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achutank

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chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« on: August 15, 2008, 02:50:42 PM »

the pak cricket board must have been hired by the chinese or the chinese must be passing on these secrets aliong with the nucleaur bhelpuri mix they are sharing with the pakis

The Olympics’ age-old problem


http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news?slug=dw-gymnastsage081408&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


BEIJING – For a long time, elements of the Chinese government itself thought women’s gymnast He Kexin was born Jan. 1, 1994, which would make her 14 and too young to compete in these Summer Olympics.

Whether it was repeated mentions in the government-controlled media – including a new one uncovered Friday by the Associated Press – or on official gymnastic meet registration forms and websites, He was “this little girl” and a “new star.”

As recently as December 2007, in provincial gymnastics meets and news reports that covered it, she was a 13-year-old prodigy, too young for the 16-year-old Olympic age limit for gymnastics.

Then, suddenly, she wasn’t.

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Earlier this year China produced her passport that claimed she was born Jan. 1, 1992, making her old enough to perform a brilliant uneven bar routine and push China to the women’s all around gold medal.

The Chinese either got it wrong in 2007 or wrong in 2008. Considering 2000 Chinese bronze medalist Yang Yun later admitted on state television she was 14 that year, the reported ages of He Kexin and at least two of her teammates have aroused suspicion in nearly everyone except the powers that be – the International Gymnastics Federation (FIG) and the International Olympic Committee (IOC).

Both organizations accepted the new passport as fact, certified He and tried to cover their collective ears at all the complaints. Wednesday, the IOC even slipped a gold medal around He Kexin’s neck.

If the IOC had a modicum of decency and courage (don’t count on it), it would open an immediate investigation into whether it might take that medal right back.

If not for the of-age gymnasts who lost to the Chinese, then for He and her diminutive teammates, who – if they actually are old enough – don’t deserve suspicion tainting their accomplishment.

While the IOC undoubtedly is petrified of humiliating the host country in such a scandal, doing nothing merely humiliates the IOC and continues the belief that the organization is about money, not fair play.

For its part, the Chinese gymnastics delegation told the AP that the mistake was made by the media and provincial officials, not on the passport. Everything is on the up and up.

“It’s definitely a mistake,” Zhang Hongliang told the AP. “Never has any media outlet called me to check the athletes’ ages.

“We already explained this very clearly,” Zhang said. “There’s no need to discuss this thing again.”

Oh, but there is. The age of the Chinese gymnasts has overwhelmed the women’s gymnastics competition.

It’s not just the wild and often ill-timed accusations by USA Gymnastics team coordinator Marta Karoyli and her husband Bela Karoyli, who dubbed the Chinese “half people.”

It’s the snickers from disbelieving fans around the world who can’t come to grips with girls who look so young actually being 16.

The entire competition has lost credibility. Outside of China the focus has been on the birth dates, not the brilliance of the Chinese athletes.

The IOC and FIG can’t continue to bury their heads and hope it will blow away.

“The FIG has received confirmation from the International Olympic Committee that all passports are valid for all gymnasts competing in the Beijing Olympic Games,” FIG said in a statement.

“Stringent control measures are taken at the time of athlete accreditation for all official FIG competitions. Further, all athlete ages for the Beijing Olympic Games are consistent with the FIG records for all past FIG competitions.”

In an effort to protect the health of athletes whose bones and muscles have not fully formed, FIG years ago instituted the 16-year-old age minimum. To compete in these Games, a gymnast had to be born in 1992 or earlier.

A younger and presumably smaller gymnast would have an advantage in some disciplines due to their nimble nature. Nadia Comaneci scored seven perfect-10s in the 1976 Games when she was just 14.

Perhaps it’s believable that one person’s age could be so terribly confused. However, He is just one of the gymnasts with suspicious confusion.

The birth date of Yang Yilin was listed on official national registration lists posted by the General Administration of Sport of China website from 2004-2006 as a too-young Aug. 26, 1993, according to the AP.

On her passport her birth date is Aug. 26, 1992.

Jiang Yuyuan’s birthday was Oct. 1, 1993 as recently as a registration list for a 2007 competition. According to her passport she was born Nov. 1, 1991.

All three of those gymnasts produced high-scoring performances on the uneven bars that gave China a lead it would not relinquish in the women’s team all around. It was one reason Marta Karoyli stomped around mocking the Chinese to her American gymnasts, calling them “little babies” and later claiming one still had “baby teeth.”

