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Author Topic: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!  (Read 2311 times)

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LosingNow

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Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« on: February 15, 2010, 02:21:47 AM »

Can Gore return his Nobel now?
--
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1250872/Climategate-U-turn-Astonishment-scientist-centre-global-warming-email-row-admits-data-organised.html

Professor Jones also conceded the possibility that the world was warmer in medieval times than now – suggesting global warming may not be a man-made phenomenon.

And he said that for the past 15 years there has been no ‘statistically significant’ warming.


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kban1

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2010, 02:46:40 AM »

WN:

true to form, you have read only the parts that conform to your already arrived at conclusions.

It seems to me that the article as well as the Prof's statements are filled with numerous qualifiers -- Which you chose to overlook ?


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LosingNow

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2010, 04:27:24 AM »

WN:

true to form, you have read only the parts that conform to your already arrived at conclusions.

It seems to me that the article as well as the Prof's statements are filled with numerous qualifiers -- Which you chose to overlook ?

Please read it again.. I did not overlook anything. He is waffling
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kban1

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2010, 06:02:14 AM »

Anything said without absolute and supreme confidence  / certitude is waffling ?

Hmmm, I wonder how many sure things there are in this world or is that people like to hear absolute and supreme certainty --one way or the other.

One way, it reassures them. The other way, it allows them to dismiss it.

Wither nuance, long live certitude, even the misplaced kind
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feverpitch

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2010, 11:04:13 AM »

Either you are with us or you are with the Devil... that's the kind of certitude WN seems to believe in... he, after all, is a Republican....
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Cover Point

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2010, 02:10:27 PM »

There is just [b]ONE[/b] word for the republicans

Sarah Palin and George W Bush.
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dextrous

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2010, 05:44:55 PM »

FP & CP are the voice of sanity in something!

Like Jon Stewart told Bill O'...you're now the sane voice in Fox News!
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ruchir

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2010, 06:24:00 PM »

There is just [b]ONE[/b] word for the republicans

Sarah Palin and George W Bush.

Ganguly is intellectually better than Obama.
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dextrous

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2010, 08:52:41 PM »

There is just [b]ONE[/b] word for the republicans

Sarah Palin and George W Bush.

Ganguly is intellectually better than Obama.

Ruchir, why not stick to some easier narrative like he's too smart (prof, you know) because it is very difficult to see how Obama is intellectually any less sound than Ganguly or yourself or why he doesn;t have ten times the brain capacity of Palin.

Palin is dumb & stupid. At least Lalloo plays the dumb card, but this one is actually hollow. The more you talk about Obama's brain, the more it sounds like sour grapes.

Now, off to my tea party.
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ruchir

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2010, 09:11:02 PM »

There is just [b]ONE[/b] word for the republicans

Sarah Palin and George W Bush.

Ganguly is intellectually better than Obama.

Ruchir, why not stick to some easier narrative like he's too smart (prof, you know) because it is very difficult to see how Obama is intellectually any less sound than Ganguly or yourself or why he doesn;t have ten times the brain capacity of Palin.

Palin is dumb & stupid. At least Lalloo plays the dumb card, but this one is actually hollow. The more you talk about Obama's brain, the more it sounds like sour grapes.

Now, off to my tea party.

I will excuse you for thinking that Obama is too smart. If the guy says that the same anger against Bush that voted him to presidency is the anger that voted Brown to victory, then there is

A) something very wrong with your understanding of being smart and intelligent.

B) Obama is so intellectually bankrupt that he has started believing that he is actually intelligent.

If you think Obama is intelligent and Palin in dumb, then there is something wrong with you, not Palin. And yes, it is about sour grapes... because that just what Obama's brain looks like.


Having said all that, the comment was for Aunty, to needle her, since everyone knows what she thinks of Ganguly.
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dextrous

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2010, 09:20:30 PM »

Regan could not propel the Republicans to take control of the house & the senate--does that make him any less popular among Republicans? Beat obama in the general elections, then talk. Taking Scott Brown's victory in a state that elected Mitt Romney not too long ago and hailing that as an American referandum is plain idiotic esp. considering the healthcare structure and healthcare support among the residents of that state.

And...again...I'm failing to see Obama=intelectucally bankrupt. Why?

And Palin is dumb. Even CP knows it.
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Cover Point

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2010, 10:31:14 PM »

FP & CP are the voice of sanity in something!

Like Jon Stewart told Bill O'...you're now the sane voice in Fox News!

Hey wanted to send compliments to you too.  Even you have managed not to sound an idiotic atleast a couple of times :)

(now dont remove this post .... u did call Ruchir an idiot ... even though his stance on the republicans may have given justification)
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ruchir

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2010, 02:46:17 PM »

Regan could not propel the Republicans to take control of the house & the senate--does that make him any less popular among Republicans? Beat obama in the general elections, then talk. Taking Scott Brown's victory in a state that elected Mitt Romney not too long ago and hailing that as an American referandum is plain idiotic esp. considering the healthcare structure and healthcare support among the residents of that state.

Sure, we will wait for Obama to be beaten in 2012. Mayans predicted it  ;D ;D

I will say this yet again, give MA voters credit for differentiating between local elections and national elections. They are not as stupid as you think them to be. When you vote for a governor, you are voting on your state issues. That's not hard to understand. You vote for governor candidate based on his policies, his vision for the state, how he wants to tackle state issues etc.

When you vote for a senator or representative, you vote for national issues. You vote based on that person's national policies, how you think he will operate in congress. Apart from getting pork money to state, a senator or representative usually acts as the voice of his voters on national scene.

Give MA voters a little credit that they understand the above.

That's why Brown's election has a lot of ramifications for Obama and Dems. He had made his stance clear on Obamacare, on water boarding, on fiscal conservatism. These are national issues. Knowing his stance, people still voted for him. Obama won MA by 26% difference in general elections. Brown won by 5%. That is 31% vote swing against Dems in general and Obama in particular. If you think that MA election is just an election, and Dem policy makers think like you, then I will be the happiest person on earth. If you fail to even acknowledge that people are turning against Obama policies and all the better. 2010 and 2012 elections will show up the reality.


And...again...I'm failing to see Obama=intelectucally bankrupt. Why?

And Palin is dumb. Even CP knows it.

How many examples should I give to show Obama an intellectual bankrupt? I have given many already.

