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Author Topic: IPL 2009 - Match Thread 18 (DD vs RR) - Undercooked Rajasthan meet in-form Delhi  (Read 13515 times)

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Cover Point

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so what you mean is that today's match ... a team with multiple captains .. beat a team with NO captain (She=wag is actually a negative captain)
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keep-it-cool

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I think RR have two more games to play before Watto is available. One of them is against DC - does not matter if they lose that. The other one is very critical against CSK - these two are fighting for one slot.

But, with Watto in and Smith finally finding some form, how does this team look?

Smith
Asnodkar / Niraj Patel (I remember him playing a few good knocks last time)
Watson
Jadeja
Valtathy / random Indian batsman
Pathan
Mascara / Morkel
Warne
Rawat
Munaf
Kamran

Take that batting order any which way ...they could still have done with one better Indian bat ...and it may not be too late to get someone in (like Shaun Marsh suddenly came in last year).
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LosingNow

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Kaif?
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LosingNow

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Seriously, how bad can Kaif be?
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keep-it-cool

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But the good thing about RR is that unlike BRC who change teams every other day, these guys have largely kept the same group going despite some heavy losses. It has finally paid off.
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ramshorns

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Seriously, how bad can Kaif be?
That is not the way you look at things.  It is not as much as how bad Kaif can be as much as how much better can others get and contribute in that spot when given the chances.  Last year too Kaif's use as a batsman was very minimal and when you put the price tag into the mix I think it is a very easy call.  Warne as I said before sees the potential in the players he like and he gets them and backs them to death to come good for him the way it is supposed to be.
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LosingNow

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rhetorical question, Mr Kic!!
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LosingNow

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BTW, Kaif is still being paid his money
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keep-it-cool

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rhetorical question, Mr Kic!!

I lost you there
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ruchir

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Sehwag ... talks as if he has brains. The idiot has nothing. He should be no where close to captaincy. Let him play as a sidey batsman .... whatever he gives should be a bonus!

Shoo ..this captain won four games in a row!!! How much more evidence do you want? After all, one is bound to go by results.

Now hold on here. You are taking Aunty's rant, on her team losing, too seriously. Had DD won this game, Aunty would be tearing off her blouse, breaking into a mujra, and talking about giving a lap dance to VS.  ;D
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LosingNow

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rhetorical question, Mr Kic!!

I lost you there
I was not expecting an answer to the q "How bad can Kaif be?".. it was just figure of speech to emphasize his availability
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keep-it-cool

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rhetorical question, Mr Kic!!

I lost you there
I was not expecting an answer to the q "How bad can Kaif be?".. it was just figure of speech to emphasize his availability

But I did not answer :D
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WicketView

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I know this sounds completely weird and I have not watched this guy bat much ... so take this with a bucketful of salt. But, we have been playing Yuvraj for a while in tests, why not try Pathan in his place?
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cricket_news

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Smith and Pathan script remarkable win
28 April 2009, 6:32 pm



Rajasthan Royals 147 for 5 (Pathan 61*, Smith 44*, Mishra 3-34) beat Delhi Daredevils 143 for 7 (de Villiers 50, Vettori 29, Munaf 2-14, Mascarenhas 2-28) by five wickets

Scorecard and ball-by-ball details

How they were out



Yusuf Pathan was once again the hero for Rajasthan Royals

AFP

Shane Warne, at the start of the game, had tipped the struggling Graeme Smith to trigger a change in fortunes for Rajasthan Royals, and though he did meet his expectations, staying till the end, it was a monstrous blitz from Yusuf Pathan that blighted Delhi's unbeaten run in the tournament. Spin continued to play a major influence, as Amit Mishra rattled Rajasthan with a three-wicket burst to leave them reeling at 64 for 5. But the presence of a determined Smith exuded assurance, and the ability of Pathan inspired confidence, as the pair wasted little time, amid some fortunate moments, to leave Delhi shell-shocked after they had held the cards for much of the innings.

A target of 144 was a tricky one, but something Rajasthan would have backed themselves to reach after a laudable performance with the ball. However, they almost squandered the effort with a shoddy display by their top and middle order, who left their team staring at a fourth defeat before Yusuf Pathan, along with Smith, turned the tide.

Rajasthan were already pegged back by the time spin was introduced, as the chopping and changing of their opening combination continued to falter. Rob Quiney was pushed up the order, but didn't last long, trapped in front by Ashish Nehra in the fourth over. The inexperience among their young Indian recruits showed, as an impatient Swapnil Asnodkar was run out attempting an impossible run before Mishra sucked in Paul Valthaty - included to beef up Rajasthan's ailing batting line-up - who holed out at long-off.

The tactical break, yet again, favoured the bowling side as Mishra struck back with two wickets in the 11th over, deceiving both Ravindra Jadeja and Shane Warne, who had promoted himself ahead of Pathan, in the flight to put the tactic of leaving a trump card for the last facing the possibility of an embarrassment.