Karoyli’s suspicions were never wrong, just the style, means and timing in which she and her husband expressed them. The fact that her team’s performance was not strong and she expanded the conspiracies to include Olympic officials who were supposedly distracting her gymnasts didn’t help (that accusation was refuted by USA Gymnastics itself).


No matter the strength of the allegations, the moments after the competition was not the time for Karoyli to throw a hissy-fit unbecoming of a team coordinator.


Gymnastics deserve better from everyone. This cloud of controversy isn’t fair to the Chinese, the Americans or anyone else, and it shouldn’t be played out in media quotes and old websites.

A real investigation with real explanations is long overdue. It’s time for the IOC to do more than count the money here.

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Cover Point

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2008, 04:02:35 PM »

all I ask is where are the commies? Why havent they attacked the 'WHITE' western media conspiracy yet?
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achutank

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2008, 05:00:26 PM »

all I ask is where are the commies? Why havent they attacked the 'WHITE' western media conspiracy yet?

:D wah kya chhoda hai, aap to archery team meh hona chaiyiye tha
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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2008, 06:01:03 PM »

all I ask is where are the commies? Why havent they attacked the 'WHITE' western media conspiracy yet?

:D wah kya chhoda hai, aap to archery team meh hona chaiyiye tha

Kabhi humse goli ki irony  poochte ho ... aur kabhi teer ki dhar. Hum kuch bol sakte hain ya ab humein model citizen banna padega :)
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achutank

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2008, 06:30:37 PM »

all I ask is where are the commies? Why havent they attacked the 'WHITE' western media conspiracy yet?

:D wah kya chhoda hai, aap to archery team meh hona chaiyiye tha

Kabhi humse goli ki irony  poochte ho ... aur kabhi teer ki dhar. Hum kuch bol sakte hain ya ab humein model citizen banna padega :)

model citizen ban jaaoge to mods kya karenge weekend par? aap jaise ho theek ho :)
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Cover Point

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2008, 06:42:23 PM »

all I ask is where are the commies? Why havent they attacked the 'WHITE' western media conspiracy yet?

:D wah kya chhoda hai, aap to archery team meh hona chaiyiye tha

Kabhi humse goli ki irony  poochte ho ... aur kabhi teer ki dhar. Hum kuch bol sakte hain ya ab humein model citizen banna padega :)

model citizen ban jaaoge to mods kya karenge weekend par? aap jaise ho theek ho :)

exactly. Midwest main waise hi bahut unemployment hai. Dont want to add to it :)
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pipsqueak

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2008, 10:33:21 PM »

looking at He and others, i find it hard to believe they are a day older than 13-14. ah, well!

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RicePlateReddy

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2008, 11:01:16 PM »

The Chinese government providing a passport to prove age is like a drunkard providing a high school diploma and claiming sobriety.
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prfsr

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2008, 01:51:09 AM »

The Chinese government providing a passport to prove age is like a drunkard providing a high school diploma and claiming sobriety.

You could be right, but what is the alternative?

On the Daily Show this week Jon Stewart had a good laugh at the lady that said that the girls were probably underage from facial measurements. Stewart had a good laugh at this, but the fact is that such measurements are fairly reliable predictors of age.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 01:53:53 AM by prfsr »
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2008, 02:32:44 AM »

The Chinese government providing a passport to prove age is like a drunkard providing a high school diploma and claiming sobriety.

You could be right, but what is the alternative?

On the Daily Show this week Jon Stewart had a good laugh at the lady that said that the girls were probably underage from facial measurements. Stewart had a good laugh at this, but the fact is that such measurements are fairly reliable predictors of age.

I don't know what scientific test can prove age, but if this were a normal country, the testimony of classmates in 3rd - 5th grade should go a long way.

The Chinese age adjustment is the modern equivalent of Eastern European gender adjustment. The latter seems far more diabolical to me.

Most of the US sprint team is likely continuing its rich legacy of drugs (for every person, one has to research the number of failed tests that were overturned on appeal). So the US media making a big deal about it is rich.



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prfsr

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2008, 11:29:34 AM »


I don't know what scientific test can prove age, but if this were a normal country, the testimony of classmates in 3rd - 5th grade should go a long way.

The Chinese age adjustment is the modern equivalent of Eastern European gender adjustment. The latter seems far more diabolical to me.

Most of the US sprint team is likely continuing its rich legacy of drugs (for every person, one has to research the number of failed tests that were overturned on appeal). So the US media making a big deal about it is rich.


Let's keep the media bias out of this. I don't want to fall in the same trap as in the lip-synch thread. Let's also not get too pious here (he who lives in a glass house...)

