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ruchir

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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2008, 06:11:10 PM »

http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&tinput=ayan&country_ID=&trans=Translate&direction=AU

BTW, the word "ayan", according to this site means "Arrival", which makes sense because the hindi word with same meaning "Anaa" is kind of derived from "ayan".

Now, the word "Anaa" again has 2 meaning - Arrival and currency (like chaar anaa).
ruchir, why are you spelling anaa ( currency) & anaa( arrival) same way?
Isn't the correct spelling as below?
Aana: arrival &
anaa: currency

Also, the correct root word for arrival is not ayan it is ayana. Only in Hindi, the last sound if trimmed not in sanskrit. for example, it is Rama in sanskrit not Ram.

I am also not sure of the arrival meaning for aayan. IMO, Aayana is the correct sanskrit word and the word has meanings like journey, travel, yatra meanings. This spokensanskrit site doesn't seem to be very reliable because it seems to confuse hindi & sanskrit and I see many hindi words in that site.

Well, in Devanagari script (Hindi) "aana" and "anaa" would be written the same. If I write the true translation of this word, it would be "aanaa". It would be so because the word in Hindi consist of 2 sounds -> aa + na

The "aa" is actually the long A sound and the "na" is the combined sound of N + long A. So the correct spelling of "anaa" would be "aanaa" or "Anaa" (if you want to replace 'aa' with A). Whether you mean currency or arrival, the word "Anaa" is spoken phonetically and spelling wise (Hindi) exactly same.

This link might help: http://www3.aa.tufs.ac.jp/~kmach/kw_gdn-e.htm#transcription

Here is how the word "aanaa" (with either meaning) is written in Hindi: आना

Notice the two ' | ' symbols. They represent the long sound.

As for adding an "a" at the end of Sanskrit words, probably you are correct, but then I have grown up writing and hearing Hindi more than Sanskrit, hence the skipping of "a"  ;)
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flute

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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2008, 06:11:57 PM »

Actually prfsr got it right. I think people are wrongly breaking it up into chandra + yaan, it is actually chandra+ ayan i.e journey to the moon ( in telugu it did be chandrayana)

One indisputable evidence is Ramayan ( ramayana in telugu & sanskrit). Ramayana means Rama's journey. Rama + aayana( journey).

WN, no it is not about hindi or telugu, I am talking about sanskrit root sounds,words.
I know it is not hindi or telugu.. but your confusion is due to use of the same sanskrit word which has different meanings in Telugu and Hindi.
Telugu - Chandrayanam means journey to moon. Which is what you are linking everything back to.
Hindi - the intended usage of this word (by ISRO) is a craft or device or vehicle that takes one to moon.. Chandra-yaan NOT chandr-ayaan. (Ramayan  is Rama's journey or story of life.. it is not Rama-yaan  ..ram's vehicle!).

My colleague who is from Andhra and I grew up in Andhra.. and a couple of months ago I had the same debate/discussion with him on a variety of Sanskrit origin words that were used both in Telugu and Hindi but had different meanings/interpretations in Hindi and Telugu. They are escaping my mind now.. but as soon as they come back to me, I will post them.
WN, I am not linking it back to telug..I am not considering telugu at all here. I am mainly asking about sanskrit. I did not mention Chandrayanam anywhere, I am looking at it more from the perspective of Ramayana and the root word aayana therein. So, there is no confusion there.

on a related note, my only observation there is, one realisation grew on me in the last few years as I continue to improve my sanskrit thru gita & other hindu texts. I think surprisingly telugu is more close to sanskrit compared to hindi in terms of preservation of the original words, usage , pronounciation, meaning etc. I was really really surprised how easily I was able to break up and understand sanskrit words which at first glance seem to be alien.

coming back to chandrayaan, it is not clear yet if ISRO meant it to mooncraft, because based on the discussion here yaan seem to have both meanings vehicle & journey. I am also still not sure of the root word in sanskrit for yaan. My hunch is, just like ruchir & pankaj, it is derived from aayana ( journey).
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flute

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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2008, 06:13:46 PM »

http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&tinput=ayan&country_ID=&trans=Translate&direction=AU

BTW, the word "ayan", according to this site means "Arrival", which makes sense because the hindi word with same meaning "Anaa" is kind of derived from "ayan".

