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Author Topic: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23  (Read 15430 times)

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prfsr

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2008, 11:17:15 PM »

Well Moscow Times is not Western, is it?

If you agree that India is not Western, then read Anandabazar (Wednesday) - mentions broken teeth.

http://www.anandabazar.com/13bdesh1.htm

Since the official interview transcript was withdrawn I doubt you will get any direct quotes.


edit:

From the Hindustan Times editorial

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=153df1eb-b8de-497e-99be-8e381fc169bd


"According to reports, Lin Miaoke, the ‘cute’ seven-year-old who sang the national anthem, was actually miming. The real singer was another seven-year-old, Yang Peiyi. She missed the chance to perform live because of her — we hate to even say it — crooked teeth. "


« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 11:32:07 PM by prfsr »
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2008, 11:22:55 PM »

It is amply clear that the politburo member was the motivation for the change and he didn't like her teeth and the artistic director genuflected.
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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2008, 12:58:15 AM »

wow commies would support china EVEN for this? wow?
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pipsqueak

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2008, 03:37:22 AM »

i think it is pretty obvious what "flawless in image" refers to, as much as one may speculate over the semantics.

no, 7 year olds do NOT need to accept that they are not pretty enough but since it is just a superficial world, they should take it all with a pinch of salt. they are incapable of such mature emotions. 

as a general sentiment, yes, kids can be educated about what is really important in life. children largely reflect what they are exposed to - when i see third-graders bragging about the fancy cars their dads drive and the exclusive clubs their parents belong to, it tells me what has been pointed out to them as "achievements" in life either directly or indirectly by their parents. one ought to mould the child appropriately but not at the expense of personal remarks that could lead to a life-long inferiority complex.

expecting a child to deal with a fact that he/she is not pretty enough in a mature manner is a misplaced notion and is insensitive. no one has any business hurting an innocent child in the name of show business/national image.


« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 05:21:22 AM by pipsqueak »
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Cernunnos

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2008, 06:25:10 AM »

Well Moscow Times is not Western, is it?

If you agree that India is not Western, then read Anandabazar (Wednesday) - mentions broken teeth.

http://www.anandabazar.com/13bdesh1.htm

Since the official interview transcript was withdrawn I doubt you will get any direct quotes.


edit:

From the Hindustan Times editorial

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=153df1eb-b8de-497e-99be-8e381fc169bd


"According to reports, Lin Miaoke, the ‘cute’ seven-year-old who sang the national anthem, was actually miming. The real singer was another seven-year-old, Yang Peiyi. She missed the chance to perform live because of her — we hate to even say it — crooked teeth. "


What is the point of posting all these news articles which are referencing other news articles?
Why isn't there one direct quote from Chen's interview where he talks about "chubby face" and
"broken teeth", when they have quoted Chen saying other things?

The fact is it's the media which is describing the gory details of the poor girl's face,
and making it worse for her!

Once again the exact quote from the director was:
"The child on camera should be flawless in image, internal feelings, and expression,"

Flawless not just in image, but in feelings and expression! This is not any different from
other directors/producers from all over the world have a certain image in mind when
they seek a child actor for a particular role, and select only one candidate who
has all the qualities they are looking for, while rejecting the others who auditioned
for the role.
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prfsr

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2008, 11:48:43 AM »

Well Moscow Times is not Western, is it?

If you agree that India is not Western, then read Anandabazar (Wednesday) - mentions broken teeth.

http://www.anandabazar.com/13bdesh1.htm

Since the official interview transcript was withdrawn I doubt you will get any direct quotes.


edit:

From the Hindustan Times editorial

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=153df1eb-b8de-497e-99be-8e381fc169bd


"According to reports, Lin Miaoke, the ‘cute’ seven-year-old who sang the national anthem, was actually miming. The real singer was another seven-year-old, Yang Peiyi. She missed the chance to perform live because of her — we hate to even say it — crooked teeth. "


What is the point of posting all these news articles which are referencing other news articles?
Why isn't there one direct quote from Chen's interview where he talks about "chubby face" and
"broken teeth", when they have quoted Chen saying other things?

I am sure that you KNOW (more or less) what the point is -- but here are the reasons
(a) you mentioned that it was only the Western media that made up/hyped up this story.
(b) I think CLR and kban have argued convincingly that reasonable newspapers, Anandabazar included, have strict editorial standards that prevent ascribing of wrong information to people
(c) the direct quotes will NOT be available - they were removed from the original source, as per a MOSCOW newspaper.
(d) your whole argument is based on parsing semantics of words: while the translation to English can be tricky, surely not so many publishing media are regurgitating the same mistakes?
(e) Even if they are, it is upto the Chinese to correct the translation, not hurriedly remove the interview.
(f) There is something intellectually troubling about defending terrible actions by hiding under the bias of the West. Talk to someone from our Western neighbor -- everything under the Sun is explained that way, and frankly, I am tired of hearing it.


Quote
The fact is it's the media which is describing the gory details of the poor girl's face,
and making it worse for her!

Once again the exact quote from the director was:
"The child on camera should be flawless in image, internal feelings, and expression,"

Flawless not just in image, but in feelings and expression! This is not any different from
other directors/producers from all over the world have a certain image in mind when
they seek a child actor for a particular role, and select only one candidate who
hasall the qualities they are looking for, while rejecting the others who auditioned
for the role.

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flute

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2008, 02:18:30 PM »

i think it is pretty obvious what "flawless in image" refers to, as much as one may speculate over the semantics.

no, 7 year olds do NOT need to accept that they are not pretty enough but since it is just a superficial world, they should take it all with a pinch of salt. they are incapable of such mature emotions. 

as a general sentiment, yes, kids can be educated about what is really important in life. children largely reflect what they are exposed to - when i see third-graders bragging about the fancy cars their dads drive and the exclusive clubs their parents belong to, it tells me what has been pointed out to them as "achievements" in life either directly or indirectly by their parents. one ought to mould the child appropriately but not at the expense of personal remarks that could lead to a life-long inferiority complex.

expecting a child to deal with a fact that he/she is not pretty enough in a mature manner is a misplaced notion and is insensitive. no one has any business hurting an innocent child in the name of show business/national image.



beg to differ. A child should be moulded to have srength in all aspects of personality and that includes personal remarks from the world around them. I have seen many small kids( younger than 7 yrs) deal with personal comments with aplomb leaving the adults dumb. I was glad to see those kids respond with confidence on those occasions and I am of the firm belief that the current western trend of over protecting the kids and feeding them the Sata Claus reality is not correct. In fact, for kids , parents & family are the whole world and inputs and signals from them go a long way in moulding their opinion of a particular comment or incident and this is based on my own personal experience.

Of course , all this doesn't work if the family is not around to give thme perspective and a child is left alone to deal with everything on their own. In those scenarios, they might have scars or may turn bitter.
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Cernunnos

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2008, 07:22:12 PM »

Well Moscow Times is not Western, is it?

If you agree that India is not Western, then read Anandabazar (Wednesday) - mentions broken teeth.

http://www.anandabazar.com/13bdesh1.htm

Since the official interview transcript was withdrawn I doubt you will get any direct quotes.


edit:

From the Hindustan Times editorial

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=153df1eb-b8de-497e-99be-8e381fc169bd


"According to reports, Lin Miaoke, the ‘cute’ seven-year-old who sang the national anthem, was actually miming. The real singer was another seven-year-old, Yang Peiyi. She missed the chance to perform live because of her — we hate to even say it — crooked teeth. "


What is the point of posting all these news articles which are referencing other news articles?
Why isn't there one direct quote from Chen's interview where he talks about "chubby face" and
"broken teeth", when they have quoted Chen saying other things?