The question is are the girls too young? To untrained eyes it appears so, and there is a trained person who says it is so. My point is that it is impossible to verify. Your solution is not realistic. First, the govt will allow no such thing. Second, these kids do not go to regular schools. IIRC they have special tutors that teach them around their training schedules. I am sure there are scientific tests that can be done that are neither realistic (privacy-wise) nor justifiable. 

So this is going to happen.

That other countries lie about gender or drug abuse is IMO irrelevant.
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2008, 04:19:38 PM »


I don't know what scientific test can prove age, but if this were a normal country, the testimony of classmates in 3rd - 5th grade should go a long way.

The Chinese age adjustment is the modern equivalent of Eastern European gender adjustment. The latter seems far more diabolical to me.

Most of the US sprint team is likely continuing its rich legacy of drugs (for every person, one has to research the number of failed tests that were overturned on appeal). So the US media making a big deal about it is rich.


Let's keep the media bias out of this. I don't want to fall in the same trap as in the lip-synch thread. Let's also not get too pious here (he who lives in a glass house...)

I am puzzled about what the piousness comment implies. The US officialdom making a big deal about suits the glass house metaphor, not my comment. Cheating is rampant in professional sports and the US have made a fine-art of it (baseball, athletics, cycling etc.) This is different from the accusation of bias on the other thread -- where some of us were pointing to the child being the victim, than any judgement about double standards. To their credit, the US gymnasts themselves were pretty decent about it even though the media was baying for comments from them.

Quote
The question is are the girls too young? To untrained eyes it appears so, and there is a trained person who says it is so. My point is that it is impossible to verify. Your solution is not realistic. First, the govt will allow no such thing. Second, these kids do not go to regular schools. IIRC they have special tutors that teach them around their training schedules. I am sure there are scientific tests that can be done that are neither realistic (privacy-wise) nor justifiable. 

So this is going to happen.

Yes, obviously it is impractical at this stage - that is why I indicated that one recourse is to look at social peers of the athlete. I wouldn't assume that they were socially and educationally isolated throughout their lives as you have -- but as I mentioned, any sort of real verification along those lines (which would be practical in many countries including our country of birth) is rendered impossible because of the control imposed by the government.

Quote
That other countries lie about gender or drug abuse is IMO irrelevant.

Irrelevant concerning these girls' ages of course, but quite relevant to the issue of cheating in Olympic sports.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 04:23:11 PM by ShortSquatLeg »
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prfsr

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2008, 04:50:46 PM »

SSL
I meant that I cannot take the "he cheats, so why not me" arguments any more!!
Yes I am sure LOTS of US athletes cheat. I do not care much and the only reason I care (just a little) for the gymnasts is that these are underage kids and they are forced into grinding routines. I do not buy the "they are poor", or "their parents are responsible" nonsense - that reasoning would also justify sweat shops and flesh trade and many other despicable things. 

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gouravk

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2008, 05:03:01 PM »

Im not interested in Olympic games (except tennis, and except when India wins a medal  ;D)
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2008, 05:03:33 PM »

Oh, absolutely agreed that this cheating is reprehensible since the impact on these kids is enormous as you rightly point out. I didn't mean to condone or dilute it by pointing to what many US athletes engage in.
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pipsqueak

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2008, 03:20:28 AM »

i think the dental development should accurately predict the age - why not have a dentist study the teeth of these baby women?
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achutank

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2008, 11:59:11 AM »

CIS Beijing
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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2008, 05:31:21 PM »

i think the dental development should accurately predict the age - why not have a dentist study the teeth of these baby women?


Can you elaborate on this please ?

To my knowledge, dental development (age wise) can and does vary widely in individuals.
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pipsqueak

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2008, 12:35:37 AM »

i think the dental development should accurately predict the age - why not have a dentist study the teeth of these baby women?


Can you elaborate on this please ?

To my knowledge, dental development (age wise) can and does vary widely in individuals.

well, it is used in forensics  - maybe it can be applied here too? i am afraid i have no knowledge about this and was merely posing it as an option.

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prfsr

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2008, 12:43:39 AM »

i think the dental development should accurately predict the age - why not have a dentist study the teeth of these baby women?


Can you elaborate on this please ?

To my knowledge, dental development (age wise) can and does vary widely in individuals.

well, it is used in forensics  - maybe it can be applied here too? i am afraid i have no knowledge about this and was merely posing it as an option.




It can definitely provide developmental information and therefore be used to determine ages of children. The question is how accurately and can it really answer the question "is the person 16"?
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kban1

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2008, 08:05:06 AM »

i think the dental development should accurately predict the age - why not have a dentist study the teeth of these baby women?