Now, the word "Anaa" again has 2 meaning - Arrival and currency (like chaar anaa).
This theory is more convincing "Arrival on Mooon"  :icon_thumleft:
Should change the name to chandraYan instead of Chandrayaan. By the way if anybody finds compelling arguments, please post.

http://www.isro.org/chandrayaan/htmls/about_chandrayaan.htm

Let us start from the beginning of why this question. The question Flute had, came up most probably because of ISRO's moon mission. Now, in English, ISRO is calling it "India's first mission to moon". This context would give more credence to "ChandraYan" - which would mean arrival on the moon. However, ISRO has been concentrating more on the spacecraft they have designed. They seem to be more excited about the spacecraft than the mission. Maybe because unless the spacecraft works, the mission won't succeed. So, from Spacecraft's perspective, "Chandrayaan" seems more appropriate name for the mission, since it relates to the vehicle that will fulfill the mission to the moon.

Now, we can't read the mind of whoever at ISRO came up with this hindi name, but chances are high that he probably was thinking of the spacecraft, when thinking of the mission name, rather than the mission itself.
Exactly.. ISRO's Chandra-yaan is a HINDI word NOT a SANSKRIT word. In Hindi, Yaan is a craft or device.. it is not the journey.
how are you so sure of that? ISRO, DRDO etc. are known to use many sanskrit words for various projects, weapons etc.
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LosingNow

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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2008, 06:18:56 PM »


on a related note, my only observation there is, one realisation grew on me in the last few years as I continue to improve my sanskrit thru gita & other hindu texts. I think surprisingly telugu is more close to sanskrit compared to hindi in terms of preservation of the original words, usage , pronounciation, meaning etc. I was really really surprised how easily I was able to break up and understand sanskrit words which at first glance seem to be alien.
I agree

Quote
coming back to chandrayaan, it is not clear yet if ISRO meant it to mooncraft, because based on the discussion here yaan seem to have both meanings vehicle & journey. I am also still not sure of the root word in sanskrit for yaan. My hunch is, just like ruchir & pankaj, it is derived from aayana ( journey).

IMO, the confusion is because you are going back to Sanskrit roots.

In Hindi, Yaan is a craft or device that takes you from one place to other. There is no other meaning in Hindi ...again don't go to Sanskrit roots.  ISRO's Chandra-yaan is a HINDI word. period. The intended use therefore is clear... the project is to build the craft that takes us to Moon.. not the journey to moon.
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ruchir

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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2008, 06:20:20 PM »

Hindi script of:

Yatra - यात्रा

Ayan - अयन

Yaan - यान
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flute

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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2008, 06:23:06 PM »

Quote
In Hindi, Yaan is a craft or device that takes you from one place to other. There is no other meaning in Hindi ...again don't go to Sanskrit roots.  ISRO's Chandra-yaan is a HINDI word. period. The intended use therefore is clear... the project is to build the craft that takes us to Moon.. not the journey to moon.
you are assuming too many things, first of, why are you sure it is hindi? also who told you the project is to build the craft and not the total mission to moon? it doesn't make sense, the mission chandrayaan is completed when the this craft goes to moon and orbits and completes it intended purpose.
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flute

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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2008, 06:23:43 PM »

Quote
Well, in Devanagari script (Hindi) "aana" and "anaa" would be written the same.


Ruchir,
what do you mean? in devanagari, we have the long A(aa) and short a(a) right?
as in a aa e ee u uu etc., no? or may be I am missing something here, let me know.
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flute

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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2008, 06:50:34 PM »


on a related note, my only observation there is, one realisation grew on me in the last few years as I continue to improve my sanskrit thru gita & other hindu texts. I think surprisingly telugu is more close to sanskrit compared to hindi in terms of preservation of the original words, usage , pronounciation, meaning etc. I was really really surprised how easily I was able to break up and understand sanskrit words which at first glance seem to be alien.
I agree

Quote
coming back to chandrayaan, it is not clear yet if ISRO meant it to mooncraft, because based on the discussion here yaan seem to have both meanings vehicle & journey. I am also still not sure of the root word in sanskrit for yaan. My hunch is, just like ruchir & pankaj, it is derived from aayana ( journey).

