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gouravk

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #80 on: March 01, 2006, 09:21:37 PM »

ooooo azza !! what a player !! im still taken back to those good old days when we used to sneak out of school to watch him thrash klusener and the other south africans.
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Sahir

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #81 on: March 01, 2006, 09:24:05 PM »

Sahir,

Unfortunately, I can offer my former self as a counter-example. In my high school days, I used to be thoroughly besotted with azhar's languid elegance and so on. These were the days before any confirmed reports about match-fixing, but even in those days azhar was clearly far from the most dependable batsman in the team. He would stroll his way to a silky 10 or 15 and then find the softest ways to get out--much like laxman today, only worse. Of course, the fact that he played in the same team as tendulkar made his deficiencies that much more evident. Yet, I used to go around saying that I would rather watch azhar score 10 than watch anyone else score a century, and I meant it. This was a case of elevation of style over results rather than emotional investment per se, but I was clearly favouring an outcome that was not optimal for the team without being any less of a cricket fan (I would certainly have visited this dg if it had been around then). 

But, did you have a gut feeling that Azhar would eventually get back to near his best, which was much better than someone else could offer?
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senthilpeter

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #82 on: March 01, 2006, 09:28:32 PM »

Sahir, if its player-independent, I'm afraid we will never be able to draw a line. Any ridiculous fan sentiment will pass the test and hence be a pro_India stance. For example, if I wish to have all eleven Noel Davids in the side, am I being a bit too emtionally influenced or just balanced in thinking thats the best combo for the country?

I think at some point you will be forced to make the call whether someone is either cricketing-wise dumb, by reading too much into one player's abilities (say Noel) OR he is emotionally attached to not see that there are better players around.

So a blanket statement like no matter which player, people arguing for a certain player's inclusion have the team's interests at heart is at best only theoretically valid and decidedly conciliatory. Correct?



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j

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #83 on: March 01, 2006, 09:28:44 PM »

Sahir,

Unfortunately, I can offer my former self as a counter-example. In my high school days, I used to be thoroughly besotted with azhar's languid elegance and so on. These were the days before any confirmed reports about match-fixing, but even in those days azhar was clearly far from the most dependable batsman in the team. He would stroll his way to a silky 10 or 15 and then find the softest ways to get out--much like laxman today, only worse. Of course, the fact that he played in the same team as tendulkar made his deficiencies that much more evident. Yet, I used to go around saying that I would rather watch azhar score 10 than watch anyone else score a century, and I meant it. This was a case of elevation of style over results rather than emotional investment per se, but I was clearly favouring an outcome that was not optimal for the team without being any less of a cricket fan (I would certainly have visited this dg if it had been around then). 

But, did you have a gut feeling that Azhar would eventually get back to near his best, which was much better than someone else could offer?
never. he clearly seemed suspicious when he started getting run out while strolling, not grounding his bat, getting out stumped and filmsily nicked the ball outside the off stump. It was quite clear that something was black in the dal by the way Azza was batting in the last 30-40 matches.
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vsiddharth

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #84 on: March 01, 2006, 09:33:37 PM »

Sahir: one always hopes, but in this case it was hoping against hope. I think I always knew in my heart of hearts that azhar would not contribute as much a tendulkar and some others. And in any case the way I framed it (azhar 10 > tendulkar 100) made performance in terms of team contribution pretty much moot.

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Sahir

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #85 on: March 01, 2006, 09:36:38 PM »

Sahir, if its player-independent, I'm afraid we will never be able to draw a line. Any ridiculous fan sentiment will pass the test and hence be a pro_India stance. For example, if I wish to have all eleven Noel Davids in the side, am I being a bit too emtionally influenced or just balanced in thinking thats the best combo for the country?

I think at some point you will be forced to make the call whether someone is either cricketing-wise dumb, by reading too much into one player's abilities (say Noel) OR he is emotionally attached to not see that there are better players around.

So a blanket statement like no matter which player, people arguing for a certain player's inclusion have the team's interests at heart is at best only theoretically valid and decidedly conciliatory. Correct?

The player has to invoke widespread passion, otherwise, a single person's rantings and ravings will always be labeled as lunacy.  The more passion amongst a greater audience, the more the statement holds true-- so, in the abstract, but not entirely only theoretical.
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gouravk

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #86 on: March 01, 2006, 09:41:14 PM »

So basically the player has to be a star - the star quality and charisma is more important than cricketing ability or achievements ?
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Sahir

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #87 on: March 01, 2006, 09:46:06 PM »

So basically the player has to be a star - the star quality and charisma is more important than cricketing ability or achievements ?

No-- the player's star quality and following is what gets his believers to have a near infinite amount of belief in his cricketing ability.
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j

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #88 on: March 01, 2006, 09:49:20 PM »

So basically the player has to be a star - the star quality and charisma is more important than cricketing ability or achievements ?