However, Pathan, in a performance reminiscent of his blitzkrieg in the Super Over against Kolkata Knight Riders, ensured that didn't happen, taking just two balls to get a look-in before unleashing his power. He first ended Daniel Vettori's enviable run, depositing him over deep midwicket off successive deliveries, and drilling one past him off the final ball to steal 19 in a match-turning 13th over. Not that Delhi were without an chance. Tillakaratne Dilshan missed an attempt to run Yusuf out in the very next over, and when 31 were needed off 21 deliveries, Sangwan spilled a running catch at long-on, again off Yusuf, palming the ball to the boundary to seal Delhi's fate. The next ball disappeared for six, spoiling Mishra's figures, and Nehra's next over saw two short balls dismissed with ferocity into the stands to hasten Rajasthan's win.

If Yusuf was brute force, Smith was quite the opposite. 19 runs in three innings did not bear testimony to his ability, and his determination to fight it out was well on display as he flicked, nudged, dabbed and swept to ensure the runs kept coming, though he kept his own natural game on hold, taking 14 overs to strike his second boundary. A combination Yusuf's power game and Smith's measured tenacity put Rajasthan back in contention after a disappointing start to the tournament.

Rajasthan's bowlers, led by Munaf Patel, had done an admirable job restricting Delhi to a chaseable score with a frugal display, mixed with variation and boosted by Warne's tactic of shuffling the attack. Though bowling hasn't been a major worry for Rajasthan, with disciplined performances in each of their three completed games, surviving an explosive top-order was expected to be a stern test.

However, a combination of poor shot selection and an ability to extract the most of the conditions gave them a genuine chance of ending Delhi's run in the competition. AB de Villiers and Daniel Vettori led the revival with an attacking 56-run stand which was put to an end by a dodgy decision against de Villiers, who was lbw to a ball from Warne that pitched outside leg. Despite, the setback,  Delhi continued to threaten, with Vettori and Mithun Manhas taking 25 off two overs from Warne and Kamran Khan. But Munaf swung the pendulum back Rajasthan's way with a wicket maiden - the wicket of Vettori - at the death.

Siddhartha Talya is an editorial assistant at Cricinfo



Source: India news from Cricinfo

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Cover Point

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Sehwag ... talks as if he has brains. The idiot has nothing. He should be no where close to captaincy. Let him play as a sidey batsman .... whatever he gives should be a bonus!

Shoo ..this captain won four games in a row!!! How much more evidence do you want? After all, one is bound to go by results.

Now hold on here. You are taking Aunty's rant, on her team losing, too seriously. Had DD won this game, Aunty would be tearing off her blouse, breaking into a mujra, and talking about giving a lap dance to VS.  ;D

nopes. I have never really thought highly of She-wag's brains. He always was an idiot. A very talented idiot. But idiot nonetheless. Ramji will vouch for that. I dont support someone just because he is from my state/city.
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LosingNow

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Sehwag ... talks as if he has brains. The idiot has nothing. He should be no where close to captaincy. Let him play as a sidey batsman .... whatever he gives should be a bonus!

Shoo ..this captain won four games in a row!!! How much more evidence do you want? After all, one is bound to go by results.

Now hold on here. You are taking Aunty's rant, on her team losing, too seriously. Had DD won this game, Aunty would be tearing off her blouse, breaking into a mujra, and talking about giving a lap dance to VS.  ;D

nopes. I have never really thought highly of She-wag's brains. He always was an idiot. A very talented idiot. But idiot nonetheless. Ramji will vouch for that. I dont support someone just because he is from my state/city.
Without sounding caste-ist/regionalist - he has "jaat buddhi".

My wife is from Saharanpur, she has told me that such a thing exists. Even Kapil suffered from some of this.
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LosingNow

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rhetorical question, Mr Kic!!

I lost you there
I was not expecting an answer to the q "How bad can Kaif be?".. it was just figure of speech to emphasize his availability

But I did not answer :D
oops, Rams did. Sorry
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ruchir

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Sehwag ... talks as if he has brains. The idiot has nothing. He should be no where close to captaincy. Let him play as a sidey batsman .... whatever he gives should be a bonus!

Shoo ..this captain won four games in a row!!! How much more evidence do you want? After all, one is bound to go by results.

Now hold on here. You are taking Aunty's rant, on her team losing, too seriously. Had DD won this game, Aunty would be tearing off her blouse, breaking into a mujra, and talking about giving a lap dance to VS.  ;D

nopes. I have never really thought highly of She-wag's brains. He always was an idiot. A very talented idiot. But idiot nonetheless. Ramji will vouch for that. I dont support someone just because he is from my state/city.

Oh, okay. So what you are saying is DD needs another captain, not necessarily an all powerful coach ('cause they have a nobody as coach).
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ramshorns

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Sehwag ... talks as if he has brains. The idiot has nothing. He should be no where close to captaincy. Let him play as a sidey batsman .... whatever he gives should be a bonus!

Shoo ..this captain won four games in a row!!! How much more evidence do you want? After all, one is bound to go by results.