And for Palin being dumb, if your explanation above is the best shot you could come up with, then I bow my head.  :notworthy:  Nothing more can be said about it... unless you show me how she is dumb, 'cause then I will show you how Obama is dumber.
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Cover Point

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2010, 04:49:37 PM »

More Love for Ruchir. Here are some examples of Palin's Dumbism (its a special word ... just for her)

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm

another one of her dumb and crooked example.

http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/sarah-palin-thinks-her-1st-amendment-ri

and we have the best for the last

http://www.allgreatquotes.com/sarah_palin_stupid_quotes.shtml
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ruchir

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2010, 06:42:07 PM »

More Love for Ruchir. Here are some examples of Palin's Dumbism (its a special word ... just for her)

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm

another one of her dumb and crooked example.

http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/sarah-palin-thinks-her-1st-amendment-ri

and we have the best for the last

http://www.allgreatquotes.com/sarah_palin_stupid_quotes.shtml

More dumbness from Obama for you, Aunty. Dumb is actually a very mild word for Obama.

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama-isms.htm


it just keeps getting better and better and dumber...

http://www.allgreatquotes.com/barack_obama_stupid_quotes.shtml


and if you thought Obama was a brilliant intellectual, with clarity of ideas and a brilliant ability to speak, then think again because he can't even construct a sentence without teleprompter!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxBX8sz3tO8
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dextrous

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2010, 07:14:29 PM »

ruchir,
out of interest i clicked on the about.com link. i still ain't getting dumb.

"No, no. I have been practicing...I bowled a 129. It's like -- it was like Special Olympics, or something." --making an off-hand joke during an appearance on "The Tonight Show", March 19, 2009 (Obama later called the head of the Special Olympics to apologize)

"The Cambridge police acted stupidly." —commenting on a white police officer's arrest of black scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. at his home in Cambridge, Mass., at a news conference, July 22, 2009

when you need paranthesis to explain a joke or a gaffe, it is diffcult to call that even funny:
"One such translator was an American of Haitian descent, representative of the extraordinary work that our men and women in uniform do all around the world -- Navy Corpse-Man Christian Brossard." –mispronouncing "Corpsman" (the "ps" is silent) during a speech at the National Prayer Breakfast, Washington, D.C., Feb. 5, 2010 (The Corpsman's name is also Christopher, not Christian)
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ramshorns

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2010, 07:27:23 PM »

Who is this Palin by the way?

The same one that contested on McCain's ticket and lost?   Refresh my memory?

If so why are we even talking about someone with such low IQ category. 

Why is she mentioned in the same sentence with icon Presidents like Obama.

If it is a discussion about Reagan or Bush's one can understand why it would be that way.  Because they all fall in the same low IQ category.  But with Obama it just does not makes sense.

Leaders like Obama and Clinton who are held at such an high pedestal and esteem the world over it is almost a crime to bring this Palin Valin into the same sentence or discussion.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 07:34:18 PM by ramshorns »
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dextrous

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2010, 07:38:49 PM »

Who is this Palin by the way?

The same one that contested on McCain's ticket and lost?   Refresh my memory?

If so why are we even talking about someone with such low IQ category. 

Why is she mentioned in the same sentence with icon Presidents like Obama.

If it is a discussion about Reagan or Bush's one can understand why it would be that way.  Because they all fall in the same low IQ category.  But with Obama it just does not makes sense.

Leaders like Obama and Clinton who are held at such an high pedestal and esteem the world over it is almost a crime to bring this Palin Valin into the same sentence or discussion.

Palin makes W. look like a genius.
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ruchir

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2010, 07:53:29 PM »

ruchir,
out of interest i clicked on the about.com link. i still ain't getting dumb.

What about.com link?


"No, no. I have been practicing...I bowled a 129. It's like -- it was like Special Olympics, or something." --making an off-hand joke during an appearance on "The Tonight Show", March 19, 2009 (Obama later called the head of the Special Olympics to apologize)

"The Cambridge police acted stupidly." —commenting on a white police officer's arrest of black scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. at his home in Cambridge, Mass., at a news conference, July 22, 2009

when you need paranthesis to explain a joke or a gaffe, it is diffcult to call that even funny:
"One such translator was an American of Haitian descent, representative of the extraordinary work that our men and women in uniform do all around the world -- Navy Corpse-Man Christian Brossard." –mispronouncing "Corpsman" (the "ps" is silent) during a speech at the National Prayer Breakfast, Washington, D.C., Feb. 5, 2010 (The Corpsman's name is also Christopher, not Christian)

You should direct your comment to Aunty. I am using the same websites that she used. If you think Obama quotes on these websites are not dumb because they use parenthesis, then surely the same apply to Palin too. Right?


And you have nothing to say about the youtube video? Now that's surprising... the fact that you are speechless about something.
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dextrous

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2010, 07:57:12 PM »

the about.com link you posted. or don't you look at what you're posting :P

i have not even looked at your video. what does he do, call someone retarded?
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ruchir

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2010, 08:21:43 PM »

the about.com link you posted. or don't you look at what you're posting :P

"UPS and FedEx are doing just fine, right? It's the Post Office that's always having problems." –attempting to make the case for government-run healthcare, while simultaneously undercutting his own argument, Portsmouth, N.H., Aug. 11, 2009

Hmmm... govt can't run even the cheapest of the govt departments properly, and Obama thinks govt will run the hugest govt department -> Govt health insurance department <- properly? That's just dumb.


"The Cambridge police acted stupidly." —commenting on a white police officer's arrest of black scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. at his home in Cambridge, Mass., at a news conference, July 22, 2009

Hmmm... before making this statement Obama says that "I wasn't there, I don't know what happened, I don't know all the facts...." but he knows Cambridge police acted stupidly? Now that's stupid.


"The reforms we seek would bring greater competition, choice, savings and inefficiencies to our health care system." --in remarks after a health care roundtable with physicians, nurses and health care providers, Washington, D.C., July 20, 2009

Is the dumbness big enough for you to see now?


"It was also interesting to see that political interaction in Europe is not that different from the United States Senate. There's a lot of -- I don't know what the term is in Austrian, wheeling and dealing." --confusing German for "Austrian," a language which does not exist, Strasbourg, France, April 6, 2009

Obama is really brilliant even in his dumbness.


"What I was suggesting -- you're absolutely right that John McCain has not talked about my Muslim faith..." --in an interview with ABC's George Stephanopoulos, who jumped in to correct Obama by saying "your Christian faith," which Obama quickly clarified (Watch video clip)

Yo mama.... Obama is so dumb he even forgot his religion!!!! Yo..



This is from one link only.. Is that enough or should I keep going?


i have not even looked at your video. what does he do, call someone retarded?

Watch it. I'm sure you will faint.
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dextrous

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2010, 08:32:47 PM »

Quote
"The Cambridge police acted stupidly." —commenting on a white police officer's arrest of black scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. at his home in Cambridge, Mass., at a news conference, July 22, 2009

Hmmm... before making this statement Obama says that "I wasn't there, I don't know what happened, I don't know all the facts...." but he knows Cambridge police acted stupidly? Now that's stupid.
Nope, that's not stupid, that's politically correct. In fact that was my first reaction and stays my first reaction about the arrest of Mr. Gates.