I am sure that you KNOW (more or less) what the point is -- but here are the reasons
(a) you mentioned that it was only the Western media that made up/hyped up this story.
(b) I think CLR and kban have argued convincingly that reasonable newspapers, Anandabazar included, have strict editorial standards that prevent ascribing of wrong information to people
(c) the direct quotes will NOT be available - they were removed from the original source, as per a MOSCOW newspaper.


Huh? China blocked the interview from their website on Tuesday, but by then the Times of UK and some Aussies papers reported the story! (you can check the chronology on news.google.com) So just because China blocked it from their own website, it disappeared from the laptops of the UK & Aussie reporters ? Please don't be ridiculous.

If the Times of UK and others can quote Chen so extensively, why on earth wouldn't they quote him saying anything about buck teeth??

It is obvious that the UK and Aussie press extrapolated "flawless in image, feelings and expression" to "her teeth were crooked". It shows that the real sickos here are these papers.

(Nothing new considering the malicious falsehoods they spread during Indian cricket tours)

The more responsible papers don't mention anything about poor Peiyi's teeth:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7556058.stm
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/sports/olympics/13beijing.html?ref=sports
(they only make a passing comment about her teeth, but never attribute it to the organizing committee)


Quote
(d) your whole argument is based on parsing semantics of words: while the translation to English can be tricky, surely not so many publishing media are regurgitating the same mistakes?
(e) Even if they are, it is upto the Chinese to correct the translation, not hurriedly remove the interview.
(f) There is something intellectually troubling about defending terrible actions by hiding under the bias of the West. Talk to someone from our Western neighbor -- everything under the Sun is explained that way, and frankly, I am tired of hearing it.

Sir, I think you are you hanging out with Nagma too much for your own good.
Now defending one Chinese action makes me a commie?  Where have I tried
to whitewash everything China does? This incident hardly compares to the more
serious offences the Chinese communist govt. does and for which it is rightfully
panned by the entire world's media.

That said, there is a grudging and condescending attitude in the West (of course
I use the term loosely) and will jump at anything to discredit non-Western.
To deny that is foolish. The propo*a about the child's teeth is just another
example.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 07:40:43 PM by Cernunnos »
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prfsr

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2008, 07:47:29 PM »

Sir,
You are listening to omuch to Nagma. I never called you a commie, or communist.

It is fine to have opinions about media sources, but you have conveniently grouped under "UK and Aussie press" Anandabazar Patrika, Moscow Times and Globe and Mail and the Star of Toronto.

Anyway I do not have much more to add -- the evidence is out there for people to draw their own conclusions.

PS: The Bengali CPM rag Aajkaal - the same paper that cannot say enough good things about China -disagrees with your view
http://www.aajkaal.net/report.php?hidd_report_id=100879
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 07:54:50 PM by prfsr »
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2008, 08:06:02 PM »

Peiyi had the voice and was supposed to perform, but was yanked at the last minute because her looks were deemed not suitable by a senior Communist Party official, Chen said.
- Los Angeles Times

The decision was made at the highest levels, Chen said.
"We had to do it," he said. "We'd been through several inspections. They're all very strict. When we rehearsed at the spot, there were several spectators from various divisions, especially leaders from the Politburo, who gave the opinion it must change."

- CNN


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Cernunnos

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2008, 08:42:54 PM »

Peiyi had the voice and was supposed to perform, but was yanked at the last minute because her looks were deemed not suitable by a senior Communist Party official, Chen said.
- Los Angeles Times

The decision was made at the highest levels, Chen said.
"We had to do it," he said. "We'd been through several inspections. They're all very strict. When we rehearsed at the spot, there were several spectators from various divisions, especially leaders from the Politburo, who gave the opinion it must change."

- CNN


Nothing new here.
Chen already said her image was one of the three considerations they had.

Let's accept that Chen didn't bring teeth into the discourse. That was the job of the gutter media.
 
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Cernunnos

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2008, 08:52:03 PM »

It is fine to have opinions about media sources, but you have conveniently grouped under "UK and Aussie press" Anandabazar Patrika, Moscow Times and Globe and Mail and the Star of Toronto.

I said the UK and Aussie press were the first to break the story and were the ones to give a qualitative description of the girl's face.

(I've not yet read Anandabazar due to font problems)
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prfsr

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2008, 08:57:41 PM »

There is also a great discrepancy about who replaced whom. My inference is that Chen rejected Peiyi and selected the older girl. The politician decided her voice was not good enough, forcing them to use Peiyi's voice. This happened 15 min before the opening.

edit: Yet another very credible Canadian source CBC - the counterpart of NPR, widely seen as independent and even Left-leaning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qPwtImzbEI
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 09:13:19 PM by prfsr »
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2008, 09:17:03 PM »

Peiyi had the voice and was supposed to perform, but was yanked at the last minute because her looks were deemed not suitable by a senior Communist Party official, Chen said.
- Los Angeles Times

The decision was made at the highest levels, Chen said.
"We had to do it," he said. "We'd been through several inspections. They're all very strict. When we rehearsed at the spot, there were several spectators from various divisions, especially leaders from the Politburo, who gave the opinion it must change."

- CNN


Nothing new here.
Chen already said her image was one of the three considerations they had.

Let's accept that Chen didn't bring teeth into the discourse. That was the job of the gutter media.
 

The point I was trying to make is the 'artistic expression' theory is bunkum. The music director is being forced to consider a politician's opinion.
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feverpitch

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #54 on: August 15, 2008, 01:52:25 AM »

without going into the morality of the issue, I have a strong feeling that this is another instance of typical wolf-pack reaction from white western media with a chip on their shoulders, trying, in some way or the other, to find fault with and denigrate the efforts of the chinese.

i mean, what a revelation: "shows once again how political the sponsorship of the Olympics is for the Chinese.''

Can you show any country that has not used the Olympics or some such other big ticket sporting event to give a kickstart to their economy, or project a particular image to the world. Check the next quotation: The Daily Telegraph urged organizers of the 2012 London Games to "bring some sanity and proportion back to both the opening ceremony and the games themselves.''

So its alrite if Londres can project a particular view [I guess that of the Kapital of kewl], but if either the view or the country don't match the affiliation of the reporter, then that country has had it... at least in the hysterical english language press -- that standard bearer of self righteous morality and sole arbiter of universal taste!
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feverpitch

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #55 on: August 15, 2008, 02:12:54 AM »

Sir,
You are listening to omuch to Nagma. I never called you a commie, or communist.

It is fine to have opinions about media sources, but you have conveniently grouped under "UK and Aussie press" Anandabazar Patrika, Moscow Times and Globe and Mail and the Star of Toronto.

Anyway I do not have much more to add -- the evidence is out there for people to draw their own conclusions.

PS: The Bengali CPM rag Aajkaal - the same paper that cannot say enough good things about China -disagrees with your view
http://www.aajkaal.net/report.php?hidd_report_id=100879

Sir, do you mean to say that the desi media can have any opinion of their own on anything, on which the phoren media have already expressed their opinion -- whether the topic is desi or international?