Now hold on here. You are taking Aunty's rant, on her team losing, too seriously. Had DD won this game, Aunty would be tearing off her blouse, breaking into a mujra, and talking about giving a lap dance to VS.  ;D

nopes. I have never really thought highly of She-wag's brains. He always was an idiot. A very talented idiot. But idiot nonetheless. Ramji will vouch for that. I dont support someone just because he is from my state/city.
Yes I do vouch for it without any spec of a doubt. 
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Cover Point

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Sehwag ... talks as if he has brains. The idiot has nothing. He should be no where close to captaincy. Let him play as a sidey batsman .... whatever he gives should be a bonus!

Shoo ..this captain won four games in a row!!! How much more evidence do you want? After all, one is bound to go by results.

Now hold on here. You are taking Aunty's rant, on her team losing, too seriously. Had DD won this game, Aunty would be tearing off her blouse, breaking into a mujra, and talking about giving a lap dance to VS.  ;D

nopes. I have never really thought highly of She-wag's brains. He always was an idiot. A very talented idiot. But idiot nonetheless. Ramji will vouch for that. I dont support someone just because he is from my state/city.

Oh, okay. So what you are saying is DD needs another captain, not necessarily an all powerful coach ('cause they have a nobody as coach).

I would actually like a coach ... an all powerful coach making the decisions for DD ... since he is in the best spot to make them ... without worrying about the heat of the moment. Pending that I will accept a better captain ... maybe a vettori would do.
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ramshorns

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rhetorical question, Mr Kic!!

I lost you there
I was not expecting an answer to the q "How bad can Kaif be?".. it was just figure of speech to emphasize his availability

But I did not answer :D
oops, Rams did. Sorry
Yes I did.  Anything to do with Kaif most probably than not evokes a response out of me.  Weather one expects an answer is totally immaterial in such a scenario. :)
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ruchir

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Sehwag ... talks as if he has brains. The idiot has nothing. He should be no where close to captaincy. Let him play as a sidey batsman .... whatever he gives should be a bonus!

Shoo ..this captain won four games in a row!!! How much more evidence do you want? After all, one is bound to go by results.

Now hold on here. You are taking Aunty's rant, on her team losing, too seriously. Had DD won this game, Aunty would be tearing off her blouse, breaking into a mujra, and talking about giving a lap dance to VS.  ;D

nopes. I have never really thought highly of She-wag's brains. He always was an idiot. A very talented idiot. But idiot nonetheless. Ramji will vouch for that. I dont support someone just because he is from my state/city.

Oh, okay. So what you are saying is DD needs another captain, not necessarily an all powerful coach ('cause they have a nobody as coach).

I would actually like a coach ... an all powerful coach making the decisions for DD ... since he is in the best spot to make them ... without worrying about the heat of the moment. Pending that I will accept a better captain ... maybe a vettori would do.

Now we are talking...

1. Why do you think the coach will not feel the heat of the moment? After all, he knows very well that he will be solely responsible for the strategic results, and more or less the final result of the games. He will know very well that his future employment WILL depend on the results of the game. So why in the world would you feel that he will not feel the heat of the moment, or that he may not be under pressure while devising strategies?

2. Why do you think he will be in a better position to devise strategies than a captain? Remember, in ODIs or Tests, the coach is usually sitting in a room with TV to follow the game. There he sees what the commentators see - the birds eye views of the field. So, there can be an argument that he since he sees the bird's eye view of the field, and is a little away from live action, better field placing ideas can germinate in his brain as compared to the on-field captain's. Fine. But in a 20/20 game, the coach sits with the players in the dug out. I doubt if any TVs are kept in that area. If giant screen show the same action we see, then captain can see the same thing the coach sees. Point is, he sees the game from the save level as the captain. Since he is close to the action, he feels (probably) the same emotions as the captain does. So, why is the coach in any better position (in a 20/20 game) to devise better strategies than the captain?

3. You may say that for a 20/20 game, the coach will be selected based on his strategic acumen. Fine. So we have a strategically brilliant coach, who is all powerful, who is guiding the side form the boundary line. Obviously, he needs a person in the middle - the captain - spread his words around, let us say to execute his strategies. Now, the captain would usually put himself close to the pitch, so he can communicate with all the fielders. Question - How will the coach communicate with the captain?
   3A) With a wireless device - This is currently illegal.
   3B) Manually shout orders to captain - Very very cumbersome. Captain may not be able to hear the coach over the din of the stadium. Also, coach may lose his voice very soon. Then what? Hire a punjabi with loud voice as substitute?  ;D
   3C) Use a megaphone to shout orders - Possibly illegal.
   3D) Have his orders written on the giant screen so captain can read them - He he he... would take long to convey them to the operator of the board. Not feasible.
   3E) Use boundary fielders to convey orders to captain - This looks like the most feasible method. However, it is also very time consuming method. Towards the last 6-7 overs, field placing may need to be changed after every few deliveries. Passing orders through a chain will take extra time. Fines for finishing the overs late are killing in IPL. 1st offense = $20k on captain. 2nd offense - $200K on team. I don't think the captain or the team or even the franchise owner would like to pay such fine even ONCE, simply because it took the all powerful coach extra time to convey his orders to the on-field captain.
      3E1) Also, using a boundary fielder to convey the orders would mean that one fielder would have to be forcibly placed near the dug out. This means the captain/coach has to place one fielder there even if they don't want him. A very very bad idea if the team is trying to save the match.
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WicketView

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Sehwag ... talks as if he has brains. The idiot has nothing. He should be no where close to captaincy. Let him play as a sidey batsman .... whatever he gives should be a bonus!