Quote
"The reforms we seek would bring greater competition, choice, savings and inefficiencies to our health care system." --in remarks after a health care roundtable with physicians, nurses and health care providers, Washington, D.C., July 20, 2009

Is the dumbness big enough for you to see now?
No, still don't see it. It is a gaffe.

Quote
"It was also interesting to see that political interaction in Europe is not that different from the United States Senate. There's a lot of -- I don't know what the term is in Austrian, wheeling and dealing." --confusing German for "Austrian," a language which does not exist, Strasbourg, France, April 6, 2009

Obama is really brilliant even in his dumbness.
Seriously? Does this make Bush retarded?

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ruchir

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2010, 09:11:58 PM »

Quote
"The Cambridge police acted stupidly." —commenting on a white police officer's arrest of black scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. at his home in Cambridge, Mass., at a news conference, July 22, 2009

Hmmm... before making this statement Obama says that "I wasn't there, I don't know what happened, I don't know all the facts...." but he knows Cambridge police acted stupidly? Now that's stupid.
Nope, that's not stupid, that's politically correct. In fact that was my first reaction and stays my first reaction about the arrest of Mr. Gates.


Quote
"The reforms we seek would bring greater competition, choice, savings and inefficiencies to our health care system." --in remarks after a health care roundtable with physicians, nurses and health care providers, Washington, D.C., July 20, 2009

Is the dumbness big enough for you to see now?
No, still don't see it. It is a gaffe.

Quote
"It was also interesting to see that political interaction in Europe is not that different from the United States Senate. There's a lot of -- I don't know what the term is in Austrian, wheeling and dealing." --confusing German for "Austrian," a language which does not exist, Strasbourg, France, April 6, 2009

Obama is really brilliant even in his dumbness.
Seriously? Does this make Bush retarded?

If you don't find them to be gaffes then please explain why Palin is dumb. I mean, you can give excuses for anything Obama does. He does not know Austrian is not a language, so what? But if Palin doesn't know that, she's dumb. Obama says reforms will bring inefficiencies to our health care system, so what? Just a slip of tongue, eh? If Palin had said that, sky would have fallen down. Obama calls Police stupid without knowing facts, so what? He's the prez, maaaann. He don't have to understand that office of president carries a lot of stature and a president should not be admonishing police on national TV... that too after saying he does not know all the facts. So what? He da man.
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dextrous

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2010, 09:18:04 PM »

Quote
"The Cambridge police acted stupidly." —commenting on a white police officer's arrest of black scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. at his home in Cambridge, Mass., at a news conference, July 22, 2009

Hmmm... before making this statement Obama says that "I wasn't there, I don't know what happened, I don't know all the facts...." but he knows Cambridge police acted stupidly? Now that's stupid.
Nope, that's not stupid, that's politically correct. In fact that was my first reaction and stays my first reaction about the arrest of Mr. Gates.


Quote
"The reforms we seek would bring greater competition, choice, savings and inefficiencies to our health care system." --in remarks after a health care roundtable with physicians, nurses and health care providers, Washington, D.C., July 20, 2009

Is the dumbness big enough for you to see now?
No, still don't see it. It is a gaffe.

Quote
"It was also interesting to see that political interaction in Europe is not that different from the United States Senate. There's a lot of -- I don't know what the term is in Austrian, wheeling and dealing." --confusing German for "Austrian," a language which does not exist, Strasbourg, France, April 6, 2009

Obama is really brilliant even in his dumbness.
Seriously? Does this make Bush retarded?

If you don't find them to be gaffes then please explain why Palin is dumb. I mean, you can give excuses for anything Obama does. He does not know Austrian is not a language, so what? But if Palin doesn't know that, she's dumb. Obama says reforms will bring inefficiencies to our health care system, so what? Just a slip of tongue, eh? If Palin had said that, sky would have fallen down. Obama calls Police stupid without knowing facts, so what? He's the prez, maaaann. He don't have to understand that office of president carries a lot of stature and a president should not be admonishing police on national TV... that too after saying he does not know all the facts. So what? He da man.
Dude, everyone who is in the public limelight is going to make errors, whether it is Obama, McCain, Biden, etc. Some people, like Biden, say politically incorrect things (Dunkin Donut and Indians)--that makes them a loudmouth, not stupid. The fact that you have to use "inefficiences" as an example that Obama is stupid shows either a desire to obfuscate Palin's transgression or a trigger-happy willingness to equate slip of tongue to stupidity. Now, using Serbia instead of Russia as her neighbor--that's ok. Using Russia as a neighbor to equate to foreign policy experice--that's dumb as a doorknob.

Anyway, I'm done aruging about the merits of intelligence. If as a reasonable human being you do not find Palin to be dumb, then there's not much i can do, other than to think of you as another tea partier (the only non-white one?)
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dextrous

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2010, 09:19:30 PM »

By the way, is Obama=dumb, something that hannity/jackasswhatshisface have started that you're parroting or is this your invention? Just for my information, so I expect this from other conservatives I have the misfortune of running into during the day
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ruchir

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2010, 09:39:55 PM »

Dude, everyone who is in the public limelight is going to make errors, whether it is Obama, McCain, Biden, etc. Some people, like Biden, say politically incorrect things (Dunkin Donut and Indians)--that makes them a loudmouth, not stupid. The fact that you have to use "inefficiences" as an example that Obama is stupid shows either a desire to obfuscate Palin's transgression or a trigger-happy willingness to equate slip of tongue to stupidity. Now, using Serbia instead of Russia as her neighbor--that's ok. Using Russia as a neighbor to equate to foreign policy experice--that's dumb as a doorknob.

If Palin is a doorknob then Obama is a screw in that doorknob. As I expected, if Obama makes a gaffe, it is deemed as something small, regular and non-consequential. If Palin makes a gaffe, the sky falls down. Yeah right.....


Anyway, I'm done aruging about the merits of intelligence. If as a reasonable human being you do not find Palin to be dumb, then there's not much i can do, other than to think of you as another tea partier (the only non-white one?)

Yeah, be done with it then. If you think Obama has any more intellectual capability than a stone on the road then there's not much I can do too.

You comment on me being a tea partier is unwarranted. There is no need for this comment. I have not uttered a single word about tea party so I don't understand why you choose to link me to entities that you don't even know I linked or not linked to. What's the use?


By the way, is Obama=dumb, something that hannity/jackasswhatshisface have started that you're parroting or is this your invention? Just for my information, so I expect this from other conservatives I have the misfortune of running into during the day

Yet again, why this personal attack? What's the need? Did I ever say that you parrot talking points from Olberman, Mathews, Maddow, Blitzer?
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dextrous

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2010, 09:43:33 PM »

Matthews? Blitzer?! If these guys are liberal, I'm an anarchist!!!!