In particular with the bengali rags [and I'd roughly group them all together], outside of local politics, sourav [and sometimes cricket in general], mohun-east [note: not even football in general], it's all the same for them, even in this day and age of cheap air travel and mandatory representation at all big ticket world events for these peddlers of "news". In my view, they work under the assumption (either or both):

a. their typical readership do not keep abreast of other news sources and depend on them solely for their 'khorak'/ succor.

b. by faithfully reproducing the views expressed by the english language press, particularly that of the 'mother country' britain, they are able to cover their bases in so far as the curious/bored IT professional might venture to verify and validate the news.

to that extent, i must say they are remarkably spot on target! i mean, i am pretty much sure that the reaction in far less hysterical in even the non-english european sources... and non-existent elsewhere, at least before being made an issue by the zealousness of the standard bearers of objectivity and fairness [all self touted, of course]!
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pipsqueak

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #56 on: August 15, 2008, 02:40:57 AM »

Perfect young singer lip-synched in opening ceremony, says director
BEIJING 2008
Vivian Wu
Aug 13, 2008           
     
The picture-perfect young singer who enchanted viewers during the Beijing Olympics' opening ceremony on Friday was lip-synching a song performed by another girl who had been dropped from appearing because she was adjudged not attractive enough.
Chen Qigang, chief musical director of the extravaganza, disclosed in several interviews with state media that the little girl in the red dress, Lin Miaoke, lip-synched Ode to the Motherland and the voice belonged to another girl, Yang Peiyi.

"It was an unavoidable choice at the last minute," Mr Chen said, "and it was a very important and serious thing that involved national interests and an order from a state leader from the Politburo.

"It was about ... presenting the nation's music and cultural image, especially because it was as the national flag entered the 'Bird's Nest'.

"The girl shown on television had to have the most perfect voice and be perfect looking. It was fair to both Lin Miaoke and Yang Peiyi."

He said Miaoke, nine, and Peiyi, seven, were among the four finalists for the slot, but the opening event's chief director, Zhang Yimou, made appearance the top priority.

"I have an obligation to make this explanation to the Chinese audience," Mr Chen said.

Miaoke became a national star and gained legions of fans with her angelic smile and enchanting voice.

But it was not until Mr Chen gave the interviews and the report was picked up by the China News Service that Peiyi, a student at a primary school affiliated with Peking University, was revealed as the true singer.

In an interview on China Central Television cited by China News Service, Mr Chen said Peiyi possessed a "flawless voice" but had a chubby face and uneven teeth. And while Miaoke's voice was not as good, she had the perfect look, expression and body language the organisers were searching for.

Peiyi's teacher, Wang Liping , wrote in her blog that her pupil was a "clever child with indeed a beautiful voice, and painting and singing talents".

"She is a good child, kind-hearted, cute, friendly and low-profile, with a very calm heart. She loves performing Peking Opera and has participated in shows on International Volunteers' Day," Ms Wang wrote.

Footage of interviews with Mr Chen and the news report were widely distributed online, arousing heated internet debate. Some netizens sympathised with the organisers, but most were astonished by the "fake singing" and said the effort set a bad example by suggesting that - as one wrote - "pretty looks are more useful than true inner beauty".

One chat room contributor said: "It's harmful to both girls and it is discomforting to know that a girl was instructed to mime while the other had no chance to show her face due to an allegedly unattractive appearance."

Another said: "Why do we have to compromise honesty for these so-called national interests?"

An internet industry source said authorities ordered the article and interview footage to be pulled, and most searches for the content came up empty in the afternoon.

"We received two orders in a row [yesterday] morning, urging us to delete the article immediately and not to allow any publicity on this issue," the source said.

Wang Wei , spokesman for the Games organisers, also confirmed that the 29 giant footprint fireworks seen in the live broadcast of the opening ceremony were computer-generated. The fireworks were fired on the night, but viewers at home or watching the giant screens in the "Bird's Nest" were seeing computer graphics - only the last footprint was captured live.

 
http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menuitem.2af62ecb329d3d7733492d9253a0a0a0/?vgnextoid=bd6d7cd90e7bb110VgnVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&ss=China&s=News
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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #57 on: August 15, 2008, 02:48:57 AM »

He said Miaoke, nine, and Peiyi, seven, were among the four finalists for the slot, but the opening event's chief director, Zhang Yimou, made appearance the top priority.

as always, this a**hole had to try his brand of fascistic perfection!
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Cernunnos

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2008, 05:11:14 AM »

Peiyi had the voice and was supposed to perform, but was yanked at the last minute because her looks were deemed not suitable by a senior Communist Party official, Chen said.
- Los Angeles Times

The decision was made at the highest levels, Chen said.
"We had to do it," he said. "We'd been through several inspections. They're all very strict. When we rehearsed at the spot, there were several spectators from various divisions, especially leaders from the Politburo, who gave the opinion it must change."

- CNN


Nothing new here.
Chen already said her image was one of the three considerations they had.

Let's accept that Chen didn't bring teeth into the discourse. That was the job of the gutter media.
 

The point I was trying to make is the 'artistic expression' theory is bunkum. The music director is being forced to consider a politician's opinion.

Not sure if that was the point. The whole brouhaha was because the Chinese
publicly justified their decision by ridiculing the little girl's face,
and now it's conclusively proven that it was the wolf-pack media who
actually made the comment about her crooked teeth.

Producers interfere with directors all the time. Should anyone lose sleep over it?
Not me. This is my last post on the subject.

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prfsr

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2008, 10:58:23 AM »

I must say I am amused by the "conclusively proven" part. Pip quoted a *Chinese newspaper* quoting Chen

Quote
In an interview on China Central Television cited by China News Service, Mr Chen said Peiyi possessed a "flawless voice" but had a chubby face and uneven teeth.

Yes I realize only flawless voice is within quotes and no, I do not know why the rest were not.  But a Chinese newspaper directly ascribing lies to an important Chinese official?

It is also disappointing that the EXACT SAME reasons are used (have been for the last 25 years) to justify everything that the CPM has done. Think about this:

Nandigram was justified because
(1) It was not as bad, the biased media reported it this way. It is all a conspiracy by the biased Western media.
(2) This happens all the time. Think of people killed in armed struggles the world over.
(3) Children being killed is no big deal - how is it different from adults being killed? Children can understand the realities of life well enough
(4) The govt did what it had to do to project the best possible image of itself
(5) Why worry/argue about Nandigram when so many more important things are happening elsewhere?
(6) Is there a direct quote from the head of the Panchayat of Nandigram that anything bad happened? If not we do not believe anything happened.
(7) You keep harping on Nandigram. Have you seen the progress all around you?

No wonder we do not get anything better than CPM.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 12:33:20 PM by prfsr »
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prfsr

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2008, 11:07:34 AM »

without going into the morality of the issue, I have a strong feeling that this is another instance of typical wolf-pack reaction from white western media with a chip on their shoulders, trying, in some way or the other, to find fault with and denigrate the efforts of the chinese.

i mean, what a revelation: "shows once again how political the sponsorship of the Olympics is for the Chinese.''

Can you show any country that has not used the Olympics or some such other big ticket sporting event to give a kickstart to their economy, or project a particular image to the world. Check the next quotation: The Daily Telegraph urged organizers of the 2012 London Games to "bring some sanity and proportion back to both the opening ceremony and the games themselves.''