IMO, the confusion is because you are going back to Sanskrit roots.

In Hindi, Yaan is a craft or device that takes you from one place to other. There is no other meaning in Hindi ...again don't go to Sanskrit roots.  ISRO's Chandra-yaan is a HINDI word. period. The intended use therefore is clear... the project is to build the craft that takes us to Moon.. not the journey to moon.
WN, also, it is not about hindi or sanskrit or telugu. I am just perplexed by the word that all. Lets say it is indeed hindi, then I want to know the roots of that word, where did it come from, the etymology behind it. Also, what do you make of the word "Vayuyaan" that pankaj mentioned? if you are saying "yaan" is vehicle in hindi, can you give some references like in usage, is it a common word?
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LosingNow

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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #48 on: October 17, 2008, 06:54:47 PM »

Quote
In Hindi, Yaan is a craft or device that takes you from one place to other. There is no other meaning in Hindi ...again don't go to Sanskrit roots.  ISRO's Chandra-yaan is a HINDI word. period. The intended use therefore is clear... the project is to build the craft that takes us to Moon.. not the journey to moon.
you are assuming too many things, first of, why are you sure it is hindi? also who told you the project is to build the craft and not the total mission to moon? it doesn't make sense, the mission chandrayaan is completed when the this craft goes to moon and orbits and completes it intended purpose.
no I am not assuming things..

It is Chandra-yaan NOT Chandr-ayan. There is no such thing as  ayaan.

you are unnecessarily complicating things...and trying to split hairs with no useful end.

Most such missions/projects are named around a device/object... Insat-1A, Aryabhatta, Prithvi etc. Chandra-yaan is the device/vehicle (in this case).. the project/mission is to build and use it successfully for its desired purpose.

To a common man (who cares), we plan to build a vehicle to go to moon - Chandra-Yaan - and there will be a project/mission built around it which can be concurrently called Chandra-yaan too...because the key component of that project/mission is that vehicle!
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LosingNow

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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #49 on: October 17, 2008, 07:00:37 PM »

WN, also, it is not about hindi or sanskrit or telugu. I am just perplexed by the word that all. Lets say it is indeed hindi, then I want to know the roots of that word, where did it come from, the etymology behind it. Also, what do you make of the word "Vayuyaan" that pankaj mentioned? if you are saying "yaan" is vehicle in hindi, can you give some references like in usage, is it a common word?
The problem is you are trying to go to etymology.. the roots are in Sanskrit ..but by the time you get to Hindi the meaning and interpretation changes.

As for example.. coaches in trains are called Shayan-Yaan = Sleeping cars (not sleeping journey, not project sleeping ;D). I have never heard of Vayu-yaan. It could mean aircraft which is viman. Also, yaan is an esoteric word and not commonly used...as in I don't in coloquial conversation say that "main shayan-yaan or vayu-yaan or whatever-yaan se aa raha hoo". 
« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 07:12:41 PM by winningnow »
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flute

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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #50 on: October 17, 2008, 07:01:05 PM »

can someone find some hindi references for the word yaan? if it is hindi, what are the other usages? none of the hindi dictionaries online seem to have that word..in fact google doesn't throw up anything for yaan word. do we have a word like vayuyaan? if yes, what is its meaning?
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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #51 on: October 17, 2008, 07:09:24 PM »

Correct or not, WN's meaning is what ISRO has.

http://www.isro.org/chandrayaan/htmls/faqs.htm

1. What Is Chandrayaan-1
 
Chandrayaan-1 is a scientific investigation – by spacecraft – of the Moon. The name Chandrayaan means “Chandra- Moon , Yaan-vehicle”, –in Indian languages (Sanskrit and Hindi) , – the lunar spacecraft. Chandrayaan-1 is the first Indian planetary science and exploration mission.
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flute

