words on my part but I didn ot mean to belittle Pathan. I believe his ODI bowling will be better away ... specially in places like kiwiland and Pommieland where there is swing to be had.

My point was that our (good players) seem to get much more hype than others. Blee was an example of someone who has been pretty consistent in scoring with the bat but no one calls him an allrounder. Even Warne in tests has shown  consistency with the bat. And we have seen Dizzy score a double.

No arguments ... just tyring to show that Aussies is a deep and dangerous team. We need to get there!
Yes Lee has been playing well in ODIs...as a bowler who can bail team out...he looks to be getting to the Bichel kind of role. Anyways...if he does even better...he would automatically start being ranked as an allrounder...no probs with that. And that has no impact (or atleast it should not have) on how we judge Pathan as an ODI allrounder, IMO. No?

About Gillespie...have already said....infact just before his century....that he has started batting well enough to figure into the Aussies batting 'plans' (in the sense that they can define a role for him...and use that in overall batting strategy...e.g. do away with the allrounder..or e.g.2 use him to bat for time even in first innings, as a strategy, of slowing things down)..so he's a non-conventional test allrounder in that sense
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justforkix

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #131 on: May 01, 2006, 07:39:37 PM »

Better indicator would be that triseries against Pak and Aus in Abu Dhabi...its before CT. And btw, in recent times, I've often said this that ODI coditions around the world are not that different. You know, Aussies have played as much, if not actually more, 300+ kind of ODIs than us in this season.

Oh cool. I didn't know we were playing such a tourney. tough to keep track of nowadays ;). That will be interesting to watch.

coverpoint and jfk: no I am not underestimating the savagery of Hussye and Symonds...they are great ODI players today....but so are Yuvraj and Dhoni. We played against all top ranking teams this season, except Aus, and both did well. I don't really understand what gives you the impression that on current form our duo is any less?

It is just a feel and qualitative assessment if you are willing to accept that. Just from what I have seen all 4 players do. So, we can leave it at that - agree to disagree. Also, my feeling is our bowlers will lose the plot more and faster with the savagery of Symo and Hussey than for e.g., Aussie bowlers losing the plot against Yuvi and Dhoni.

Also, my basic point is can our bowlers stand the continuous savagery in the Aussie batting lineup - Gilly as opener, Ponting at #3, Symo at #5, Hussey at #6. Our bowlers are inexperienced and have not faced this kind of a batting lineup !!!! - bunch of psychos !!!!  ;D
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22 Yards

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #132 on: May 01, 2006, 07:57:12 PM »

A very nice debate.
But I don't know if you'd noticed, almost all of us agree, can I assume, that its going to be an Ind-Aus Final :)
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hastalavistababy

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #133 on: May 01, 2006, 08:00:58 PM »

A very nice debate.
But I don't know if you'd noticed, almost all of us agree, can I assume, that its going to be an Ind-Aus Final :)

It can be  Ind-Aus semi-Final
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justforkix

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #134 on: May 01, 2006, 08:11:48 PM »

A very nice debate.
But I don't know if you'd noticed, almost all of us agree, can I assume, that its going to be an Ind-Aus Final :)

3 of Ind, Pak, NZ, SA will be in the Semis for sure  :)
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prfsr

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #135 on: May 01, 2006, 08:12:01 PM »

Assuming we do reach the finals and meet Aus (just for the sake of discussion) who are we likely to have beaten in the semis?

-P [too lazy to check...]
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22 Yards

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #136 on: May 01, 2006, 08:17:09 PM »

prfsr,
I can come up with a rough estimation, sometime later tonight. It would be a fun exercise ;)
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worma

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #137 on: May 01, 2006, 08:18:49 PM »

Atleast I was commenting purely on a comparison of Indian and Aussie ODI teams as they stand today.

Who knows about the World Cup at this stage. Theres enough time for Lara to inspire WIndies to a better level (they have had right components for a while)...or Ponting misses out the WC due to injury...and Warne and McG dont make an appearance.....and even our own outfit..it can be different by then (Laxman and Saurav are still talking of a WC appearance).
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Cover Point

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #138 on: May 01, 2006, 09:01:34 PM »

Wonder what odds Sahir will give on this but I can give a prediction that ONE of Ind, Aus, Pak, NZ, WI, Eng, SL, Bangladesh, Zim, SA, Scotland, Netherland, Bermuda, Kenya, Canada, Ireland
would win the world cup. Even willing to put a dollar on it!