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ruchir

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2010, 09:53:07 PM »

Matthews? Blitzer?! If these guys are liberal, I'm an anarchist!!!!

Thanks for clarifying that.

FYI - Matthews is the one who get a tingle up his leg when he sees Obama and is on record saying that he will do anything possible to make sure Obama presidency is a success. Imagine that. A newsman saying he will do anything possible to make sure a president's presidency is a success.

A wise man once said -- Who will watch the watchers?
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dextrous

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2010, 10:55:04 PM »

Matthews? Blitzer?! If these guys are liberal, I'm an anarchist!!!!

Thanks for clarifying that.

FYI - Matthews is the one who get a tingle up his leg when he sees Obama and is on record saying that he will do anything possible to make sure Obama presidency is a success. Imagine that. A newsman saying he will do anything possible to make sure a president's presidency is a success.

A wise man once said -- Who will watch the watchers?

You know Matthews used to be a registered Republican who is hated among liberal bloggers? In fact, just 2 years ago there was a movement on dailykos to petition MSNBC to strip him off his show.

And Blitzer? When was the last time he said anything remotely controversial?

To answer your question--Sean Hannity!
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Cover Point

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2010, 03:03:07 AM »

the about.com link you posted. or don't you look at what you're posting :P

"UPS and FedEx are doing just fine, right? It's the Post Office that's always having problems." –attempting to make the case for government-run healthcare, while simultaneously undercutting his own argument, Portsmouth, N.H., Aug. 11, 2009

Hmmm... govt can't run even the cheapest of the govt departments properly, and Obama thinks govt will run the hugest govt department -> Govt health insurance department <- properly? That's just dumb.


this is the biggest joke and the fact that republicans use this shows how moronic their constituents are. He was making a point that UPS and fedex did not go bankrupt just because Post office is around and run by the govt.

but its easy for fox news to fool its pet moronic red necks who are ignorant and cant tell the difference between saddam and osama. Half of them still believe that US found WMD in Iraq
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ruchir

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2010, 04:05:49 PM »

Dex:

Quote
You know Matthews used to be a registered Republican who is hated among liberal bloggers? In fact, just 2 years ago there was a movement on dailykos to petition MSNBC to strip him off his show.

I don't care what Matthews was. I care about what he does today. I don't form my opinions of him based on what some obscure blogger is saying. I based them on what I hear him say.


Quote
To answer your question--Sean Hannity!

Search for the the following phrase: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

My phrase was from memory, loosely based on the one above. See, I'm not stupid and don't just stay glued to Fox.
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ruchir

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2010, 04:09:33 PM »

Aunty:

Quote
this is the biggest joke and the fact that republicans use this shows how moronic their constituents are. He was making a point that UPS and fedex did not go bankrupt just because Post office is around and run by the govt.

If I'm not wrong, I explained this in detail in another thread. Fedex and UPS don't go bankrupt because average spending by an American on all kind of postage is so little that he can afford to pay the slightly costlier costs of UPS and Fedex, in expectation of better service and delivery. How much do you spend on postage in a year? $20? $50?

The point is that federal govt (under any party) can not run efficiently one of the cheaper public service departments (USPS). What gives anyone confidence that federal govt will be able to run the biggest public service department efficiently (health insurance)?

Today, most Americans get employer based health insurance. Tomorrow, if employers drop the insurance plan (and pay 2%-8% fine), where will people go? They will be forced to buy govt health insurance because paying 100% monthly premium for the same plan that they had till now will be out of budget. Once millions of people drop out of private health insurance companies, these companies will either go out of business or will raise their premiums even more to survive (which will make them even less consumer friendly). That's how private insurance will be killed by govt health plan. Same can not be said for Fedex and UPS because monthly or even yearly expenditure on postage related expenses is barely noticeable.

I hope you will realize that this is not a joke. It is a serious discussion that is taken as a joke by Dems and their supporters because they don't have an answer for it.


Quote
but its easy for fox news to fool its pet moronic red necks who are ignorant and cant tell the difference between saddam and osama. Half of them still believe that US found WMD in Iraq

Rednecks are humans too, and they deserve the same respect that you do. If you think they are morons then I will say that Dem and Obama supporters are even bigger moronic ignorants because they believe that Obama is an intellectual, when he is nothing but a gutter level politician with an intellect of a tapeworm.

In case you want a discussion on how govt health plan will kill private insurance, read the comment above.
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Cover Point

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2010, 09:19:49 PM »

Aunty:

Quote
this is the biggest joke and the fact that republicans use this shows how moronic their constituents are. He was making a point that UPS and fedex did not go bankrupt just because Post office is around and run by the govt.

If I'm not wrong, I explained this in detail in another thread. Fedex and UPS don't go bankrupt because average spending by an American on all kind of postage is so little that he can afford to pay the slightly costlier costs of UPS and Fedex, in expectation of better service and delivery. How much do you spend on postage in a year? $20? $50?

The point is that federal govt (under any party) can not run efficiently one of the cheaper public service departments (USPS). What gives anyone confidence that federal govt will be able to run the biggest public service department efficiently (health insurance)?

Today, most Americans get employer based health insurance. Tomorrow, if employers drop the insurance plan (and pay 2%-8% fine), where will people go? They will be forced to buy govt health insurance because paying 100% monthly premium for the same plan that they had till now will be out of budget. Once millions of people drop out of private health insurance companies, these companies will either go out of business or will raise their premiums even more to survive (which will make them even less consumer friendly). That's how private insurance will be killed by govt health plan. Same can not be said for Fedex and UPS because monthly or even yearly expenditure on postage related expenses is barely noticeable.

I hope you will realize that this is not a joke. It is a serious discussion that is taken as a joke by Dems and their supporters because they don't have an answer for it.

Ok so what you are saying is that an inefficient Govt can run a cheaper department than a full fledged private company?

The first point is that USPS and Fedex are in different business. How many times do you see Fedex deliver regular letters etc. They are used only for expensive more important deliveries. Where you are willing to pay A LOT MORE for that extra service.

For regular mail (reliable .... but not necessarily critical) you will always use USPS.

Let me see Fedex deliver anything ... even a letter for 46 cents (or even a buck) and then we will talk. USPS can also deliver important letters to places for a more comparable fees. People have a choice some (many) choose Fedex some choose USPS.

Coming to health care .... govt can do a lot of stuff cheaper. By using their own negotiation they can bring the costs down. They dont have to run Fedex or other health care plans out of business. They just have to provide competition.