So its alrite if Londres can project a particular view [I guess that of the Kapital of kewl], but if either the view or the country don't match the affiliation of the reporter, then that country has had it... at least in the hysterical english language press -- that standard bearer of self righteous morality and sole arbiter of universal taste!


Ok, let us first admit
(1) YOU have a chip on your shoulders regarding the Western media -- why you use the afjective "white" in addition I do not know.
(2) you are justifying what many consider wrong using that great line "others do it too!"
(3) any expression of any opinion by any english media source that does not match your view can (will ?) be dismissed by your logic "either the view or the country don't match the affiliation of the reporter, then that country has had it... at least in the hysterical english language press -- that standard bearer of self righteous morality and sole arbiter of universal taste!"
 
Do  you see how your arguments match the Chinese and CPM party lines? And some other regimes between us and Europe?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 12:32:23 PM by prfsr »
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prfsr

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2008, 11:12:26 AM »


Sir, do you mean to say that the desi media can have any opinion of their own on anything, on which the phoren media have already expressed their opinion -- whether the topic is desi or international?

Yes I do, and I am truly sorry at your opinion of our papers on this special day.

Quote
In particular with the bengali rags [and I'd roughly group them all together], outside of local politics, sourav [and sometimes cricket in general], mohun-east [note: not even football in general], it's all the same for them, even in this day and age of cheap air travel and mandatory representation at all big ticket world events for these peddlers of "news". In my view, they work under the assumption (either or both):

a. their typical readership do not keep abreast of other news sources and depend on them solely for their 'khorak'/ succor.

b. by faithfully reproducing the views expressed by the english language press, particularly that of the 'mother country' britain, they are able to cover their bases in so far as the curious/bored IT professional might venture to verify and validate the news.

to that extent, i must say they are remarkably spot on target! i mean, i am pretty much sure that the reaction in far less hysterical in even the non-english european sources... and non-existent elsewhere, at least before being made an issue by the zealousness of the standard bearers of objectivity and fairness [all self touted, of course]!

I am also truly sorry that you group Ganashakti with Anandabazar. Not that Anandabar or any paper is always right or unbiased. I hope you see the dubious sound of your claim that papers are biased/useless as far as most things are concerned but not Sourav!!!
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 12:31:25 PM by prfsr »
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xiexie

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2008, 11:12:49 AM »

I don't understand all the moral indignation here. Afterall, our movies are all about lip synching to songs and also to dialogues of even child artistes. If some adults voice is considered great but not face and are made to remain in the background, why not kids? I think we are giving very little credit to 7 yr olds. A 7 yr old kid can very easily understand it and there is no reason to protect a 7 yr from ground realities when that is what is practiced in real world.

Also, why is all the sympathy going to the actual singer? how about the pigtailed gal who actually appeared? isn't her voice rejected? will it not scar her for the rest of her life? why only face will cause scar and not voice?



Iam not sure whether you have kids of your own or not or you are totally kidding in the above post.... One 7 year old appeared on national stage and would have been thought to be a great singer if this report had not broken, the other with a obvious talent was left behind the screen.

Well Iam not going to say anything else since your post implies that is fine to mess with kids...
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Cernunnos

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2008, 05:24:57 PM »

I must say I am amused by the "conclusively proven" part. Pip quoted a *Chinese newspaper* quoting Chen

Quote
In an interview on China Central Television cited by China News Service, Mr Chen said Peiyi possessed a "flawless voice" but had a chubby face and uneven teeth.


Prfsr,

Here:
http://blog.foolsmountain.com/2008/08/13/the-cruelest-insults/

Please go through this, the other links and comments.
It has the complete transcript, the video of the interview on youtube.

The whole "crooked teeth" story as reported in the western media, is smashed to bits.

I think there is nothing more to argue here.

Quote
This is what Voice of America has to say, in its Chinese language report:

Chen Qigang said the 9-year old girl Lin Miaoke was a stand-in on stage because the 7-year old real singer Yang Peiyi had a very fat face and crooked teeth, so her appearance was considered not good enough.

Excuse me! When and where did Chen Qigang say these hurtful words? For anyone having any doubt about this, please check out the video of Chen Qigang’s interview. The China News Digest provided a quite faithful transcript, which was translated in my previous post. Chen simply never described Yang in the way reported by VoA.

Also check Reply #117

Quote
*?First a google news search with keyword “teeth opening ceremony”, there are a lot of returns.

* Take out those who picked up from AP (”-AP”).

* Further limit with dates 8/12 to 8/13, when the “crooked teeth” meme first broke in the English world.

* Now the number of returns is more manageable. Reverse sort by dates. Look over the first 20 or so pages. The google spiders work pretty hard, and pieces from major news outlets rarely take more than a few minutes to hit the google news.

* This is the source in the English world, especially given the richness of its content that wasn’t fully picked up by others: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/olympics/article4512250.ece

* It credits china.com.cn for the picture. Now use baidu.com instead since its spiders on Chinese contents are more reliable. The keywords are “site:(china.com.cn) ??? ???”. The page was removed by china.com.cn. However there was a baidu cached page: http://tinyurl.com/62oyun. No mention of crooked teeth and chubby/fat face.

Conclusion: the meme of “crooked teeth” and “chubby cheek” was started by Jane Macartney and Ashling O’Connor of The Times (The UK newspaper).

« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 05:26:43 PM by Cernunnos »
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Cernunnos

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2008, 05:48:08 PM »

http://www.zonaeuropa.com/200808b.brief.htm#014


Quote
Chen Qigang: The director requested first and foremost adorable kids, and we identified about 10 children accordingly. We then listened to the singing of those kids, and not all of them had good enough voice to perform. The request from the director was that, first the appearance must be good, and of those, the one with the best voice and ability to sing should be picked. We went through a few such candidates through the process and they helped our music creation effort tremendously.

The first kid was about 10 years old. She contributed the most towards the preparation stage of this part of the performance. All the early practice runs were based on her recorded singing. But the director felt she was not the best visual for the scene. She was considered somewhat older than envisioned, a bit adolescent that is. So regrettably she was dropped. We then focused on searching through younger kids. The age criteria was to find someone about 7 years old. A number of them were selected, including both Lin Miaoke and Yang Peiyi.

We went to the Central Broadcasting Radio Station to make recordings. It was felt afterward that Lin Miaoke’s voice wasn’t exactly suitable in terms of tone control, range and depth. In the end, we decided that Yang Peiyi should be the one to provide the voice. We thought it was in the national interest to put the one with the best appearance and expression on the stage. Lin Miaoke was a very good choice for this role. But in terms of the music, we all felt that Yang Peiyi had the flawless voice.

Interviewer: So the one appearing in front the camera was Lin Miaoke and the song came from Yang Peiyi?

Chen Qigang: That’s right. It was a last minute, tough decision. We went through multiple practices and reviews. We played Lin Miaoke’s recording during one joint practice. Many reviewers, particularly someone in the Political Bureau of the Central Committee [of the CCP], made comments that it must be changed. We had no choice.

Interviewer: This is the first time for us to hear this story.

Chen Qigang: We have a responsibility to explain this to the Chinese viewers. I think the viewers should be able to understand that, in the national interest, for the perception of the country, it was an extremely important and serious matter to present the flag [in the best possible manner]. We made a decision, which I think was fair to both Lin and Yang. We felt the coupling of a perfect voice with the best appearance produced the most optimal result. From Lin Miaoke’s point of view, she might not even have realized it. We had two recordings from both of them and they didn’t sound very different.