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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #52 on: October 17, 2008, 07:10:50 PM »

Quote
In Hindi, Yaan is a craft or device that takes you from one place to other. There is no other meaning in Hindi ...again don't go to Sanskrit roots.  ISRO's Chandra-yaan is a HINDI word. period. The intended use therefore is clear... the project is to build the craft that takes us to Moon.. not the journey to moon.
you are assuming too many things, first of, why are you sure it is hindi? also who told you the project is to build the craft and not the total mission to moon? it doesn't make sense, the mission chandrayaan is completed when the this craft goes to moon and orbits and completes it intended purpose.
no I am not assuming things..

It is Chandra-yaan NOT Chandr-ayan. There is no such thing as  ayaan.

you are unnecessarily complicating things...and trying to split hairs with no useful end.

Most such missions/projects are named around a device/object... Insat-1A, Aryabhatta, Prithvi etc. Chandra-yaan is the device/vehicle (in this case).. the project/mission is to build and use it successfully for its desired purpose.

To a common man (who cares), we plan to build a vehicle to go to moon - Chandra-Yaan - and there will be a project/mission built around it which can be concurrently called Chandra-yaan too...because the key component of that project/mission is that vehicle!
I think you are right about the spacecraft name being chandrayaan. compared to all previous missions and also NASA mission, we seem to name the vehicle itself and not the mission.

eventhough yaan is not found anywhere online, it looks like in hindi it means vehicle. It makes more sense now to name the spacecraft itself as chandrayaan since that seems to be the norm all around the world.

in addition, yaan is probably derived from aayan/ayan etc. it doesn't sound like a middleeastern word.
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flute

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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2008, 07:12:50 PM »

Correct or not, WN's meaning is what ISRO has.

http://www.isro.org/chandrayaan/htmls/faqs.htm

1. What Is Chandrayaan-1
 
Chandrayaan-1 is a scientific investigation – by spacecraft – of the Moon. The name Chandrayaan means “Chandra- Moon , Yaan-vehicle”, –in Indian languages (Sanskrit and Hindi) , – the lunar spacecraft. Chandrayaan-1 is the first Indian planetary science and exploration mission.
yeah I saw it just now. Yet not sure if yaan is a sanskrit word though.
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ruchir

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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2008, 07:13:18 PM »

Quote
Well, in Devanagari script (Hindi) "aana" and "anaa" would be written the same.


Ruchir,
what do you mean? in devanagari, we have the long A(aa) and short a(a) right?
as in a aa e ee u uu etc., no? or may be I am missing something here, let me know.

Okay, let us go back to what you said earlier:

ruchir, why are you spelling anaa ( currency) & anaa( arrival) same way?
Isn't the correct spelling as below?
Aana: arrival &
anaa: currency

Now, here you made a mistake of giving different sounds to the words used for arrival and currency. The difference was "Aan" and "an". "Aan" gives the long A + N sound, example - Daan (donation). "an" gives short A + N sound, example - the name Madan.

Pankaj wrote is correctly here:

Aana : currency ( chaar aana)
AAna : arrival ( Mera aana dekhkar tum vyathit ho gaye)
aAyan as in Gaayan e.g. used in word PashravGaayan do convey the similar meaning

Notice that he has 2 "aa" in front of N. That gives the long A sound.

So, when I say "aana" and "anaa" are written same, what I am trying to say is that the Hindi word for currency and arrival is spoken, written and spelled the same way - "aana". If you were referring to either arrival or currency, then the spelling should have been "aana".

If you use any Hindi translator software, "na" or "naa" will be written the same - with the N + long A sound = ना

But in reality of Hindi language...

n = half N sound

na = N sound

naa = N + long A sound.

Example - The name Arun Lal. Notice the spelling of last name Lal. It has just just one "a" after the first "L". Now I used 2 different translator to write this word in Hindi. The first one gave me - लाल. The second one gave me - लल.