Quote
Quote
but its easy for fox news to fool its pet moronic red necks who are ignorant and cant tell the difference between saddam and osama. Half of them still believe that US found WMD in Iraq

Rednecks are humans too, and they deserve the same respect that you do. If you think they are morons then I will say that Dem and Obama supporters are even bigger moronic ignorants because they believe that Obama is an intellectual, when he is nothing but a gutter level politician with an intellect of a tapeworm.

In case you want a discussion on how govt health plan will kill private insurance, read the comment above.

Rednecks dont deserve the respect because they are ignorant. I dont mind debating with you since you atleast bring ideas that you have read about. I dont have to agree with your conclusions but can atleast respect that you do research.

Rednecks (or a vast majority of Republican cattle) are just ignorant. Lazy bums incapable or unable to do their own research  they just lap up all the crap fed to them by Fox News. They dont deserve respect.

I will tell you one thing (I told WN once) from my own personal thinking I am closer to a Compassionate Social and fiscal conservative. Unfortunately Repubs are not there. Bush was the biggest spender. All they want to do is fund war and help the big corporations.

Health care is too important to be left as is. The country will go bankrupt. I never said that Obama's plan was perfect. But it is something. It is a change. All republicans want is status quo. And that is nothing but disaster
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ruchir

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2010, 10:24:03 PM »

Ok so what you are saying is that an inefficient Govt can run a cheaper department than a full fledged private company?

No. I am saying a govt can NOT even run that department properly, which has very low monetary effect on lives of Americans.


The first point is that USPS and Fedex are in different business. How many times do you see Fedex deliver regular letters etc. They are used only for expensive more important deliveries. Where you are willing to pay A LOT MORE for that extra service.

For regular mail (reliable .... but not necessarily critical) you will always use USPS.

You just made my point...

Why is there no other private service that provides regular mail services? Because federal govt provides that service for dirt cheap.

Why does federal govt provide this service for dirt cheap? I don't know why.

What's the result of federal govt providing regular mail service for dirt cheap? USPS always runs in loss.

Am I happy with the dirt cheap regular mail service that federal govt is providing through USPS? No. For example, in the recent snow storm in MD, USPS was shut down for 11 days. During these 11 days UPS and Fedex trucks were delivering their stuff in my apartment complex. How's that for customer service? I have to stand in line for 30 minutes to buy a book of stamps. Why? Because only 2 of 5 counters are open. Why? I don't know.

Would I pay 55 cents instead of 44 cents to a private company if they were able to provide regular mail services to be better than USPS? Hell Yes!!!!


You see what I am trying to say? When federal govt starts providing something for free or cheap, it immediately kills the private competition in that area because private company can not provide the same service cheaper than govt. In a capitalist economy, most services should be provided by private companies. Now don't think that I am saying federal govt should shut down USPS. When govt starts providing services it kills private competition in that field.

Also, when govt starts providing everything to you, it starts dictating things to you too. Slowly, it starts dictating how you should be living. Choices disappear, only dictates remain.

So, if federal govt runs USPS in loss, a service that has very little monetary impact, imagine what will happen if federal govt starts dispensing health insurance and kills private competition in this field and then runs health insurance like it runs USPS.



Coming to health care .... govt can do a lot of stuff cheaper. By using their own negotiation they can bring the costs down. They dont have to run Fedex or other health care plans out of business. They just have to provide competition.

Govt never has to do anything to run private business out of business. IT just has to enter that field.

Do you know of any area of large monetary impact on a citizen, where govt competes with private companies? You will be hard pressed to find an example. Now think why you will not easily find an example. The answer is that when govt enters a business field to provide competition to private companies, it does not provide any competition. It KILLS private competition.

It is US govt policy to not let monopoly be created in market, in any industry. By entering into market, govt does just that. It creates it's own monopoly.



Rednecks dont deserve the respect because they are ignorant. I dont mind debating with you since you atleast bring ideas that you have read about. I dont have to agree with your conclusions but can atleast respect that you do research.

Rednecks (or a vast majority of Republican cattle) are just ignorant. Lazy bums incapable or unable to do their own research  they just lap up all the crap fed to them by Fox News. They dont deserve respect.

Just keep one thing in mind. Rednecks may have the same view of you too. That you are ignorant. That you lap up all the crap fed to you by MSNCB, CNN etc. I'm sure you don't give a damn about that, but I'm just saying.


I will tell you one thing (I told WN once) from my own personal thinking I am closer to a Compassionate Social and fiscal conservative. Unfortunately Repubs are not there. Bush was the biggest spender. All they want to do is fund war and help the big corporations.

Agree with you partly. Bush was an antithesis of a Republican. In my view a republican is one who believes in small govt (fiscally), intelligent monitoring of all industries, strong national security, and strong family values. Even Reagan was a big spender if you see his presidency.

I think Social compassion should be linked to cash in hand. Once you become liberal in showing social compassion, there is no end to how much money you can spend, which then leads to a lot of economic problems.


Health care is too important to be left as is. The country will go bankrupt. I never said that Obama's plan was perfect. But it is something. It is a change. All republicans want is status quo. And that is nothing but disaster

Agree with you partly. Healthcare is very important. However, my view of reform is to start small and then spread. Start by identifying the issues and start tackling them one by one. Clinton tried Hillarycare in 1993 and failed. Obama has made the same mistake.

Where I disagree is the notion that country will go bankrupt if healthcare reforms are not done by yesterday. No. Country will go bankrupt if we implement Obamacare. Govt will not ever have the kind of money that will be needed to support it.

Example - When Medicare was started, it was started with a budget of $66 billion. In 2010, it will cost nearly $500 billion. Who would have thunk when Medicare was started that it's cost will go through the roof? But it did. Expect the same with Obamacare.

Medicare provides insurance to only those who are 65 years or above. Obamacare will provide insurance to everyone. Politician could not visualize then how high Medicare cost will go. What make you think politicians can visualize today how high Obamacare cost will go? Obama said that if we pass his stimulus, unemployment will NOT go above 8%. We passed his stimulus and unemployment went above 10%. Obama responded by saying he could not judge how bad the economy was. Why do you believe that Obamacare will cost the same that is being projected for it? When these politicians can mess with numbers in unemployment, don't you think they can mess with numbers in Obamacare?

That's why I say govt should never ever enter in health insurance business. Reforms are needed and govt should identify what is broken and start fixing it.
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Cover Point

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2010, 10:58:08 PM »

Ok so what you are saying is that an inefficient Govt can run a cheaper department than a full fledged private company?

No. I am saying a govt can NOT even run that department properly, which has very low monetary effect on lives of Americans.


The first point is that USPS and Fedex are in different business. How many times do you see Fedex deliver regular letters etc. They are used only for expensive more important deliveries. Where you are willing to pay A LOT MORE for that extra service.

For regular mail (reliable .... but not necessarily critical) you will always use USPS.

You just made my point...