Can you elaborate on this please ?

To my knowledge, dental development (age wise) can and does vary widely in individuals.

well, it is used in forensics  - maybe it can be applied here too? i am afraid i have no knowledge about this and was merely posing it as an option.




It can definitely provide developmental information and therefore be used to determine ages of children. The question is how accurately and can it really answer the question "is the person 16"?

prfsr:

I very much doubt it -- there are average ranges I suppose but individual development varies depending on  ahost of factors.

As an example, My boss' son started developing teeth at 3 months old. he is 14 months old and has 17 teeth --the rate of growth varies. I have seen age variation in emergence of permanent teeth too


Pip:

The use of teeth in forensics I believe is for identification -- dental imprints or dental records since everyone is supposed to have a different one.

Use of teeth to identify age accurately (to my knowledge) is not possible. Maybe Inoc or dlee can shed some light
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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2008, 03:33:04 PM »

Here is a post that claims to have evidence. Please go to the site for the contents -- there are pictures etc. that need to be seen. I have not really gone through the article, so do not take this post as an endorsement :)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-flumenbaum/scandal-of-the-ages-docum_b_118842.html
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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2008, 04:22:46 PM »

In some ethnic groups, looks can be very misleading. I watched the chinese girls do gymnastic, and I was shocked to see how these girls could be considered 15/16. My wife too read about this controversy and told me that determining age of Chinese just by looking at them can be very very misleading. She said that one of her co-worker is Chinese. Her true age is close to 40 but if you look at her you can't say she is even 20 year old. She looks that young!!! It has got to do a lot with the skin, the facial construction, the slim and short body structure etc. Many Chinese do "look" half their age.

This aside, I still find it hard to believe that some of the Chinese girl gymnasts were a day older than 11-12. At least they didn't "look" older than that to me.
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2008, 04:59:33 PM »

1. http://www.newscientist.com/backpage.ns?id=mg19926632.600

It is possible to determine the age of a living human with a considerable degree of accuracy up to the age of 60 or so, beyond which it becomes more approximate.

“It is possible to determine human age with a degree of accuracy up to the age of 60”
Tables are available detailing the time of eruption of the permanent and temporary teeth. As an example, the first permanent molars erupt at around 6 years of age, with second molars at 12, while the presence of four wisdom teeth usually means the subject is 18 years old or more.

Gauging the calcification of their roots may also help to arrive at a rough estimate of age. While tooth eruption can be externally and visually judged, observing calcification requires an X-ray. If the roots of all teeth are calcified the person would be over 25.

There are two other dental methods. One is Boyde's incremental lines - using the striae in tooth enamel, which change with age - and the second is Gustafson's method - which assesses six age-associated parameters of teeth. Both of these are useful for judging age up to 60 years.

An X-ray of the wrist in children, elbows and knees in adults, or skull and the vertebrae in older people can help to deduce age. That's because precise tables of age-related ossification - the hardening of the bone ends - are available which incorporate different races, dietetic and geographic factors. X-rays of the shoulder, hip, ankle and pelvis help to arrive at an even closer figure.


2. There seem to be numerous articles on determining age based on radio carbon levels in tooth enamel (this is because of unregulated nuclear testing from the mid 50s leading to radio carbon diffusion in the atmosphere!)
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7057/full/437333a.html

- Don't know if this can be done non destructively, or whether it holds with such high accuracy even in teens.

3. A pubmed search for relevant medical articles retrieves this (subscription needed to view entire article).
"Forensic Age Estimation and Ethnicity"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16782291

4. For Chinese, this may be the most relevant:
"Comparison of two methods of dental age estimation in 7-15 year old Malays
-- the error rates here for girls, seem to be overestimation by 0.75 years.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/search/article;jsessionid=40jmem0540qie.alexandra?title=dental+age+estimation&title_type=tka&year_from=1998&year_to=2008&database=1&pageSize=20&index=1

5. When it is the Chinese government we are talking about -- all the above are not required. (see The HuffPo disappearing link issue).

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kban1

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2008, 05:18:32 PM »

Thanks for posting this SSL

Now, here are my issues

Quote
Tables are available detailing the time of eruption of the permanent and temporary teeth. As an example, the first permanent molars erupt at around 6 years of age, with second molars at 12, while the presence of four wisdom teeth usually means the subject is 18 years old or more
.

My first permanent teeth arrived when I was around 10. So if they were to be testing in or around the 16 year threshold, would this test have accurately predicted my age ?