Shoo ..this captain won four games in a row!!! How much more evidence do you want? After all, one is bound to go by results.

Now hold on here. You are taking Aunty's rant, on her team losing, too seriously. Had DD won this game, Aunty would be tearing off her blouse, breaking into a mujra, and talking about giving a lap dance to VS.  ;D

nopes. I have never really thought highly of She-wag's brains. He always was an idiot. A very talented idiot. But idiot nonetheless. Ramji will vouch for that. I dont support someone just because he is from my state/city.

Oh, okay. So what you are saying is DD needs another captain, not necessarily an all powerful coach ('cause they have a nobody as coach).

I would actually like a coach ... an all powerful coach making the decisions for DD ... since he is in the best spot to make them ... without worrying about the heat of the moment. Pending that I will accept a better captain ... maybe a vettori would do.

Now we are talking...

1. Why do you think the coach will not feel the heat of the moment? After all, he knows very well that he will be solely responsible for the strategic results, and more or less the final result of the games. He will know very well that his future employment WILL depend on the results of the game. So why in the world would you feel that he will not feel the heat of the moment, or that he may not be under pressure while devising strategies?
;D
Quote
2. Why do you think he will be in a better position to devise strategies than a captain? Remember, in ODIs or Tests, the coach is usually sitting in a room with TV to follow the game. There he sees what the commentators see - the birds eye views of the field. So, there can be an argument that he since he sees the bird's eye view of the field, and is a little away from live action, better field placing ideas can germinate in his brain as compared to the on-field captain's. Fine. But in a 20/20 game, the coach sits with the players in the dug out. I doubt if any TVs are kept in that area. If giant screen show the same action we see, then captain can see the same thing the coach sees. Point is, he sees the game from the save level as the captain. Since he is close to the action, he feels (probably) the same emotions as the captain does. So, why is the coach in any better position (in a 20/20 game) to devise better strategies than the captain?

3. You may say that for a 20/20 game, the coach will be selected based on his strategic acumen. Fine. So we have a strategically brilliant coach, who is all powerful, who is guiding the side form the boundary line. Obviously, he needs a person in the middle - the captain - spread his words around, let us say to execute his strategies. Now, the captain would usually put himself close to the pitch, so he can communicate with all the fielders. Question - How will the coach communicate with the captain?
   3A) With a wireless device - This is currently illegal.
   3B) Manually shout orders to captain - Very very cumbersome. Captain may not be able to hear the coach over the din of the stadium. Also, coach may lose his voice very soon. Then what? Hire a punjabi with loud voice as substitute?  ;D
   3C) Use a megaphone to shout orders - Possibly illegal.
   3D) Have his orders written on the giant screen so captain can read them - He he he... would take long to convey them to the operator of the board. Not feasible.
   3E) Use boundary fielders to convey orders to captain - This looks like the most feasible method. However, it is also very time consuming method. Towards the last 6-7 overs, field placing may need to be changed after every few deliveries. Passing orders through a chain will take extra time. Fines for finishing the overs late are killing in IPL. 1st offense = $20k on captain. 2nd offense - $200K on team. I don't think the captain or the team or even the franchise owner would like to pay such fine even ONCE, simply because it took the all powerful coach extra time to convey his orders to the on-field captain.
      3E1) Also, using a boundary fielder to convey the orders would mean that one fielder would have to be forcibly placed near the dug out. This means the captain/coach has to place one fielder there even if they don't want him. A very very bad idea if the team is trying to save the match.
This is a question CP has been strenuously avoiding answering. As far as the shouting stuff is concerned ... imagine the coach shouting from the sidelines:
"Can't you guys see that this batsman is having trouble with the inswinging delivery ....bowl a few more of those at him."
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Daredevils handed first defeat by Pathan inspired Royals
« Reply #143 on: April 29, 2009, 01:01:04 AM »

Daredevils handed first defeat by Pathan inspired Royals
28 April 2009, 10:59 pm



CENTURION, South Africa (Reuters) - Yusuf Pathan blazed his way to an unbeaten half-century to propel Rajasthan Royals to a five-wicket win over Delhi Daredevils in the Indian Premier League on Tuesday.

Pathan smashed 62 not out off 30 balls with three fours and six sixes as Rajasthan reached 147 for five to overhaul Delhi's 143 for seven with nine balls to spare.

It was second-placed Delhi's first defeat in four matches in this year's tournament.

Pathan and Graeme Smith shared an unbroken sixth-wicket partnership of 83 in 47 balls, with the South Africa captain contributing an unbeaten 44 after the Royals had slumped to 64 for five.

Pathan, who was dropped on 30, brought up his half-century in 26 balls as the holders claimed their second win of the competition to go fourth in the table.

Leg spinner Amit Mishra was Delhi's most successful bowler with three for 34.