Why is there no other private service that provides regular mail services? Because federal govt provides that service for dirt cheap.

Why does federal govt provide this service for dirt cheap? I don't know why.

What's the result of federal govt providing regular mail service for dirt cheap? USPS always runs in loss.

Am I happy with the dirt cheap regular mail service that federal govt is providing through USPS? No. For example, in the recent snow storm in MD, USPS was shut down for 11 days. During these 11 days UPS and Fedex trucks were delivering their stuff in my apartment complex. How's that for customer service? I have to stand in line for 30 minutes to buy a book of stamps. Why? Because only 2 of 5 counters are open. Why? I don't know.

Would I pay 55 cents instead of 44 cents to a private company if they were able to provide regular mail services to be better than USPS? Hell Yes!!!!


You see what I am trying to say? When federal govt starts providing something for free or cheap, it immediately kills the private competition in that area because private company can not provide the same service cheaper than govt. In a capitalist economy, most services should be provided by private companies. Now don't think that I am saying federal govt should shut down USPS. When govt starts providing services it kills private competition in that field.

Also, when govt starts providing everything to you, it starts dictating things to you too. Slowly, it starts dictating how you should be living. Choices disappear, only dictates remain.

So, if federal govt runs USPS in loss, a service that has very little monetary impact, imagine what will happen if federal govt starts dispensing health insurance and kills private competition in this field and then runs health insurance like it runs USPS.



Coming to health care .... govt can do a lot of stuff cheaper. By using their own negotiation they can bring the costs down. They dont have to run Fedex or other health care plans out of business. They just have to provide competition.

Govt never has to do anything to run private business out of business. IT just has to enter that field.

Do you know of any area of large monetary impact on a citizen, where govt competes with private companies? You will be hard pressed to find an example. Now think why you will not easily find an example. The answer is that when govt enters a business field to provide competition to private companies, it does not provide any competition. It KILLS private competition.

It is US govt policy to not let monopoly be created in market, in any industry. By entering into market, govt does just that. It creates it's own monopoly.



Rednecks dont deserve the respect because they are ignorant. I dont mind debating with you since you atleast bring ideas that you have read about. I dont have to agree with your conclusions but can atleast respect that you do research.

Rednecks (or a vast majority of Republican cattle) are just ignorant. Lazy bums incapable or unable to do their own research  they just lap up all the crap fed to them by Fox News. They dont deserve respect.

Just keep one thing in mind. Rednecks may have the same view of you too. That you are ignorant. That you lap up all the crap fed to you by MSNCB, CNN etc. I'm sure you don't give a damn about that, but I'm just saying.


I will tell you one thing (I told WN once) from my own personal thinking I am closer to a Compassionate Social and fiscal conservative. Unfortunately Repubs are not there. Bush was the biggest spender. All they want to do is fund war and help the big corporations.

Agree with you partly. Bush was an antithesis of a Republican. In my view a republican is one who believes in small govt (fiscally), intelligent monitoring of all industries, strong national security, and strong family values. Even Reagan was a big spender if you see his presidency.

I think Social compassion should be linked to cash in hand. Once you become liberal in showing social compassion, there is no end to how much money you can spend, which then leads to a lot of economic problems.


Health care is too important to be left as is. The country will go bankrupt. I never said that Obama's plan was perfect. But it is something. It is a change. All republicans want is status quo. And that is nothing but disaster

Agree with you partly. Healthcare is very important. However, my view of reform is to start small and then spread. Start by identifying the issues and start tackling them one by one. Clinton tried Hillarycare in 1993 and failed. Obama has made the same mistake.

Where I disagree is the notion that country will go bankrupt if healthcare reforms are not done by yesterday. No. Country will go bankrupt if we implement Obamacare. Govt will not ever have the kind of money that will be needed to support it.

Example - When Medicare was started, it was started with a budget of $66 billion. In 2010, it will cost nearly $500 billion. Who would have thunk when Medicare was started that it's cost will go through the roof? But it did. Expect the same with Obamacare.

Medicare provides insurance to only those who are 65 years or above. Obamacare will provide insurance to everyone. Politician could not visualize then how high Medicare cost will go. What make you think politicians can visualize today how high Obamacare cost will go? Obama said that if we pass his stimulus, unemployment will NOT go above 8%. We passed his stimulus and unemployment went above 10%. Obama responded by saying he could not judge how bad the economy was. Why do you believe that Obamacare will cost the same that is being projected for it? When these politicians can mess with numbers in unemployment, don't you think they can mess with numbers in Obamacare?

That's why I say govt should never ever enter in health insurance business. Reforms are needed and govt should identify what is broken and start fixing it.

ok so if you are willing to pay more for private mail ... go for it. Same as if you are willing to pay for cadillac insurance plans go for it. Leave the govt option for the rest of us poor folk.

Point was that by USPS providing dirt cheap service did not put Fedex out of business. Similarly govt will not put other insurance out of business. It will provide competition. MUCH needed Competiton
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ruchir

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2010, 12:05:31 AM »

ok so if you are willing to pay more for private mail ... go for it. Same as if you are willing to pay for cadillac insurance plans go for it. Leave the govt option for the rest of us poor folk.

No no no... sir. You are again misunderstanding me.

There is no option of paying more for private mail because private mail does not exist, as you said earlier. For regular mail services, there is no competition for USPS. That is what I have been trying to point out. Govt kills competition.

I can't pay for a cadillac plan, I'm not a millionaire like you. What I am saying is that you may feel that the intentions with which govt plan is being started are noble. They may be, but the end result of govt plan will be disastrous for every american. With a govt monopoly in health insurance, even the poor folks will be ill served. That's my opinion.


Point was that by USPS providing dirt cheap service did not put Fedex out of business. Similarly govt will not put other insurance out of business. It will provide competition. MUCH needed Competiton

Well, I explained above how govt competition will KILL private insurance companies. Maybe you have a different idea. That's fine.

You correctly think that competition in insurance industry will be beneficial for consumers. That's correct, but IMO govt providing competition is not the way to go. Removing legal hurdles is the way. Let BCBS of North Carolina compete with BCBS of Maryland and you will rates in Maryland go down. That's the way to go.
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kban1

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2010, 03:16:31 AM »

Quote
What I am saying is that you may feel that the intentions with which govt plan is being started are noble. They may be, but the end result of govt plan will be disastrous for every american. With a govt monopoly in health insurance, even the poor folks will be ill served. That's my opinion.

Ruchir:

You are aware I am sure that the insurance industry itself is a legal oligopoly ? That it enjoys an anti trust exemption from the US govt ? (Your response in the 2nd half to CP indicates as much but its worth pointing out)

How do you think poor folks are served now ? How do you think people who can afford and have health insurance are served now ?