Quote
Gauging the calcification of their roots may also help to arrive at a rough estimate of age. While tooth eruption can be externally and visually judged, observing calcification requires an X-ray. If the roots of all teeth are calcified the person would be over 25.

And what if they are not all calcified as determined by the X ray ?

Given the variance in development, its  a given that by the time one is 25, all roots would be calcified.

But what about the teenage years ? Would my teeth had shown the same rate of calcification as most of my friends who had permannet teeth coming out when they were between 7 -8 ?

Quote
There are two other dental methods. One is Boyde's incremental lines - using the striae in tooth enamel, which change with age - and the second is Gustafson's method - which assesses six age-associated parameters of teeth. Both of these are useful for judging age up to 60 years.

This might be a more viable option on the face of it, although more details might be helpful in understanding whether they are just meant for the average sample or the universal population (inclusive of the variants).

Also, the safety and non intrusiveness of such tests matter -- several dental tests are used for forensics and are subject to procedures performed on the remains of humans rather than live humans. 

Quote
An X-ray of the wrist in children, elbows and knees in adults, or skull and the vertebrae in older people can help to deduce age. That's because precise tables of age-related ossification - the hardening of the bone ends - are available which incorporate different races, dietetic and geographic factors. X-rays of the shoulder, hip, ankle and pelvis help to arrive at an even closer figure.

Yes, this I am aware of.

Quote
2. There seem to be numerous articles on determining age based on radio carbon levels in tooth enamel (this is because of unregulated nuclear testing from the mid 50s leading to radio carbon diffusion in the atmosphere!)

Is this safe on a live human ?

Quote
4. For Chinese, this may be the most relevant:
"Comparison of two methods of dental age estimation in 7-15 year old Malays
-- the error rates here for girls, seem to be overestimation by 0.75 years.

This does seem relevant and applicable, although the error margin could be the difference between gold and sitting at home  :P
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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2008, 05:22:47 PM »

I could not read many of the quoted articles due to expired credentials - I did have access to medline last year which should be able to pull these all up.

Good point about the destructive testing. Also, I would take an error range of 0.75 years for the Chinese and give them the benefit of the doubt. Let them at least be 15  ;D


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Cover Point

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2008, 05:23:59 PM »

Thanks for posting this SSL

Now, here are my issues

Quote
Tables are available detailing the time of eruption of the permanent and temporary teeth. As an example, the first permanent molars erupt at around 6 years of age, with second molars at 12, while the presence of four wisdom teeth usually means the subject is 18 years old or more
.

My first permanent teeth arrived when I was around 10. So if they were to be testing in or around the 16 year threshold, would this test have accurately predicted my age ?


So I am right to say the following

"Beta abhi to tere doodh ke daant bhi nahin toote hain. Jaa Ganguly se daant lagwa ke aa... Buwahahahaha" etc etc.
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prfsr

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2008, 05:29:28 PM »

Sure. If you want your son to question his dad's maturity level  ::)  [although given his high cricket IQ, he probably has no illusions about you  ;D]
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kban1

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2008, 05:36:06 PM »

Thanks for posting this SSL

Now, here are my issues

Quote
Tables are available detailing the time of eruption of the permanent and temporary teeth. As an example, the first permanent molars erupt at around 6 years of age, with second molars at 12, while the presence of four wisdom teeth usually means the subject is 18 years old or more
.

My first permanent teeth arrived when I was around 10. So if they were to be testing in or around the 16 year threshold, would this test have accurately predicted my age ?


So I am right to say the following

"Beta abhi to tere doodh ke daant bhi nahin toote hain. Jaa Ganguly se daant lagwa ke aa... Buwahahahaha" etc etc.

Pyaare buddhau maharathi

Baccho se pit rahe ho, kuch sharam to karo

Jao abbajaan, ghar jao, absaar ka waqt aa bhi gaya, guzar bhi gaya  ::Whip::
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LosingNow

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2008, 07:11:13 PM »

Here is a post that claims to have evidence. Please go to the site for the contents -- there are pictures etc. that need to be seen. I have not really gone through the article, so do not take this post as an endorsement :)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-flumenbaum/scandal-of-the-ages-docum_b_118842.html
I love these Jan 1 birthdays ;D ;D
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prfsr

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Re: chinese goods : too young and gone too far
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2008, 07:13:57 PM »

Here is a post that claims to have evidence. Please go to the site for the contents -- there are pictures etc. that need to be seen. I have not really gone through the article, so do not take this post as an endorsement :)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-flumenbaum/scandal-of-the-ages-docum_b_118842.html
I love these Jan 1 birthdays ;D ;D

Yes, I noticed that too!!
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