Earlier, Delhi won the toss and elected to bat.

AB de Villiers (50) went to his half-century in 39 balls before being trapped lbw by leg spinner Shane Warne.

The South African, playing on his home ground, and New Zealand's Daniel Vettori (29) rescued Delhi after they tumbled to 49 for four.  Continued...



Source: Reuters: Cricket News

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Cover Point

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i am not avoiding anything here.

I think what you are not considering is that having an all powerful coach does not mean that now the captain does absolutely nothing. Come now .... there are shades of gray too.

Give the coach power ... let the captain follow his instructions on the ground. he can make small modifications per need and the coach can course correct frequently and send messages in from the sidelines or via a 12th man or other means.
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ruchir

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i am not avoiding anything here.

I think what you are not considering is that having an all powerful coach does not mean that now the captain does absolutely nothing. Come now .... there are shades of gray too.

Give the coach power ... let the captain follow his instructions on the ground. he can make small modifications per need and the coach can course correct frequently and send messages in from the sidelines or via a 12th man or other means.

Aunty, you are yet again deviating from your oft taken stance - coach should be all powerful, no one can override him, he devises all strategies, captain can only follow what coach decides. This has been your stance before the quoted reply.

About captain making small modifications - what will stop the captain from making wholesale modifications? I mean, if you give him the flexibility of making some modifications to the coach's strategy, he can surely stretch it to run the game he feels like running!!!! Who's gonna stop him, unless he is specifically told that he has no choice BUT to follow the coach's directions.

Shades of gray - How come the shades of gray are coming out now, suddenly? Where were these shades when you were blasting the captain for not being able to think because he is in the middle of the game? I didn't see you talking about the shades of gray then. Then, it looked like a complete blackwash (or whitewash, whatever you like).
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Cover Point

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Aunty, you are yet again deviating from your oft taken stance - coach should be all powerful, no one can override him, he devises all strategies, captain can only follow what coach decides. This has been your stance before the quoted reply.

About captain making small modifications - what will stop the captain from making wholesale modifications? I mean, if you give him the flexibility of making some modifications to the coach's strategy, he can surely stretch it to run the game he feels like running!!!! Who's gonna stop him, unless he is specifically told that he has no choice BUT to follow the coach's directions.

what will stop him? the knowledge that he will be sacked and someone else picked to do that job if he deviates. Same thing that stops a coder from coding what he wants and doing what he is told by his manager.  Coder can still make small decisions about how to code around certain loops but must take the overall direction from the manager.

Quote
Shades of gray - How come the shades of gray are coming out now, suddenly? Where were these shades when you were blasting the captain for not being able to think because he is in the middle of the game? I didn't see you talking about the shades of gray then. Then, it looked like a complete blackwash (or whitewash, whatever you like).

I have no idea what you mean here. are you disagreeing that there are shades of gray or are you saying something else? 
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teamindia

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Aunty, you are yet again deviating from your oft taken stance - coach should be all powerful, no one can override him, he devises all strategies, captain can only follow what coach decides. This has been your stance before the quoted reply.

About captain making small modifications - what will stop the captain from making wholesale modifications? I mean, if you give him the flexibility of making some modifications to the coach's strategy, he can surely stretch it to run the game he feels like running!!!! Who's gonna stop him, unless he is specifically told that he has no choice BUT to follow the coach's directions.

what will stop him? the knowledge that he will be sacked and someone else picked to do that job if he deviates. Same thing that stops a coder from coding what he wants and doing what he is told by his manager.  Coder can still make small decisions about how to code around certain loops but must take the overall direction from the manager.

Quote
Shades of gray - How come the shades of gray are coming out now, suddenly? Where were these shades when you were blasting the captain for not being able to think because he is in the middle of the game? I didn't see you talking about the shades of gray then. Then, it looked like a complete blackwash (or whitewash, whatever you like).

I have no idea what you mean here. are you disagreeing that there are shades of gray or are you saying something else?

No manager tells the coder how to code. the coders have to understand the process and its outcome. He may get help from analyst in form of flow-charts or algorithm but I don't think a coder can write effective code without understanding the process or at least the algorithm.

Now in a game of cricket the outcome of process has to be WIN and algorithm and flow-charts are batting, bowling, fielding and running between the wickets and overall strategy. The manager (coach) can only teach the captain (coder) and players on these skills the rest should be left on the captain to execute.

It will become a real problem if the manager is hell bent on coder to write a program in a particular way. 
 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 05:36:12 AM by teamindia »
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Cover Point

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Aunty, you are yet again deviating from your oft taken stance - coach should be all powerful, no one can override him, he devises all strategies, captain can only follow what coach decides. This has been your stance before the quoted reply.

About captain making small modifications - what will stop the captain from making wholesale modifications? I mean, if you give him the flexibility of making some modifications to the coach's strategy, he can surely stretch it to run the game he feels like running!!!! Who's gonna stop him, unless he is specifically told that he has no choice BUT to follow the coach's directions.

what will stop him? the knowledge that he will be sacked and someone else picked to do that job if he deviates. Same thing that stops a coder from coding what he wants and doing what he is told by his manager.  Coder can still make small decisions about how to code around certain loops but must take the overall direction from the manager.