So where did Chen Qigang talk about the "chubby/fat face" and "crooked/uneven/buck teeth"?  Nowhere.  Go back and re-read the western media reports -- they are the ones who thought that she had those physical attributes.  Lin and Yang were among the final three candidates who were listed on the programme, and therefore it cannot be the case that they are not 'presentable' or could not sing. But today, the world knows Yang as having "chubby/fat face" and "crooked/uneven/buck teeth" and Lin as having no singing talents.  Well, who needs Politburo members when we have western media showering such 'tender loving care' on Chinese children? 
.
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2008, 06:13:46 PM »

Even if this western media 'consipiracy' theory has legs -- (i.e., the descriptions "chubby face" and "crooked teeth" being creations of the western media), it does not detract from the point that a 7 year old was shoved aside for a "prettier" face with the involvement of the seedy politburo.

Two wrong don't make a right, and no one is lauding the western media who have a cupboard full of skeletons. The point is that Chinese put a reckoned-prettier-face 7 year old as a front while the voice actually belonged to another 7 year old. Its one thing to say big deal "I don't care", but totally another to justify this under the flimsy garb of 'artistic expression'.

That expression 'lipstick on a pig': Tibet, protests and journo handling, this gross image paranoia -- well this Beijing Olympics to me is nothing more than plastic surgery and liposuction on a pot-bellied pig on a trampoline.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 06:29:30 PM by ShortSquatLeg »
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prfsr

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2008, 07:07:06 PM »

Ceru,
Fine. I have read what the blog says. In terms of weight, I would give more of it to a Chinese newspaper than a blog I know nothing about. So I still do not agree with the conclusively proved part at all but will admit there is some possibility of things being deliberately made up in translation.

Can you explain why the official interview transcript was removed? Could the youtube interview be a *different one*? It is conceivable that different media outlets asked the same questions to the director. I also find it surprising that there have been no corrections to the alleged fabrication *anywhere* in the Chinese media (in English). If there have been, someone please post them.

Anyway I regret getting into this parsing of what the director did or did not say and what the media did or did not exaggerate. My original objection was only because these were children and the switcheroo was done without informing them. I posted in response to Flute that I would be okay if this was the plan all along and had been indicated as such. As despicable as the western media's fabrication (if true) would be, it does not change that point.
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feverpitch

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2008, 10:01:34 PM »

Ok, let us first admit
(1) YOU have a chip on your shoulders regarding the Western media -- why you use the afjective "white" in addition I do not know.

I do. For far too many times have I seen misrepresentation by the same wrt India and other countries when it has been convenient for them to do so. The most recent case being the build up to the Iraq war.

(2) you are justifying what many consider wrong using that great line "others do it too!"

No. I'm just saying that any sporting event of such a magnitude is bound to have positive spinoffs for the host country. So why crib?

Especially when the British [who seem to be most conscious here] media's favourite country is about to host the games next time around and allow them to right all wrongs committed in the world ever using the games as a stage.

Especially when the current hosts were denied a legitimate chance to do so earlier by electoral malpractices including vote buying, that resulted in the penal colony of the late lamented British Empire getting a shot at boosting their economy! [which means that not only the poms, but their lackeys and illegitimate offspring too have had their full or will have it soon]

(3) any expression of any opinion by any english media source that does not match your view can (will ?) be dismissed by your logic "either the view or the country don't match the affiliation of the reporter, then that country has had it... at least in the hysterical english language press -- that standard bearer of self righteous morality and sole arbiter of universal taste!"

Nope. But I do at least try to be less trusting and presumptuous about the 'fairness' and 'balance' of ANY media source.


Do  you see how your arguments match the Chinese and CPM party lines? And some other regimes between us and Europe?

nope. because i have and do keep criticizing them with equal fervour. when the issues are right.... well mebbe... with the cpim... even the last part need not matter that much...  ;)
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feverpitch

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2008, 10:13:16 PM »

Sir, do you mean to say that the desi media can have any opinion of their own on anything, on which the phoren media have already expressed their opinion -- whether the topic is desi or international?
Yes I do, and I am truly sorry at your opinion of our papers on this special day.

Can I then, with ur permission and approval, hold this opinion about our papers on other days?  ;)

Quote
In particular with the bengali rags [and I'd roughly group them all together], outside of local politics, sourav [and sometimes cricket in general], mohun-east [note: not even football in general], it's all the same for them, even in this day and age of cheap air travel and mandatory representation at all big ticket world events for these peddlers of "news". In my view, they work under the assumption (either or both):
a. their typical readership do not keep abreast of other news sources and depend on them solely for their 'khorak'/ succor.
b. by faithfully reproducing the views expressed by the english language press, particularly that of the 'mother country' britain, they are able to cover their bases in so far as the curious/bored IT professional might venture to verify and validate the news.
to that extent, i must say they are remarkably spot on target! i mean, i am pretty much sure that the reaction in far less hysterical in even the non-english european sources... and non-existent elsewhere, at least before being made an issue by the zealousness of the standard bearers of objectivity and fairness [all self touted, of course]!
I am also truly sorry that you group Ganashakti with Anandabazar. Not that Anandabar or any paper is always right or unbiased. I hope you see the dubious sound of your claim that papers are biased/useless as far as most things are concerned but not Sourav!!!

1. I did not say: "that papers are biased/useless as far as most things are concerned but not Sourav!!!"
That part you've invented. All I said was that apart from some issues, they don't bother, or worse still, feel that there is a built in bias within their readership in favour of a particular form of the western opinion, which they can exploit to their benefit.

2. Having been an employee of the ABP group for some years I guess I can claim to some insider privileges that you've thankfully been deprived of. But ask CLR any day... he too has been an employee... But I do not want to use this as an excuse... just follow the ABP on any given hot topic, you'll find it's the only paper in bengali which skillfully, puts the views of all the opposing parties [understood to be biased] and presents them as news [unbiased and factual reportage] on the same page... yes i admit they are good... they are in fact scary...
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pipsqueak

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2008, 11:33:05 PM »

another article from SCMP with more quotes - SCMP wouldn't dare misrepresent facts plus they understand mandarin better than any random blogger - ha, like the youtube video cannot be doctored. we are talking media blackout here and an attempt at damage control. ;D


"Mr Chen disclosed in interviews that producers had pulled Peiyi, a seven-year-old Beijing girl with a "flawless voice", from appearing on stage because her "chubby face and uneven teeth" did not satisfy the  national interest in "presenting the perfect face with the most perfect voice"."

Lip-synch furore surprises director
Musical organiser defends revelation
 
 BEIJING 2008
Vivian Wu and Peter Simpson
Aug 14, 2008           
     
The music director of Friday's opening ceremony for the Olympics says he's surprised by the outcry over his revelation that producers had arranged for a girl to lip-synch a song sung by another child because she was supposedly unattractive.
But he also said "it's wise to speak out about it now".

Chen Qigang , chief music director of the extravaganza, said the event's directors, including filmmaker Zhang Yimou , decided to reveal the lip-synching after Lin Miaoke became a national star when she took centre stage in a red dress and sang a revolutionary song which, it turned out, was  recorded by another girl, Yang Peiyi .