No-- the player's star quality and following is what gets his believers to have a near infinite amount of belief in his cricketing ability.
Nope- This does not seem possible in Indian cricket where people have no patience at all. One failure and people start talking about career is over. This happened with SRt recently so no one is spared. This is valid in Bollywood but not in Indian Cricket. People have to consistently perform in order to pass through 24/7 scanner
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gouravk

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #89 on: March 01, 2006, 09:50:58 PM »

Yes and one good innings and people are willing to elevate the player to a god status too ...
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Sahir

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #90 on: March 01, 2006, 09:51:37 PM »

So basically the player has to be a star - the star quality and charisma is more important than cricketing ability or achievements ?

No-- the player's star quality and following is what gets his believers to have a near infinite amount of belief in his cricketing ability.
Nope- This does not seem possible in Indian cricket where people have no patience at all. One failure and people start talking about career is over. This happened with SRt recently so no one is spared. This is valid in Bollywood but not in Indian Cricket. People have to consistently perform in order to pass through 24/7 scanner

Not talking about whether they will get though the scanner-- you are right, they won't.  I am explaining the severe dichotomy of opinion that may exist.
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senthilpeter

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #91 on: March 01, 2006, 09:51:54 PM »

So basically the player has to be a star - the star quality and charisma is more important than cricketing ability or achievements ?

No-- the player's star quality and following is what gets his believers to have a near infinite amount of belief in his cricketing ability.

Partially valid, cos i cannot sneak in Noel David then (given he doesnt have too many fans). But...

what if you take the case of a Sania Mirza who is clearly not topnotch tennis but is a massive star... mainly in India. One can say its cos we dont have tennis players as good. Now, what if the man in our question, SG commands a greater than usual share of popularity cos he hails from a place that has not seen too many cricketing greats and tends also to have very attached fans?

In any case, you are actually saying that its player-dependent, only we'll measure a player by popularity/fan-following?
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Sahir

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #92 on: March 01, 2006, 10:00:46 PM »

Yes senthilpeter, that is an accurate analysis.
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j

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #93 on: March 01, 2006, 10:02:44 PM »

So basically the player has to be a star - the star quality and charisma is more important than cricketing ability or achievements ?

No-- the player's star quality and following is what gets his believers to have a near infinite amount of belief in his cricketing ability.
In any case, you are actually saying that its player-dependent, only we'll measure a player by popularity/fan-following?
Not we, unless we have to sell coke, pepsi etc
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gouravk

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #94 on: March 01, 2006, 10:03:47 PM »

Hmmm so bottomline is it is the POPULARITY of the player that counts not his ABILITY or PERFORMANCE
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j

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #95 on: March 01, 2006, 10:07:31 PM »

Hmmm so bottomline is it is the POPULARITY of the player that counts not his ABILITY or PERFORMANCE
It depends on what one wants to do. If one has to sell coke/pepsi etc popularity counts. if one is interested in cricket per se, ability/performance counts. If you want to watch good acting, you would prefer Aamir Khan, Anil kapoor etc and if you want star material you might go for Salman, John Abraham an to an extent SRK
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Sahir

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #96 on: March 01, 2006, 10:09:58 PM »

Hmmm so bottomline is it is the POPULARITY of the player that counts not his ABILITY or PERFORMANCE

No-- still misinterpreting; like I answered earlier "No-- the player's star quality and following is what gets his believers to have a near infinite amount of belief in his cricketing ability."  For example, you have an emotional attachment to Laxman's artistry, which allows you, along with many others, admittedly myself included, to provide the batsman greater leeway, based on your belief that he will rediciver his regal touch.  Many could ealily use statistics based on performance over the past 2 years to severely dispute that, but it would be your belief in his abilitites, regardless of performance over the past two years that would put you in his corner.  Not saying it is right or wrong, but that one man's blindness is another man's faith.
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gouravk

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #97 on: March 01, 2006, 10:13:34 PM »

But Laxman's artistry is part of cricketing skill. Not the conventional star qualities you think of like - good looks, pithy sound bites, etc etc.
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Sahir

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #98 on: March 01, 2006, 10:18:44 PM »

But Laxman's artistry is part of cricketing skill. Not the conventional star qualities you think of like - good looks, pithy sound bites, etc etc.

I agree, but artistic value is always in the eye of the beholder.  I'm sure there are many Ganguly backers that love to watch his drives through the offside and him skipping down the pitch to launch huge sixes against spinners.  Just like we yearn to see Laxman at his best again, using those wonderful wrists, hitting the legspinners against the turn, coming down the pitch and hitting them through covers, and the glorious cover drives, I'm sure Ganguly backers want to once again see him loft the spinners, and firmly believe he can do so.  Just like you may say Ganguly's artistry is finished, many may say Laxman's artistry is finished as well.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 10:44:36 PM by Sahir »
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justforkix

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #99 on: March 01, 2006, 10:34:05 PM »

I agree Sahir. You are zigactly echoing my thoughts.
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dhruvdeepak

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #100 on: March 01, 2006, 10:35:29 PM »

right, agreed with Sahir's last post there.
Artistry or the aesthetic pleasure in seeing someone bat does not translate into runs or wins
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gouravk

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #101 on: March 01, 2006, 11:16:17 PM »