Quote
Shades of gray - How come the shades of gray are coming out now, suddenly? Where were these shades when you were blasting the captain for not being able to think because he is in the middle of the game? I didn't see you talking about the shades of gray then. Then, it looked like a complete blackwash (or whitewash, whatever you like).

I have no idea what you mean here. are you disagreeing that there are shades of gray or are you saying something else?

No manager tells the coder how to code. the coders have to understand the process and its outcome. He may get help from analyst in form of flow-charts or algorithm but I don't think a coder can write effective code without understanding the process or at least the algorithm.

Now in a game of cricket the outcome of process has to be WIN and algorithm and flow-charts are batting, bowling, fielding and running between the wickets and overall strategy. The manager (coach) can only teach the captain (coder) and players on these skills the rest should be left on the captain to execute.

It will become a real problem if the manager is hell bent on coder to write a program in a particular way. 
 

the difference that i am suggesting is that who tells WHAT needs to be coded ... some kind of lead coder or the manager.
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ruchir

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Aunty, you are yet again deviating from your oft taken stance - coach should be all powerful, no one can override him, he devises all strategies, captain can only follow what coach decides. This has been your stance before the quoted reply.

About captain making small modifications - what will stop the captain from making wholesale modifications? I mean, if you give him the flexibility of making some modifications to the coach's strategy, he can surely stretch it to run the game he feels like running!!!! Who's gonna stop him, unless he is specifically told that he has no choice BUT to follow the coach's directions.

what will stop him? the knowledge that he will be sacked and someone else picked to do that job if he deviates. Same thing that stops a coder from coding what he wants and doing what he is told by his manager.  Coder can still make small decisions about how to code around certain loops but must take the overall direction from the manager.

I really really wonder what kind of turnkey solutions your company is providing.  ;D

A coder never ever ever codes based on what the manager wants. S/he codes based on what the 'end result' of the code should be, which is or should be clearly defined in the requirements. Remember one thing, a coder can not put even an alphabet out of place on the screen he is working on, that violates the requirements. If he does that, a change is asked to put it back in place.

The 'end result' in this case is a win. Do you think the captain will not be affected if the team loses? You think a captain will let the coach make moronic decisions and will execute them no matter what? I don't think so. Any captain worth his salt will think about the validity of the instruction he is getting from outside. You say a captain will be sacked if he deviates from the instructions and team loses. What about if he deviates and the team wins? What happens in that situation?

We have already seen RD, SG, and VVS sacked as captains because their sides were losing. Does that not go contrary to to your belief that a captain will not be sacked even if he keeps failing? Heck, RD did not even get to play this game against KKR. What does that say? To me, it says that the franchise are ready to take any decision in order to win, even if it means benching their icon player.


Quote
Shades of gray - How come the shades of gray are coming out now, suddenly? Where were these shades when you were blasting the captain for not being able to think because he is in the middle of the game? I didn't see you talking about the shades of gray then. Then, it looked like a complete blackwash (or whitewash, whatever you like).

I have no idea what you mean here. are you disagreeing that there are shades of gray or are you saying something else?

What I am saying is that you never talked about shades of gray before, while debating this issue. You never said that captain should receive only a general instruction and should have the flexibility of  changing it to suit the need. You have been very adamantly saying that the coach should be all-powerful, the captain should only follow his instructions because he does not have enough time to think. You never talked about any shades of gray that you have now popped out of your closet.
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keep-it-cool

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I know this sounds completely weird and I have not watched this guy bat much ... so take this with a bucketful of salt. But, we have been playing Yuvraj for a while in tests, why not try Pathan in his place?

This is his first class record (read as matches, in

35 matches, 36.95 average 4 centuries 8 half centuries

Not very impressive ...in the domestic circuit one should have an average of a bit more than 37. I dont know what Yuvi's average is ...maybe it is as poor ...but does not mean YP makes it. Badri, Raina (probably) should be ahead of him.

I dont know if this average is because of a poor start as a bowler or anything of that sort ...anyone who knows better can shed some light.
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Cover Point

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Aunty, you are yet again deviating from your oft taken stance - coach should be all powerful, no one can override him, he devises all strategies, captain can only follow what coach decides. This has been your stance before the quoted reply.

About captain making small modifications - what will stop the captain from making wholesale modifications? I mean, if you give him the flexibility of making some modifications to the coach's strategy, he can surely stretch it to run the game he feels like running!!!! Who's gonna stop him, unless he is specifically told that he has no choice BUT to follow the coach's directions.

what will stop him? the knowledge that he will be sacked and someone else picked to do that job if he deviates. Same thing that stops a coder from coding what he wants and doing what he is told by his manager.  Coder can still make small decisions about how to code around certain loops but must take the overall direction from the manager.

I really really wonder what kind of turnkey solutions your company is providing.  ;D

A coder never ever ever codes based on what the manager wants. S/he codes based on what the 'end result' of the code should be, which is or should be clearly defined in the requirements. Remember one thing, a coder can not put even an alphabet out of place on the screen he is working on, that violates the requirements. If he does that, a change is asked to put it back in place.