If pushed I can even go far out on a limb and come up with a shorter list of 10 out of it though do not want to shortchange Ireland's chances of winning the cup. What with Afridi playing for them :)
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22 Yards

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #139 on: May 01, 2006, 09:53:48 PM »

AUS/SCO-AUS   SL/BER-SL   KEN/CAN-KEN   WI/PAK-PAK
SA/HOL-SA   IND/BAN-IND   ENG/NZ-NZ   ZIM/IRE-X
AUS/HOL-AUS   IND/BER-IND   ENG/CAN-ENG   PAK/IRE-PAK
SA/SCO-SA   SL/BAN-SL   NZ/KEN-NZ   WI/ZIM-WI
SCO/HOL-X   IND/SL-IND   NZ/CAN-NZ   ZIM/PAK-PAK
AUS/SA-AUS   BER/BAN-BAN   ENG/KEN-ENG   WI/IRE-WI

Group A- AUS,SA in that order
Group B-  IND,SL
Group C-  NZ,ENG
Group D- PAK,WI

Super 8 Stage:

WI/AUS-AUS
SA/IND-IND
WI/NZ-WI (Assuming the usual Lara Special)
PAK/ENG-PAK
AUS/SL-AUS
WI/IND-IND
SL/NZ-NZ
PAK/SA-SA
ENG/IND-IND
 SA/SL-SA
AUS/ENG-AUS
PAK/NZ-NZ
 WI/SA-SA
 SL/ENG-ENG
 IND/NZ-IND
 AUS/PAK-AUS
 SA/NZ-SA
 SL/PAK-PAK
 AUS/IND-X
 SA/ENG-SA
 PAK/IND-IND
 WI/SL-WI
 AUS/NZ-AUS
 WI/ENG-ENG


AUS-5, 1 undecided
IND-5, 1 undecided
SA-5
PAK-2
NZ-2
ENG-2
WI-2
SL-0

AUS,IND,SA,NZ GO through Semis. (AUS and IND not necessarily in that order)

Semifinals:

S1: AUS vs SA-AUS or IND vs SA-IND
S2: AUS vs NZ-AUS or IND vs NZ-IND

FINAL: IND vs AUS - IND ;);)

PS: Optimistic Indian Fan view
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 10:06:54 PM by 22 Yards »
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prfsr

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #140 on: May 01, 2006, 10:01:17 PM »

22yards: very nice, thank you. Applause sent.

Seems like Ind, Aus, SA are/should be rated very highly.
Pak/Eng/NZ are the second tier.
SL, Zim, WI seem weaker. I guess we will know about Wi soon enough.

So who is the dark horse? Can SL upset some better teams? I would always take them seriously....

-P
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fineleg

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #141 on: May 01, 2006, 10:07:08 PM »

I have my doubts on these:
SA/IND - SA  has much higher chances of winning this

IND/NZ - NZ very good ODI side, so can't say for sure.

IND/PAK - always, always 50-50.

so change these assumptions a bit and picture may not be that rosy.
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fineleg

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #142 on: May 01, 2006, 10:08:23 PM »

22yards: very nice, thank you. Applause sent.

Seems like Ind, Aus, SA are/should be rated very highly.
Pak/Eng/NZ are the second tier.
SL, Zim, WI seem weaker. I guess we will know about Wi soon enough.

So who is the dark horse? Can SL upset some better teams? I would always take them seriously....