Mr Chen disclosed in interviews that producers had pulled Peiyi, a seven-year-old Beijing girl with a "flawless voice", from appearing on stage because her "chubby face and uneven teeth" did not satisfy the  national interest in "presenting the perfect face with the most perfect voice".

The decision also involved intervention by a member of the Politburo of the Communist Party.

His remarks were quickly picked up by local media on Tuesday before a blackout on coverage was imposed hours later. Nevertheless, word spread on the mainland among people disappointed by the substitution and lack of transparency. Overseas media also widely reported the incident, creating an embarrassment to the Beijing Organising Committee for the Olympic Games and the  government.

But Mr Chen yesterday stressed that arranging the lip-synching was a group decision and defended his move to speak out.

"We didn't expect Miaoke to become so popular overnight and it would be a big embarrassment if Miaoke was shaped into a singing star, but ... later it was discovered that she had no musical talent," he said.

"This is a smarter way of letting the public know something that it will know sooner or later. But I don't think this thing was a big thing to start with."

Mr Chen, a French national, admitted he had come under pressure for speaking out, but the pressure was from the public's disappointment, which he guessed was "embarrassed that their beautiful dream of the patriotic song had burst".

He said he was also surprised to receive calls from many overseas reporters who assumed he was a dissident and saw the case as a human rights issue.

In response to the uproar, officials from the International Olympic Committee and Bocog defended the substitution as necessary for technical reasons. Bocog spokesman Sun Weide said the pre-recording was a combined decision by the artistic directors and broadcasters.

"There were a number of candidates to sing the song, and the artistic directors just picked the best voice and the best performer," he said.

Olympic Games executive director Gilbert Felli said the case had to be considered in the context of the opening ceremony and the complexity of staging 15,000 performers. "You have to make sure the performance and the song are at the highest level. It is a casting or a technical decision by the producer," he said.

He also likened the substitution to a sporting coach's decision to put one player on the bench so another could take the field.

"You can have different opinions, but sport is exactly the same," he said. "If your son is playing on a football team, suddenly the coach may decide that he's not playing, that he's going to stay on the bench.

"I think maybe on this one some people would believe that maybe it was not appropriate, but the others would have said it's fantastic because the performance was great. That's what it is in sport and in life."

Mr Felli added that the performance on Friday was "fantastic".

"We were very pleased with its outcome ... of one of the most complicated events to organise in the world," he said.

http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menuitem.2af62ecb329d3d7733492d9253a0a0a0/?vgnextoid=c504379900dbb110VgnVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&ss=China&s=News
 

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prfsr

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2008, 11:47:18 PM »

Hmm. The case gets stranger. This line "later it was discovered that she had no musical talent"
is weird - I thought she was among the top 10 singers and the bloggers said her voice was great as well.

I also do not understand the blanket ban on coverage.
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prfsr

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2008, 11:49:42 PM »

Fever
I will defer to you since you have firsthand experience. I am sure every paper has its bias but you insinuate that they manufacture news. If that happens frequently, I would be beyond disappointing.

Any comments CLR?

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Cernunnos

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2008, 08:07:32 AM »

another article from SCMP with more quotes - SCMP wouldn't dare misrepresent facts

SCMP is the same newspaper which made an unsubstantiated allegation that blacks
were banned from Beijing's bars, by quoting anonymous sources.
If I recall correctly, the story had no takers even in the West!

The reporters for that was Tom Miller and Peter Simpson.

Quote
plus they understand mandarin better than any random blogger -

The good thing about blogs which have a high volume of readership
is that there are others to cross-review it. Unlike what a Peter Simpson
may claim through his anonymous sources.


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pipsqueak

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2008, 09:04:04 AM »

another article from SCMP with more quotes - SCMP wouldn't dare misrepresent facts

SCMP is the same newspaper which made an unsubstantiated allegation that blacks
were banned from Beijing's bars, by quoting anonymous sources.
If I recall correctly, the story had no takers even in the West!

The reporters for that was Tom Miller and Peter Simpson.


SCMP ALSO posted this report - do you subscribe to SCMP or is your judgement of that paper based on what you've read on blogs? SCMP is not available for free on the web. The main report was under Tom Miller.  Incidentally, I can find enough blog references supporting that story!

As for no takers it the west, it was parroted by "The Age" for sure.I am sure google will reveal more mentions. anyway, that is irrelevant to me. Here's some more info but of course it is "west" reporting.

http://time-blog.com/china_blog/2008/07/one_world_one_dream_one_seriou.html

http://africa.reuters.com/wire/news/usnPEK22343.html

http://www.theage.com.au/world/fears-of-a-nofun-olympics-in-beijing-20080718-3hkb.html

Police deny ban on blacks

Tom Miller in Beijing
July 19,2008

Police in Beijing's popular Sanlitun bar district deny they are conducting a racist campaign ahead of the Olympics, as another bar owner revealed he had been ordered not to let in blacks.

"They made us sign and chop a document saying we would not allow black people in [during the Olympics]," the owner said. "But no one is willing to say so because we'll all get deported ... and have our business shut."

Asked yesterday whether they had told landlords not to let blacks in bars, an officer at the Sanlitun police station had a one-word answer: "No."

The bar owner said police had given landlords a list of dos and don'ts during the Olympics. "We simply can't let them in [during the Olympics], it's what I was told," he said.

"It's [the restrictions on blacks] definitely happening. It will all happen in 24 hours."


His revelation comes after the Post reported how another bar owner had been verbally warned by Public Security Bureau officers not to serve customers of Mongolian and African descent, while other bars had been ordered to sign chopped pledges to keep to curfews, not allow the illegal sale of drugs, and refuse certain customers.


"They [local police] call meetings, and everyone has to go, or else ... If you don't go, they'll come back and shut you down," he said. Further investigation found that not all bars in the newly revamped area known for its nightlife had been ordered to refuse black customers, suggesting police are targeting specific bars.

"Black guys can come in and drink as long as they have valid visas," another bar manager in Sanlitun said. "But we have been told to watch out for black guys acting suspiciously, such as constantly talking on their mobile phones. The aim is to crack down on drug dealing."

Tony Perkins, an African-American sports presenter for China Central Television, said he had not experienced any racism during his six months in China while working for the state TV station, but he said he was concerned by the bar owners' complaints.

"If this is policy, then it is a very bad policy - more so for a country holding an Olympics," he said.


Quote
Quote
plus they understand mandarin better than any random blogger -

The good thing about blogs which have a high volume of readership
is that there are others to cross-review it. Unlike what a Peter Simpson
may claim through his anonymous sources.

this is true only if the blog *IS* a widely read one and not something that crops up on a google search. every one and their dog has a blog these days.

as much as we may try to point out the hypocrisy of the "western" media, a rather sorry act has been committed and euphemisms of "flawless image", "national interest" does not make it any better.


« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 09:06:30 AM by pipsqueak »
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pipsqueak

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2008, 09:17:02 AM »

The article from SCMP about "ban on blacks"  - now why would Tom Miller and SCMP(with a vested interest in Olympics/china's image) fabricate stories like this? SCMP is oft accused of being very "pro-china" by the readers.


Authorities order bars not to serve black people
Tom Miller
July 18,2008

In our series looking at preparations for the Games, Tom Miller reports on plans to crack down on "undesirables" in the bars of Beijing

Beijing authorities are secretly planning to ban black people and others it considers social undesirables from entering the city's bars during the Olympic Games, a move that would contradict the official slogan, "One World, One Dream".