Obviously the first translator got the translated phonetics right. That is how it was intended to be pronounced in Hindi. But the second translator got the actual translation right. What does this show? The correct phonetics of the word Lal is Laal... putting the long A between two L. People spell their names differently and different software have different criteria of translating words. This is just to show that it is difficult to explain nuances of a language if people have not learnt it from childhood.

can someone find some hindi references for the word yaan? if it is hindi, what are the other usages? none of the hindi dictionaries online seem to have that word..in fact google doesn't throw up anything for yaan word. do we have a word like vayuyaan? if yes, what is its meaning?

What kind of reference are you looking for, for the word "yaan". There is no need to investigate. Those who have studied Hindi in school can tell you the meaning of the word (that is if you want to believe them).
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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2008, 07:29:59 PM »

Quote
What kind of reference are you looking for, for the word "yaan". There is no need to investigate. Those who have studied Hindi in school can tell you the meaning of the word (that is if you want to believe them).

miyan, ham bhi hindi pade hain ischool mein. My POV was, usually if it is not a common word and not used often, it will hold its original meaning for a longer time and will also be closer in meaning to its orginal word in sanskrit. also, if it is not common word, we often make mistakes in getting the correct meaning even in mother tongue. Many telugu words stump me many times and their original meaning surprises me. In fact, a few common words in my own mother tongue suddenly appear in new light ( for example it happened to me with sandhya, swati etc. do you know how difficult it is to define swati?). that is why wanted to see if there are any other usages/references. It probably happens to me because I never find out the meaning of a word and stop their. I always go to the root and get the origins and original meaning etc. nobody here is hindi pundit right? so, it is not about believing somebody!!

now, your original reference regarding aana is clear.
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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2008, 07:41:52 PM »

I found the below reference

Vayuyaan Paricharik : airhostess
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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2008, 07:45:10 PM »

Quote
What kind of reference are you looking for, for the word "yaan". There is no need to investigate. Those who have studied Hindi in school can tell you the meaning of the word (that is if you want to believe them).

miyan, ham bhi hindi pade hain ischool mein.
Don't know about your school.. but when I was learning Hindi in Rajahmundry .. we had a Hindi teacher from UP and another who had done "Hindi teaching training" but her native tongue was Telugu...who also had some Sahitya Pandit or something like that in Hindi and had done her MA thesis on Jayashankar Prasad...and was an eager and hardworking teacher. We as north Indians (who were relatively more exposed to our mother tongue) could tell that her Hindi knowledge was "bookish" and "forced"...and would use these "sanskritized" words that were never used in spoken or general Hindi (Nothing wrong with it, it would happen to a north indian person trying to teach telugu!).
The point is there is a lot of nuance in (any) language that cannot be learnt in school ..specially if the teachers dont have that as their native language and if it is not your native language.
Look at this case.. Yaan is such an obvious word meaning vehicle to anyone who knows and has grown up speaking Hindi  .. yet you are trying to find the etymological roots and derive its meaning through a bookish process. Interesting exercise.. to no end, imo.
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flute

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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2008, 07:59:27 PM »

Quote
What kind of reference are you looking for, for the word "yaan". There is no need to investigate. Those who have studied Hindi in school can tell you the meaning of the word (that is if you want to believe them).

miyan, ham bhi hindi pade hain ischool mein.
Don't know about your school.. but when I was learning Hindi in Rajahmundry .. we had a Hindi teacher from UP and another who had done "Hindi teaching training" but her native tongue was Telugu...who also had some Sahitya Pandit or something like that in Hindi and had done her MA thesis on Jayashankar Prasad...and was an eager and hardworking teacher. We as north Indians (who were relatively more exposed to our mother tongue) could tell that her Hindi knowledge was "bookish" and "forced"...and would use these "sanskritized" words that were never used in spoken or general Hindi (Nothing wrong with it, it would happen to a north indian person trying to teach telugu!).
The point is there is a lot of nuance in (any) language that cannot be learnt in school ..specially if the teachers dont have that as their native language and if it is not your native language.
Look at this case.. Yaan is such an obvious word meaning vehicle to anyone who knows and has grown up speaking Hindi  .. yet you are trying to find the etymological roots and derive its meaning through a bookish process. Interesting exercise.. to no end, imo.
agreed it is not the same as hindi speaking walas but then it is also not completely bookish because hindi is very common in many parts of AP and is used quite frequently in spoken form too especially in Hyd.  One other aspect is, it is possible that, if some hindi speaking hindi pandit used the same kind of language as that telugu speaking hindi pandit, you guys would probably have called it "suddh" hindi like Vajpayee.