The 'end result' in this case is a win. Do you think the captain will not be affected if the team loses? You think a captain will let the coach make moronic decisions and will execute them no matter what? I don't think so. Any captain worth his salt will think about the validity of the instruction he is getting from outside. You say a captain will be sacked if he deviates from the instructions and team loses. What about if he deviates and the team wins? What happens in that situation?

We have already seen RD, SG, and VVS sacked as captains because their sides were losing. Does that not go contrary to to your belief that a captain will not be sacked even if he keeps failing? Heck, RD did not even get to play this game against KKR. What does that say? To me, it says that the franchise are ready to take any decision in order to win, even if it means benching their icon player.


Quote
Shades of gray - How come the shades of gray are coming out now, suddenly? Where were these shades when you were blasting the captain for not being able to think because he is in the middle of the game? I didn't see you talking about the shades of gray then. Then, it looked like a complete blackwash (or whitewash, whatever you like).

I have no idea what you mean here. are you disagreeing that there are shades of gray or are you saying something else?

What I am saying is that you never talked about shades of gray before, while debating this issue. You never said that captain should receive only a general instruction and should have the flexibility of  changing it to suit the need. You have been very adamantly saying that the coach should be all-powerful, the captain should only follow his instructions because he does not have enough time to think. You never talked about any shades of gray that you have now popped out of your closet.

apology accepted.

PS: you keep twisting things. Coder will code on the end result ... fair ... shown by the manager. Goals and process and steps defined by manager. No need to attack other people's company .... and we will not attack the federal govt. Since you are not a certified gangulian (yet) we will keep it civil :)
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ruchir

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apology accepted.

PS: you keep twisting things. Coder will code on the end result ... fair ... shown by the manager. Goals and process and steps defined by manager. No need to attack other people's company .... and we will not attack the federal govt. Since you are not a certified gangulian (yet) we will keep it civil :)

What? Just accepting the apology? Not commenting on my points?  ;D

Look, the manager does not fix what the result of the code will be. The end user fixes that in requirements. Agree? Manager simply prioritizes tasks and makes sure the environment is good for doing proper coding.

Manager defines the goal in the sense that he breaks the project into small tasks, define the timeline for for each task and takes status. That is not what coding is all about, right? Coding is about making sure that the application performs according to requirements.

The requirement in IPL is to win. The manager (coach) can tell the coders (players) what they need to do, but out in the field it is upto the coder to find the best way to write a code (strategy) that satisfies the requirement (win). Manager does not tell the coder what syntax to use, what loops to put, what select queries to write. All that is done by the coder alone.

Playing cricket is like writing that code. Just like a coder can not keep going back to the manager for frequent coding help (he will be fired), a cricketer too can not keep looking at the coach for help once the game has begun.

Hope the above was civil enough.  ;)
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Cover Point

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apology accepted.

PS: you keep twisting things. Coder will code on the end result ... fair ... shown by the manager. Goals and process and steps defined by manager. No need to attack other people's company .... and we will not attack the federal govt. Since you are not a certified gangulian (yet) we will keep it civil :)

What? Just accepting the apology? Not commenting on my points?  ;D

Look, the manager does not fix what the result of the code will be. The end user fixes that in requirements. Agree? Manager simply prioritizes tasks and makes sure the environment is good for doing proper coding.

Manager defines the goal in the sense that he breaks the project into small tasks, define the timeline for for each task and takes status. That is not what coding is all about, right? Coding is about making sure that the application performs according to requirements.

The requirement in IPL is to win. The manager (coach) can tell the coders (players) what they need to do, but out in the field it is upto the coder to find the best way to write a code (strategy) that satisfies the requirement (win). Manager does not tell the coder what syntax to use, what loops to put, what select queries to write. All that is done by the coder alone.

Playing cricket is like writing that code. Just like a coder can not keep going back to the manager for frequent coding help (he will be fired), a cricketer too can not keep looking at the coach for help once the game has begun.

Hope the above was civil enough.  ;)

the reason i am not commenting is that you are twisting things away from the point I was making. I have two choices

1) I can argue endlessly and keep making the same point. Will take a lot of time and is against my posting pattern
2) Treat you like a gangulian and respond as I do to them.  I do like you (no no dont go there  :evil4: ) so wont go there.

I was making a simple point. Someone can guide a programmer and tell them the goals to be accomplished and guidelines on how to do it. I am not saying that they would teach them how to code ... It could be another programmer (Captain). Or it could be a coach (manager).


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ruchir

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Aunty,

I am not twisting anything. I have consistently been saying that having multi captains or all powerful coach is not a good idea. It is you who now said that coach can guide the captain and captain can have flexibility on how to implement the ideas. To that I said that you have not made this point before.

If you have a programmer in your company who can not work independently, it is better to remove him otherwise he becomes a parasite on other programmers. If you have a captain who can't think independently or take correct decisions, it is better to remove him. That is exactly what BRC, KKR and DC have done.