-P

AUS, SA - Highly rated
Ind/Pak/NZ/Eng - all second tier, no difference, can be anybody's match
SL,  WI - on current form, bit weaker - third tier.
Ban, Zim - 4th tier
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 10:15:22 PM by fineleg »
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22 Yards

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #143 on: May 01, 2006, 10:10:05 PM »

prfsr,
SL is definitely a dark horse. It all depends on how early can  Kumara and Mahela come to the party. And moreover, WI pitches are a bit similar to SL pitches.
Fineleg,
Yes, rosy becomes red then. But this one is  assuming AUS and IND are on top of their games.
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fineleg

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #144 on: May 01, 2006, 10:14:58 PM »

prfsr,
SL is definitely a dark horse. It all depends on how early can  Kumara and Mahela come to the party. And moreover, WI pitches are a bit similar to SL pitches.
Fineleg,
Yes, rosy becomes red then. But this one is  assuming AUS and IND are on top of their games.

Wait a min, WI pitches similar to SL! No, I dont think so.
WI are relatively faster and bouncier - nowhere close to lankan dustbowls or slow turners.

IMO, Dark Horse#1 West Indies (at home, and with Lara)
Dark Horse #2 Sri Lanka
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22 Yards

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #145 on: May 01, 2006, 10:17:13 PM »

Fineleg,
Very true. Can we ignore an increase in the importance of WI and SA tours, as days passby? Me...no
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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #146 on: May 01, 2006, 10:20:52 PM »

Fineleg,
WI pitches have become significantly slower and less bouncier except a couple of them. They are not as bouncy as they used to be in, say early 80s. SL pitches are famous for their low bounce. SL batsmen may find them easier to play on than say, AUS or SA pitches
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justforkix

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #147 on: May 01, 2006, 10:24:31 PM »

AUS, SA - Highly rated
Ind/Pak/NZ/Eng - all second tier, no difference, can be anybody's match
SL,  WI - on current form, bit weaker - third tier.
Ban, Zim - 4th tier

2 areas of disagreement :

Eng are a grossly overrated ODI team in your books  ;D ;D. How can you rate them so highly, when players themselves have openly expressed their lack of interest in ODIs ? Anyway after a 5-0 ashes drubbing and VB series thumping by both Aus and NZ, they will be pretty much down and out  :D :D

Also, sorry, I cannot rate SA along with Aus. that is an overrating for them or underrating Aus ;)

IMO

Aus - 1st tier
SA/Ind/NZ/Pak - 2nd tier : anyone can win on their day among these 4
Eng/SL/WI - 3rd tier : SL and WI inconsistent. Eng zilch interest
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 10:26:13 PM by justforkix »
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Sahir

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #148 on: May 01, 2006, 10:34:44 PM »


Aus - 1st tier
SA/Ind/NZ/Pak - 2nd tier : anyone can win on their day among these 4
Eng/SL/WI - 3rd tier : SL and WI inconsistent. Eng zilch interest


I think I agree with this tier rating, with the possible exception of NZ-- I think I'm tempted to slide them down a tier (they are sort of an in between-er that relies very heavily on Shane Bond).  WI-- I would rate this side as a wild card-- why?  Because they can rapidly move up to the top of the second tier if they realize their talent, but just as easily have the capbility to drop down to the likes of Bangladesh.  The English ODI team really is quite simply a 3 man team-- Flintoff, Pieterson, and Trescothick-- one of those has to win the match-- they are all matchwinners that can beat anybody almost singlehandedly (maybe not Trescothick singlehandedly), but relying so heavily on just a couple of players is not a very high percentage way to play the game.
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fineleg

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #149 on: May 01, 2006, 10:46:07 PM »

Sahir and Kix,
Reason for my "over-rating" of ENG
 Flintoff, Pieterson, and Trescothick - not just those 3
Their bowling attack impresses me - Harmison, Simon Jones (SJ does play odi's right?), Flintoff, Anderson to some extent.

I think they are yet to realize the odi potential. But these bowlers can create problems.
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Sahir

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #150 on: May 01, 2006, 11:24:59 PM »

Sahir and Kix,
Reason for my "over-rating" of ENG
 Flintoff, Pieterson, and Trescothick - not just those 3
Their bowling attack impresses me - Harmison, Simon Jones (SJ does play odi's right?), Flintoff, Anderson to some extent.

I think they are yet to realize the odi potential. But these bowlers can create problems.

That's true, but I think those express bowlers are much more effective in Tests, as opposed to ODIs.