You are afraid of the government but the fact is that the free market companies are doing far worse --they are rationing care, denying claims and coverage, and doing so with impunity.

At least the government's track record with Medicare has been very good as many a doctor will tell you.

You compare Medicare costs when it was started with today's medicare costs not taking into account the fact

that Medicare started in 1960's. In the 45 years since costs have increased with medical costs on average running twice or more that of inflation. You also ignore new technologies and their impact on the cost structure. And finally, the expanded coverage of Medicare as well as the more number of people that use it (the baby boomer transition).

If you look at average insurance costs, they probably rose at the same rate or faster than they did under the govt run medicare program.

For example employer paid insurance costs increased by 119% in the last 10 years --which means that the actual cost of premiums rose even more since employees pay a small portion from their pockets.

You need to take some of these things into consideration before making the govt inefficiency, cost, deprivation of choice arguments.

Private insurance has become a profit making industry --an industry which pays more to its lobbyists and more on advertising than it does on the people they are supposed to insure. It is the biggest fat cat in the economy on par or close to the banking industry and it thrives on perpetuating the power and wealth it has accumulated.

Any industry whose unwritten code is "deny claims first" (as insurance industry insiders have revealed), is not an entity that should either be sacrosanct when it comes to credible competition, nor should it enjoy any level of anti trust protection. If anything we should look deeply into whether such a collection of entities with their motives be in charge of handling claims that determine life, death, and health for many individuals.

Just because most of us dont encounter their seedy side does not mean it doesnt exist. Denial of coverage and claims is a drain on the economy, its a drain on labor mobility, its disempowering to the labor force, and worse of all it completely misses the target it is supposed to hit -- HEALTH 
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 03:18:13 AM by kban1 »
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ruchir

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2010, 03:45:53 PM »

Ruchir:

You are aware I am sure that the insurance industry itself is a legal oligopoly ? That it enjoys an anti trust exemption from the US govt ? (Your response in the 2nd half to CP indicates as much but its worth pointing out)

How do you think poor folks are served now ? How do you think people who can afford and have health insurance are served now ?

You are afraid of the government but the fact is that the free market companies are doing far worse --they are rationing care, denying claims and coverage, and doing so with impunity.
If an individual has some beef with private insurance company WRT medical claims, at least he has an option for filing a lawsuit against the company and hope that courts will give him relief. If an anti-trust exemption comes in the way then that anti-trust exemption can be dealt with in the health insurance reforms, should it be found that such exemption is really hurting consumers.

If an individual has some beef with govt, where will he go? Universal healthcare is there in England. Right? How many cases of lawsuits can you find, where people filed a lawsuit against UK's universal healthcare and they won?

That's what I am saying. If a private company does rationing, deny claims, at least there is an option of getting relief from court. But can you dream of winning against govt in court?

Also, when you buy health insurance, at least you can take some personal responsibility of making an attempt to know what you are buying. When govt give you something, you don't have a choice. You have to take whatever they give you.



At least the government's track record with Medicare has been very good as many a doctor will tell you.
You are mistaken if you believe that Medicare has been very good. And it is the doctors who will tell you this...  unless you choose to believe MSNBC propa*a.

Medicare pays doctors less reimbursement that what they would receive from a private insurance company. That's why more and more doctors refuse to take Medicare patients every year. This results in Medicare patients having less and less doctors to go to.

Doctors say that doing paperwork for Medicare is a spider's web for them. They have to spend more time in Medicare paperwork, than paperwork for private insurance.

Now lets come to Medicare consumers. They are usually old people who are retired. Since Medicare started, it made it's consumers dependent and addicted to it. Now, 44 years later, old people have gotten used to it. Now they have no way out. So when old people are asked if they are happy with Medicare, of course they say they are happy. They have no other answer. But when they are asked if they are happy with services provided through Medicare, the answer is NO. Why? Because they have no choices in Medicare. They get what govt deems is good for them. They have very little numbers of doctors to go to.



You compare Medicare costs when it was started with today's medicare costs not taking into account the fact

that Medicare started in 1960's. In the 45 years since costs have increased with medical costs on average running twice or more that of inflation. You also ignore new technologies and their impact on the cost structure. And finally, the expanded coverage of Medicare as well as the more number of people that use it (the baby boomer transition).
From Medicare Wiki page:
Quote
Financial viability

Richard W. Fisher, President of the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas has remarked that in order to "cover the unfunded liability" for the Medicare program today over an infinite time horizon, "you would be stuck with an $85.6 trillion bill" which is "more than six times the annual output of the entire U.S. economy", and noted that "Medicare was a pay-as-you-go program from the very beginning."[50]

The present value of unfunded obligations under all parts of Medicare during FY 2007 over a 75-year forecast horizon is approximately $34.0 trillion. In other words, this amount would have to be set aside today such that the principal and interest would cover the shortfall over the next 75 years.[51]
This is why Medicare is so damaging to US and it's economy. It was meant to be a pay-as-you-go program but it isn't anymore. And this is the exact reason why Obamacare will be extremely damaging, in fact banrupting, for US economy.

Once started, you will not be able to shut down Obamacare. Medicare served only part of population and is today one of the biggest drain on US economy. Obamacare is designed to serve everyone. Imagine what it will turn out to be. That's why govt's entry in health insurance business is a bad bad idea.

You may think today that Obamacare will serve only and only the uninsured, but you will be wrong. The way Obamacare is being visualized and designed, it is intentioned to replace private insurance and become the single-payer system. If fact Obama is on record saying that he want a single payer healthcare system in US. You can easily find the video on Youtube.

So, if Medicare is damaging US economy, imagine what Obamacare will do.


From Medicare Wiki page:
Quote
Fraud and waste

The Government Accountability Office lists Medicare as a "high-risk" government program in need of reform, in part because of its vulnerability to fraud and partly because of its long-term financial problems.[55][56][57] Fewer than 5% of Medicare claims are audited.[58]
What is Obama doing to reform Medicare? Nothing. Obama himself said that Medicare is ridden with waste, so he planned to cut $500 billion over 10 years to fund Obamacare. I want to know if he KNOWS that Medicare is ridden with waste, why not sort that problem out?

My point is that Obama or Dems are not doing absolutely anything to reform Medicare and weed out waste and fraud. Yet, they think their Obamacare plan is so perfect that it will not have any waste or fraud? How come? Why not investigate Medicare first, learn the lessons on what fraud is happening, how it is happening and what can be done to not only remove it from medicare, but make sure that it is not present in Obamacare?

But No, Obama or Dems will not do that. I fail to understand why not, and that's why I am against Obamacare.


If you look at average insurance costs, they probably rose at the same rate or faster than they did under the govt run medicare program.

For example employer paid insurance costs increased by 119% in the last 10 years --which means that the actual cost of premiums rose even more since employees pay a small portion from their pockets.