But I do think that Ganguly-backers back him less for his drives and sixes than his so many other qualities - removing shirt at Lords, standing up to the Aussies and English, being a rebel etc etc
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justforkix

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #102 on: March 01, 2006, 11:22:54 PM »

But I do think that Ganguly-backers back him less for his drives and sixes than his so many other qualities - removing shirt at Lords, standing up to the Aussies and English, being a rebel etc etc

So, what will be your stance on Ganguly, had Nagpur not happened ?
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gouravk

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #103 on: March 01, 2006, 11:24:51 PM »

If ifs and ands were pots and pans there would be no tinkers ...
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justforkix

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #104 on: March 01, 2006, 11:30:01 PM »

OK. If you are against SG for non-cricketing reasons, then it is not correct for you to question other folks who may be in support of including SG for non-cricketing reasons.
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gouravk

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #105 on: March 01, 2006, 11:32:38 PM »

Non-cricketing reasons are just part of it. And I was not questioning them. Just saying how factors like show off and attitude are sometimes deemed more important than dedication hard work and ability and performance.
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justforkix

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #106 on: March 01, 2006, 11:35:58 PM »

That "dedication" and "hard work" or lack thereof applies to the artist as well.
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gouravk

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #107 on: March 01, 2006, 11:36:35 PM »

Absolutely not, IMO.
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Jai

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #108 on: March 01, 2006, 11:39:37 PM »

But I do think that Ganguly-backers back him less for his drives and sixes than his so many other qualities - removing shirt at Lords, standing up to the Aussies and English, being a rebel etc etc

So what's the problem with being a rebel? Even Rehman got inspired by SG and put the rebel theme into a song in RDB.
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justforkix

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #109 on: March 01, 2006, 11:44:36 PM »

Absolutely not, IMO.

There you go. Why he is a poor fielder ? why is he a poor or slow runner between the wickets ? why is he so inconsistent in his scores, especially in the last 2 years ?
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jaat69

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #110 on: March 02, 2006, 07:00:24 AM »

Absolutely not, IMO.

plaese.......is it a sin to expect some consistency from you?!
you are outdoing yourself and your god-speak on most occasions! :D
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feverpitch

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #111 on: March 02, 2006, 05:20:54 PM »

The funny thing is that this man talks about making others "better people" as part of his goal.

What kind of better people do you think Rev Chappell and Pastor Fraser are trying to make out of our players? Crusaders?
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colonel

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #112 on: March 02, 2006, 09:17:35 PM »

as with the historical crusades, convert us from gangutheistic pagans into enlightened gangucidals?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2006, 09:24:36 PM by colonel »
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gouravk

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #113 on: March 02, 2006, 10:06:51 PM »

He is not as inconsistent as SG even in the last 2 years. Well he is because SG was consistently poor. But then again even that does not mean that he lacks dedication and hard work.
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justforkix

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #114 on: March 02, 2006, 10:17:22 PM »

But then again even that does not mean that he lacks dedication and hard work.

Yup, if SG averages 27 in 2 years, it is because of lack of dedication and hard work. But if VVS averages 31 in those 2 years, it is because Artists should be allowed some leeway wrt consistency  ::) ::)
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senthilpeter

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #115 on: March 02, 2006, 10:31:51 PM »

But then again even that does not mean that he lacks dedication and hard work.

Yup, if SG averages 27 in 2 years, it is because of lack of dedication and hard work. But if VVS averages 31 in those 2 years, it is because Artists should be allowed some leeway wrt consistency  ::) ::)

no man, its cos he had to live under the tyranny of Dada and ... and yeah, he started the whole thing with his 281  ;D

hey can someone post VVS's stats as non-opener in Tests? Thanks, myself a bit too lazy.
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justforkix

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #116 on: March 02, 2006, 10:39:34 PM »

myself a bit too lazy.

Tell us something new and that we don't know already  ;D ;D
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cardus

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #117 on: March 03, 2006, 12:26:14 AM »

no man, its cos he had to live under the tyranny of Dada

You mean, like the other catastrophies and international events that have been perpetrated by Dada and his wicked religious guru...

Like:

1. The Katrina Hurricane
2. The South Asian Tsunami
3. Rahul Dravid's newborn
4. Tresco's truant wife!
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senthilpeter

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #118 on: March 03, 2006, 12:38:15 AM »

no man, its cos he had to live under the tyranny of Dada

You mean, like the other catastrophies and international events that have been perpetrated by Dada and his wicked religious guru...

Like:

1. The Katrina Hurricane
2. The South Asian Tsunami
3. Rahul Dravid's newborn
4. Tresco's truant wife!


hesus... you indeed have a sense of proportion.  ;)
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justforkix

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Re: GC "bares" it all
« Reply #119 on: March 03, 2006, 12:46:28 AM »

1. The Katrina Hurricane
2. The South Asian Tsunami
3. Rahul Dravid's newborn
4. Tresco's truant wife!

And Ganguly did not play the 2nd ODI against Bangladesh, which was on December 26 - The day of the tsunami. SO, SG doesen't even have a proper alibi.
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