anyway, yes I did not know yaan is such a common word in hindi. why din't you say so? you kept repeating it is vehicle without explaination and also did not provide any other references/ other usages etc. I spent half hour googling and finding some other similar words and now I am convinced eventhough I am still not sure of the roots of it.

As for it being to no end, beg to differ. you are probably one of those who stop with a meaning for a word and discussion closed and hence it might seem as "to no end". To a quite few on this thread, words like aana, ayan, ayana, yaan came out during discussion. You should see one of the links that Ruchir provided, a very interesting one.
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ruchir

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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2008, 08:44:09 PM »

Flute --

Those who speak primarily in Hindi, always use the word "yaan" when talking about a vehicle, be it an airplane or a car. The thing is, there is hardly anyone who speaks pure Hindi anymore. People, even illiterates, have adopted many English words in their common usage. Example - when you want to know time, you will ask in Hindi "Kya Time hua hai?". You will not ask "Kya Samay hua hai?". That is the basic difference in word usage. Example - If you listen to TV in USA, say political programs, most commentators will use the word "Pundit" or "Guru" as an adjective for "Expert". They will say "Political Pundits will say....." instead of saying "Political experts will say.....".

Anyways, to come back to the point of "yaan", yes it is a very very common word that is used mostly in books. That's the key point - it is used mostly in books, not in common spoken Hindi. In common spoken Hindi, it is substituted with the English name of the vehicle. Example - If some Hindi speaking person is talking about airplanes, he will not say "Vayuyaan". He will say "plane".

That is why I said, you know the meaning of the words if you have studied the language from childhood. Add to that - you have also used it in regular speaking. I am guessing that although you studied Hindi in your school, you probably did not use it as much in speaking or did not read many Hindi books. That may be the reason why you had doubts about usage of the word "yaan".
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flute

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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #60 on: October 17, 2008, 09:00:19 PM »

Flute --

Those who speak primarily in Hindi, always use the word "yaan" when talking about a vehicle, be it an airplane or a car. The thing is, there is hardly anyone who speaks pure Hindi anymore. People, even illiterates, have adopted many English words in their common usage. Example - when you want to know time, you will ask in Hindi "Kya Time hua hai?". You will not ask "Kya Samay hua hai?". That is the basic difference in word usage. Example - If you listen to TV in USA, say political programs, most commentators will use the word "Pundit" or "Guru" as an adjective for "Expert". They will say "Political Pundits will say....." instead of saying "Political experts will say.....".

Anyways, to come back to the point of "yaan", yes it is a very very common word that is used mostly in books. That's the key point - it is used mostly in books, not in common spoken Hindi. In common spoken Hindi, it is substituted with the English name of the vehicle. Example - If some Hindi speaking person is talking about airplanes, he will not say "Vayuyaan". He will say "plane".

That is why I said, you know the meaning of the words if you have studied the language from childhood. Add to that - you have also used it in regular speaking. I am guessing that although you studied Hindi in your school, you probably did not use it as much in speaking or did not read many Hindi books. That may be the reason why you had doubts about usage of the word "yaan".
that is true, I have difficulty reading hindi eventhough I do speak it regularly.
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Where the mind is without fear and the head held high;
Where words come out from the depth of truth;
Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way into the dreary desert sand of dead habit;
let my country awake.

achutank

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Re: what does Chandrayaan mean?
« Reply #61 on: October 18, 2008, 03:46:45 PM »

ths whole discussion is a big yawn

 :mblah05:
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there is more than meets the i
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