You need to take some of these things into consideration before making the govt inefficiency, cost, deprivation of choice arguments.
Again, that's why we need reforms. Why do you want to replace one broken system with another broken system?

Inefficiencies of private industry can still be improved through smart regulations. How are you going to improve inefficiencies of govt? If govt could improve it's inefficiencies then Medicare would have been a benchmark.

I will never say that every private company work at it's best efficiency, but I will definitely say that a private company will work more efficiently that a govt department doing the same work because the existence of that private company depends on it's efficiency but existence of the govt department in not dependent on any thing. The most inefficient govt departments still operate at the same inefficient levels. Why add more of the same? Make the existing work better for everyone.



Private insurance has become a profit making industry --an industry which pays more to its lobbyists and more on advertising than it does on the people they are supposed to insure. It is the biggest fat cat in the economy on par or close to the banking industry and it thrives on perpetuating the power and wealth it has accumulated.

Any industry whose unwritten code is "deny claims first" (as insurance industry insiders have revealed), is not an entity that should either be sacrosanct when it comes to credible competition, nor should it enjoy any level of anti trust protection. If anything we should look deeply into whether such a collection of entities with their motives be in charge of handling claims that determine life, death, and health for many individuals.

Just because most of us dont encounter their seedy side does not mean it doesnt exist. Denial of coverage and claims is a drain on the economy, its a drain on labor mobility, its disempowering to the labor force, and worse of all it completely misses the target it is supposed to hit -- HEALTH
Pitamah sir ji, this is where reforms come in. What you have listed above is exactly what has to be reformed, isn't it? We don't disagree on that. We agree. What I am saying is that starting a govt health insurance will not be the best solution. It will be the worst.

Govt plan will kill private insurance, which will be absolutely no choices.

As shown by Medicare, govt health plan will be the biggest drain on economy.

It will be the biggest anti-trust exemption of all because someone unhappy with govt plan will have no where to go -- how do you plan to win against govt?

If today life and death is decided by private companies, tomorrow same life and death will be decided by govt employee. Will you feel any more comfortable with that? What changed between private employee and govt employee? Oh yes... it will be difficult to win a case against a govt employee.

Example -- British govt health care system recently refused cortisone injections. Reason? They said don't give the injection to reduce the pain if the cause of the pain is unknown. Can you believe that? Don't treat the symptom if cause is not know?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5955840/Patients-forced-to-live-in-agony-after-NHS-refuses-to-pay-for-painkilling-injections.html
Quote
The Government's drug rationing watchdog says "therapeutic" injections of steroids, such as cortisone, which are used to reduce inflammation, should no longer be offered to patients suffering from persistent lower back pain when the cause is not known.

Instead the National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) is ordering doctors to offer patients remedies like acupuncture and osteopathy.

Specialists fear tens of thousands of people, mainly the elderly and frail, will be left to suffer excruciating levels of pain or pay as much as Ł500 each for private treatment.

...

The NICE guidelines admit that evidence was limited for many back pain treatments, including those it recommended. Where scientific proof was lacking, advice was instead taken from its expert group.
Palin's Death panels, anyone?

Now you tell me, Pitamah, can any Britisher file a lawsuit and force NHS to give them cortisone injections? No they can't. If this was being done by a private company then there was a chance at least, that patients could file a case and get courts to force the private company to give reimbursement for the injection. But how do you fight against the govt?

That's my whole argument against Obamacare.
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Shukla

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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming - RIP!
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2010, 09:16:08 PM »



http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/19/news/economy/health_care_assumption.fortune/index.htm

NEW YORK (Fortune) -- At the bipartisan health-care summit scheduled for February 25th, President Obama is pledging to champion the voluminous bills passed by the House and Senate as the foundation for reforming the $2.2 trillion medical marketplace.

But each piece of legislation comes with a deadly expectation that could cost taxpayers dearly: the benevolence of corporate America.

"Many people say Americans will like the bills once they pass," says Edmund Haislmaier of the conservative Heritage Foundation. "But what they're more likely to get is a surprise in the form of hundreds of billions a year in extra spending."

That surprise comes from an assumption made by the Congressional Budget Office: that few employers will drop hold onto their plans even when the government offers generous subsidies and imposes penalties that are absurdly low.

Both the House and Senate measures lay out the subsidies that the federal government is obligated to grant lower-income and middle-class health-care consumers when the plans would go into effect in 2014. It's a big contractual entitlement, but it's likely cost is vastly understated.

Let's examine the size of the subsidies. The House and Senate bills both set caps on the percentage of income Americans pay for premiums. They also subsidize the out-of-pocket costs of deductibles and co-pays.

Since the plans are quite similar, we'll use the one in the House legislation. For a family of four, the bill puts a limit of between 3% and 12% of income from $20,500 to $82,000 a year on a sliding scale. The lower a family's income, the higher the share paid by the taxpayer.

For a household in the middle of America's income spectrum, earning $61,500, the CBO reckons that the average yearly premiums and out-of-pocket costs for a family policy will reach $20,500 by 2016. When the plans are fully implemented, the family is obligated to cover $10,500, and the government pays the balance of $10,000. For a family making around $40,000 the government contributes even more -- around $19,000.

The CBO projects that these subsidies will cost $93 billion in 2016. But that assumes that just 29 million Americans collect them, and that the number of people covered by their employers actually increases. And that number is likely to decrease sharply.

Why? Here's where the fatal flaw comes in. Companies that drop their plans face relatively minor penalties under the provision that's won the most Congressional support, an annual fine of $750 per worker.

Most big industrial companies are already paying around $15,000 per family in health-care costs. Hence, they could shoulder the fine and reduce their costs by 95%, simply by dumping their workers into the subsidy pools the plans mandate.

Using the CBO numbers, the government's subsidy per person comes to $3,200 in 2016. Say just half of all employers cancel their plans, throwing 80 million Americans into the pools. That would cost an extra $256 billion.

But those workers would presumably get raises, since in a free labor market employers are likely to put what they now pay for health care into paychecks. The government would collect extra income and payroll taxes, as well as the yearly fine of $750. All told, the extra revenue from taxes and the penalty would harvest around $100 billion to partly offset the additional subsidies -- but only partly.

So the net extra cost would be $156 billion ($256 billion minus $100 billion). Meanwhile the total spending on subsidies would soar from the projected $93 billion to almost $250 billion, an increase of 170%. That's the $93 billion the CBO is already predicting, plus the additional $156 billion from the tens of millions of employees who would lose their corporate plans and receive subsidies instead.

The $250 billion represents a permanent, structural spending increase of 1% of GDP, and it's headed higher from there. Message to taxpayers: The House and Senate bills rest on a fatal assumption. Believe it at your peril.

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