You still haven't countered me on how the coach would communicate with captain, why coach is in a better position to devise online strategies (in 20/20), why coach will not feel the same heat of moment that captain will feel and therefore possibly take wrong decisions.
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RicePlateReddy

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If you have a programmer in your company who can not work independently, it is better to remove him otherwise he becomes a parasite on other programmers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_programming

;D
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Aunty,

I am not twisting anything. I have consistently been saying that having multi captains or all powerful coach is not a good idea. It is you who now said that coach can guide the captain and captain can have flexibility on how to implement the ideas. To that I said that you have not made this point before.

If you have a programmer in your company who can not work independently, it is better to remove him otherwise he becomes a parasite on other programmers. If you have a captain who can't think independently or take correct decisions, it is better to remove him. That is exactly what BRC, KKR and DC have done.

You still haven't countered me on how the coach would communicate with captain, why coach is in a better position to devise online strategies (in 20/20), why coach will not feel the same heat of moment that captain will feel and therefore possibly take wrong decisions.

i dont want the captain to take too independant decisions. He needs to make small decisions within the guidelines provided by the coach.  The coach should not have to communicate everything ball by ball. Those smaller adjustments can be made by the captain.  The larger strategy implementations should be done by the coach. So lets say there is a plan of bowling X, Y Z and things dont go per plan and changes have to be made ... those need to be made by the coach ... and communicated to the captain on the field ... via shouting or 12th man (or whatever legal means)
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WicketView

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So, now you are saying that the coach should plan out the strategy, and it must be his strategy that should be played out. Obviously, this question only arises if there is a conflict; else one expects both the coach and captain to avail of the best suggestion/strategy available whoever it might come from.

I think this could make sense when the captain is pretty bad, and the coach pretty good. Because that difference could outweigh the inefficiency of the 'decider' ;) not being able to direct proceedings every delivery. So, if you have a team with say some dumb (I will not name names to keep things under control) fool as captain, you should opt for this model.

 
On the other hand, if the coach is no better or worse; then this is a lose lose model. So here is where the qualifications of the coaches comes into question: and this is why I was asking about Buchanan' credentials. We have Bucha-everyone-should-play-both-handed-nan (honestly all that I remembered of Buchanan after his time in the Australian team are (a) his runins with Warne, and (b) his leaked letter that would surely have Ruchir actively typing.), Ray-(need I say more?) Jennings or Murray(cost my team a series) as coaches. These guys have given no evidence of being head and shoulders above the players. maybe they do things even more ridiculous than what a Sehwag/Bhaji/Sreesanth would think. So, why would I trust these guys?
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So, now you are saying that the coach should plan out the strategy, and it must be his strategy that should be played out. Obviously, this question only arises if there is a conflict; else one expects both the coach and captain to avail of the best suggestion/strategy available whoever it might come from.

I think this could make sense when the captain is pretty bad, and the coach pretty good. Because that difference could outweigh the inefficiency of the 'decider' ;) not being able to direct proceedings every delivery. So, if you have a team with say some dumb (I will not name names to keep things under control) fool as captain, you should opt for this model.

 
On the other hand, if the coach is no better or worse; then this is a lose lose model. So here is where the qualifications of the coaches comes into question: and this is why I was asking about Buchanan' credentials. We have Bucha-everyone-should-play-both-handed-nan (honestly all that I remembered of Buchanan after his time in the Australian team are (a) his runins with Warne, and (b) his leaked letter that would surely have Ruchir actively typing.), Ray-(need I say more?) Jennings or Murray(cost my team a series) as coaches. These guys have given no evidence of being head and shoulders above the players. maybe they do things even more ridiculous than what a Sehwag/Bhaji/Sreesanth would think. So, why would I trust these guys?

captains get picked for their stature rather than their captaincy skills. Or they may get picked for being a senior member  and they are in the team for their batting/bowling in the first place.

So the key is to pick the right coach. u have that flexibility. you can pick a coach by evaluating them on those skills.
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ruchir

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Aunty,

I am not twisting anything. I have consistently been saying that having multi captains or all powerful coach is not a good idea. It is you who now said that coach can guide the captain and captain can have flexibility on how to implement the ideas. To that I said that you have not made this point before.

If you have a programmer in your company who can not work independently, it is better to remove him otherwise he becomes a parasite on other programmers. If you have a captain who can't think independently or take correct decisions, it is better to remove him. That is exactly what BRC, KKR and DC have done.

You still haven't countered me on how the coach would communicate with captain, why coach is in a better position to devise online strategies (in 20/20), why coach will not feel the same heat of moment that captain will feel and therefore possibly take wrong decisions.

i dont want the captain to take too independant decisions. He needs to make small decisions within the guidelines provided by the coach.  The coach should not have to communicate everything ball by ball. Those smaller adjustments can be made by the captain.  The larger strategy implementations should be done by the coach. So lets say there is a plan of bowling X, Y Z and things dont go per plan and changes have to be made ... those need to be made by the coach ... and communicated to the captain on the field ... via shouting or 12th man (or whatever legal means)

Ok Aunty. Let us disagree to disagree here and talk about SG. So, what latest you have on him?
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