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pieterSAN

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #151 on: May 02, 2006, 12:00:10 AM »


Aus - 1st tier
SA/Ind/NZ/Pak - 2nd tier : anyone can win on their day among these 4
Eng/SL/WI - 3rd tier : SL and WI inconsistent. Eng zilch interest


I think I agree with this tier rating, with the possible exception of NZ-- I think I'm tempted to slide them down a tier (they are sort of an in between-er that relies very heavily on Shane Bond).  WI-- I would rate this side as a wild card-- why?  Because they can rapidly move up to the top of the second tier if they realize their talent, but just as easily have the capbility to drop down to the likes of Bangladesh.  The English ODI team really is quite simply a 3 man team-- Flintoff, Pieterson, and Trescothick-- one of those has to win the match-- they are all matchwinners that can beat anybody almost singlehandedly (maybe not Trescothick singlehandedly), but relying so heavily on just a couple of players is not a very high percentage way to play the game.

Englang are not worried about World Cup right now with good reason - winning the Ashes in Australia would be bigger for them. And I think they have their priorities right.

I reckon that they will get a lot more serious about the WC after the Ashes. Trescothick, Pietersen, Flintoff, Harmison and Jones are all matchwinners. Paul Collingwood is also someone who can make a difference. Two months preparation is probably not ideal but still sufficient for them to be able click in the WC.

Tier 1 Aussies
Tier 2 SA, India, Pak, NZ, Eng
Tier 3 SL, WI
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justforkix

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #152 on: May 02, 2006, 12:20:56 AM »

Englang are not worried about World Cup right now with good reason - winning the Ashes in Australia would be bigger for them. And I think they have their priorities right.

That is true. So, if England lose the Ashes, they will be demoralised and lose interest in WC07. If England win the Ashes, they will be in 7th heaven and will take it easy and not bother about WC07  :D :D
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justforkix

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #153 on: May 02, 2006, 12:37:26 AM »

I think I agree with this tier rating, with the possible exception of NZ-- I think I'm tempted to slide them down a tier (they are sort of an in between-er that relies very heavily on Shane Bond).

That is true. But I think NZ is a very good ODI team because they have a lot of "utility" ODI players - Astle, McCullum, Vettori, Oram, Styris, Marshall (I rate him highly, even though he's struggling of late) and of course Fleming.

WI-- I would rate this side as a wild card-- why?  Because they can rapidly move up to the top of the second tier if they realize their talent, but just as easily have the capbility to drop down to the likes of Bangladesh.

I agree. Anything is possible with WI. They have both the talent to beat Aus and lose to Bang ;)
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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #154 on: May 02, 2006, 02:06:23 AM »

Anybody up for an upset table ;)
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fineleg

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #155 on: May 02, 2006, 02:20:45 AM »

Anybody up for an upset table ;)

I think Ban is gonna cause an upset or two at WC-07.
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Sahir

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #156 on: May 02, 2006, 02:22:36 AM »

Anybody up for an upset table ;)

I think Ban is gonna cause an upset or two at WC-07.

Let's hope not since they are playing us in the first round!

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22 Yards

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #157 on: May 02, 2006, 02:35:15 AM »

A totally upset World Cup may result in a SL/ENG final. (Just played with the original table, thats what I got)  :)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 02:38:24 AM by 22 Yards »
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fineleg

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #158 on: May 02, 2006, 02:36:30 AM »

Anybody up for an upset table ;)

I think Ban is gonna cause an upset or two at WC-07.

Let's hope not since they are playing us in the first round!


Frankly i wish they were not in our Group!!!
Every other group the two teams that are gonna go into Super 8 is clear.

Upset is gonna be rare in other groups, I dont like Ban in our group this time! Get a fishy feeling!
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justforkix

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Re: Have we found an answer to this question??
« Reply #159 on: May 02, 2006, 03:17:23 AM »

Frankly i wish they were not in our Group!!!
Every other group the two teams that are gonna go into Super 8 is clear.

Upset is gonna be rare in other groups, I dont like Ban in our group this time! Get a fishy feeling!

Also, we play them 1st up :). That is precisely why we need SG  ;D
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