Bar owners near the Workers' Stadium in central Beijing say they have been forced by Public Security Bureau officials to sign pledges agreeing not to let black people enter their premises.

"Uniformed Public Security Bureau officers came into the bar recently and told me not to serve black people or Mongolians," said the co-owner of a western-style bar, who asked not to be named.

The local authorities have been cracking down on blacks and Mongolians in an attempt to stamp out drug dealing and prostitution ahead of the Games, the proprietors said.

A few months ago, police launched a violent sting on black men drinking in the Sanlitun bar district, and a notorious nightclub largely populated by Mongolian prostitutes was also shut down.

Security officials are targeting Sanlitun, which Olympic organisers expect to be a key destination for foreign tourists looking for a party during the Games.

The pledges that Sanlitun bar owners had been instructed to sign agreed to stop a variety of activities in their establishments, including dancing and serving customers with black skin, they said.

They have been allowed to keep copies of all the pledges except those relating to blacks, implying that the authorities are wary of charges of racism.

"I am appalled," said a black British national who works in Beijing. "I understand that the government is trying to stop certain illegal activities, but I don't think blanket discrimination is going about it the right way.

"Chinese people are prejudiced, but I would have hoped that the government would set a better example as it debuts on the world stage."

Calls to Dongcheng district and Chaoyang district public security bureaus, which oversee the bar districts, went unanswered.

The authorities' attempt to keep unwanted behaviour from damaging the squeaky-clean image of the Games is the latest example of heavy-handedness that critics say is killing the party spirit of the Olympics.

During the Athens Olympics four years ago, bars and nightclubs were allowed to stay open all night. But venues in Beijing that are not being shut down during the Games will have to close at 2am and maintain tight security.

"The officials told me to inform my customers that they must at all times carry their passports or ID cards," said one bar owner.

"Security is important, but Beijing is becoming a fortress, and that's not attractive."

Rumours that all bars within 2km of an Olympic venue will need to close remain unconfirmed, with many managers complaining that they still have not been told whether they will be allowed to open or not. Several bars have been raided in the past few weeks as local police step up a campaign of low-level intimidation, according to several witness accounts.

Bar and restaurant managers in Sanlitun have been instructed to remove tables from footpaths in a crude attempt to prevent fighting in the streets.

"The local police told us to get rid of the tables because they're scared that if too many foreigners congregate outside there could be trouble," said Song Xun , who runs a burrito joint in the area.

Local musicians say that a clampdown on live music risks stifling Beijing's thriving cultural scene and giving Olympic tourists the false impression that the city is artistically anaemic.

Several popular live music venues have been shut or instructed to stop all outdoor shows, and club owners complain they have got used to strange new guests nursing a beer for hours and suspiciously observing everything around them.

"The whole music scene is angry and bewildered. It is impossible to understand how keeping tourists from seeing an open, culturally vibrant and diverse Beijing is possibly a good thing for anyone," said one well-known figure in the local music industry.

David Mitchell, a Beijing-based jazz musician, said it had become increasingly difficult for his band to find anywhere to play.

"It appears the local government is trying to control every aspect of the experience that foreigners get when they come here," he said.

"Everything is aimed at creating stability, but they don't understand that is precisely the unfounded prejudice that foreigners have of Chinese society - that it is a highly controlled and not a very cultural place. It seems completely self-defeating."

« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 09:33:51 AM by pipsqueak »
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Cernunnos

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #75 on: August 16, 2008, 10:12:00 AM »


Your umbrage at my use of "western" media is misplaced because
I said that I use the term loosely. I myself posted links from more credible
sources, NYT and BBC, which are "western" and make no mention of teeth.
It is some of the typical rags which indulge in the Peter Lalor form of
journalism which I was targeting.

You can deride the blogs as much as you want. Yes they have
mushroomed a lot, but I can also discern which one has some
substance and which one has not. This blog seemed very extensive
and well researched, with over 150 user comments. There are logical
arguments backing their analysis. And as a matter
of fact, they actually condemned the switch! Just because they
come from a blogger, I don't see why I should ignore the force
of their arguments.

The fact is they took the trouble of posting youtube links of the video
(more than 6 minutes of it) and a full Chinese/English translation of
what he said. It's beyond belief that if Chen indeed mentioned about
her ugliness, no one will blow the whistle.

On the other hand, what is the evidence that he talked about Peiyi's
so called ugliness? If Chen really said she had a chubby face and
ugly teeth, why is it so hard to bring out the exact transcript or quote?
There is not one full transcript used by the Times/Telegraph out in
the public. And everything they put in actual quotes seem to match
with the supposedly doctored transcripts!

Why did every newspaper put "flawless image and feelings" under
quotes and not crooked teeth? This is not a simple matter of semantics.
This is a deliberate ploy to put words in the mouth of the organisers
and it needs to be looked into seriously. Finally you come up with
an SCMP quote 5 days after - maybe 5 days is what it takes to say
a lie enough to make it into the truth! The credibility of SCMP is severely
dented because they themselves didn't put ugly teeth under quotes
in their report from the previous day!

Finally, for the hundredth time, it is not enough to be a pretty face.
The organisers were also looking for expressions, feelings! If I were
in charge, I would be more worried about which girl would maintain
their self confidence and poise in the face of so much pressure, rather
than obsess about looks! Wth Peiyi only 7 years old and doing this
for the first time, it is understandable they would go for the 9 year
old who has the experience of doing this previously.
Those who want to reduce this debate to solely about looks, sadly
reveal their own one-track mind, IMHO.

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prfsr

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #76 on: August 16, 2008, 12:27:37 PM »

I have wasted my time reading some more blog entries on the foolsmountain blog. Their arguments are all directed towards bashing the West (rightfully or otherwise) and the arguments rather thin. They are apologists for their country, which is fine. Good on them. But in my mind it ranks them nowhere near a newspaper. Just one quick example.

http://blog.foolsmountain.com/2008/08/16/


Quote
[Additional Note]

This post is prompted by a Washington Post article “Burdened By China’s Gold Standard” written by Ariana Eunjung Cha. Ms. Cha quoted a single comment left on the Tiexue Forum after Du Li was unable to defend her title in the woman’s 10m air rifle event, which produced the first gold of the Beijing Olympic game

The state spent so much money on you, provided you with such good facilities, gave you four years to train . . . You disappoint your countrymen.

to establish the theme of the article

In China’s obsessive quest to capture more medals than any other country at the Summer Games, the performance of every athlete has been deemed critically important. So those who have fallen short of expectations — securing a silver instead of a gold, or worse, winning no medal at all — have been vilified.

I am not going to discuss Ms. Cha’s professionalism in journalism, lest someone accuse me of obsessing with boring and minor stuff in “western media” again. But her single data point statistics surprised me since my impression of the public reaction to Du Li’s 5th place finish was one overwhelmingly sympathetic and supportive. So I went to Tiexue to look for her source. I couldn’t find it but ran into this article and thought it interesting for our English readers.


So the criticism is based on the absence of one comment on a bulletin board in a country where there is no censorship ever. It also deflects the attention cleverly from the main focus of the article to one sentence "At that point, Chinese spectators let her have it.".  She also refers to multiple bulletin board comments, which may or may not have been there or have been removed later.

Maybe one day blogs would substitute for peer-reviewed and/or editorially reviewed publications but not today.


PS: I would not normally waste time on a random blog run by seeming Chinese apologists -- I know people in real life who would say the same things to me in person. This is more out of respect for Ceru, who is a reasonable and knowledgable poster.
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feverpitch

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #77 on: August 16, 2008, 12:47:03 PM »

Fever
I will defer to you since you have firsthand experience. I am sure every paper has its bias but you insinuate that they manufacture news. If that happens frequently, I would be beyond disappointing.
Any comments CLR?

Actually, 'manufacture' would be too strong a word. I'd rather use the word 'suggest'. Particularly by omissions and comissions. And in that they are not alone... every news source does the same i believe... imho, indian ones do it prolly a little bit more than the rest.

which is why i am less afraid of the cpim mouthpiece... the ganashakti... it's like what zizek says about airbrushing under stalin... everyone knew about it... and everyone who had to, participated in the process... did that make the average russian believe in the pravda newspaper any more? i guess not! however, it's those newspapers who grandiloquently claim that they create history that i am afraid about... the nyt's and the abp's... they are the really scary stuff...
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pipsqueak

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #78 on: August 16, 2008, 01:02:43 PM »


Your umbrage at my use of "western" media is misplaced because
I said that I use the term loosely. I myself posted links from more credible
sources, NYT and BBC, which are "western" and make no mention of teeth.
It is some of the typical rags which indulge in the Peter Lalor form of
journalism which I was targeting.

You should add Guardian also to your list of rags!

Quote
You can deride the blogs as much as you want. Yes they have
mushroomed a lot, but I can also discern which one has some
substance and which one has not. This blog seemed very extensive
and well researched, with over 150 user comments. There are logical
arguments backing their analysis. And as a matter
of fact, they actually condemned the switch! Just because they
come from a blogger, I don't see why I should ignore the force
of their arguments.

The fact is they took the trouble of posting youtube links of the video
(more than 6 minutes of it) and a full Chinese/English translation of
what he said. It's beyond belief that if Chen indeed mentioned about
her ugliness, no one will blow the whistle.

I do not deride ALL blogs. I pick and choose them carefully, either based on my familiarity with the owner of the blog OR after reading them for a period and being assured of their worth.

How do you know that the youtube video out there has not been doctored? You think the Chinese who implemented a prompt and total blackout of the incident wouldn't take pains to ensure that videos are wiped off youtube? If they do have a video there, I would view it with great suspicion, in view of their established talent with smoke and mirrors.

Quote
On the other hand, what is the evidence that he talked about Peiyi's
so called ugliness? If Chen really said she had a chubby face and
ugly teeth, why is it so hard to bring out the exact transcript or quote?
There is not one full transcript used by the Times/Telegraph out in
the public. And everything they put in actual quotes seem to match
with the supposedly doctored transcripts!

Why did every newspaper put "flawless image and feelings" under
quotes and not crooked teeth? This is not a simple matter of semantics.
This is a deliberate ploy to put words in the mouth of the organisers
and it needs to be looked into seriously. Finally you come up with
an SCMP quote 5 days after - maybe 5 days is what it takes to say
a lie enough to make it into the truth! The credibility of SCMP is severely
dented because they themselves didn't put ugly teeth under quotes
in their report from the previous day!

Again, I repeat - tell me why an allegedly PRO-CHINA newspaper fabricates stories damaging China, sitting inside China? I really haven't had the time to search the SCMP site to find all related articles and post them here in chronologically.The news was FIRST reported every where on Aug 13 (Aug 12 in the US) and this is an article from Aug 14. 5 days? how? You are free to see ulterior motives in their quotes but this isn't a "western rag". What drives them to slander Chen/BJ? If you look up up the recent history of SCMP, you will find that they were recently accused of firing some of their china critics!


Quote

Finally, for the hundredth time, it is not enough to be a pretty face.
The organisers were also looking for expressions, feelings! If I were
in charge, I would be more worried about which girl would maintain
their self confidence and poise in the face of so much pressure, rather
than obsess about looks! Wth Peiyi only 7 years old and doing this
for the first time, it is understandable they would go for the 9 year
old who has the experience of doing this previously.
Those who want to reduce this debate to solely about looks, sadly
reveal their own one-track mind, IMHO.



I see. I suppose the following requirements for Olympic hostesses set by the Chinese authorities was also in pursuit of something beyond "pretty face(and body)'? Yeah, they do mention that they will look for intelligence - so do the beauty contest organizers when they ask questions to the finalists! To me, it is crystal clear that the real singer did not meet the "flawlessness" standard and was dumped. She was the winner of the national singing competition and isn't new to performing.

China searches for Olympic medal ceremony hostesses with ideal looks
(Xinhua)
Updated: 2008-02-15 20:51

 SHANGHAI - Young Chinese women whose "eye length is three-tenths of the face" and who have leveled shoulders and curvaceous thighs now have a competitive edge in joining the Olympic Games in August.

In another example of meticulous planning for the Summer Games, organizers are scouting for 40 hostesses among students in Shanghai's 10 universities -- with extremely detailed standards in appearance and body shape, local media reported.

According to the requirement, candidates should be between 18 and 24 and 1.68 and 1.78 meters in height. They should have a "ruddy and shiny complexion", "elastic skin" and "a plump but not fat body".

They should be built in such a way that helps demonstrate "the healthy and encouraging beauty of human bodies", added the requirement.

It also set strict standards on facial features, including the ratio between the "width of the nose and the length of the face", "width of the mouth and width between the pupils", Shanghai's Xinmin Evening News reported.

The candidates would also be judged from their demeanor and intellectual qualities (HA HA!) by a panel of experts and have to go through three rounds of competitions before being selected.

Shanghai is the only place other than Beijing where Olympic organizers are searching for medal ceremony hostesses.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90779/90867/6355342.html
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 10:02:48 PM by pipsqueak »
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pipsqueak

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Re: How to stage a successful Olympics - Chinese tip #23
« Reply #79 on: August 16, 2008, 01:34:22 PM »

Olympics Opening: "Fake" ethnic minority children at Olympic opening ceremony


Beijing (dpa) - The children wearing traditional costumes displaying the unity of China's 56 ethnic groups at the opening ceremony of the Beijing Games were all members of the Han Chinese majority, an official confirmed Friday.

Wang Wei, vice-president of Beijing's organizing committee BOCOG confirmed news reports, saying the practice was "completely normal."

"It is a tradition in China that at events costumes of the different ethnic groups are worn to symbolize that they live together peacefully and in happiness," he said.

An official guide to the opening stated that the children came from the 56 ethnic groups.

He accused a journalist as being "overly meticulous", who questioned how Han Chinese could portray Tibetans or Uighurs, groups where considerable tension with the government existed.

"That is not worth mentioning," Wang said.

The "fake" minority children are the third exposed manipulation of the opening ceremony, which was watched by around 2 billion people worldwide.

Earlier reports unveiled that the little girl performing the "Hymn to the Motherland" was lip-synching to a pre-recorded voice of another girl. The original singer was banned from performing because a high-ranking party functionary regarded her not pretty enough.

Chinese state TV CCTV also reported that images of 29 footprint fireworks at the opening night had been partly generated by computer graphics and were digitally enhanced.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/sportsplus/sportsplus.php?id=129656
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